So I'm assuming you'd say the Callidus assasins weapon that inflicts instant death negatable?Originally Posted by Vandraz
So I'm assuming you'd say the Callidus assasins weapon that inflicts instant death negatable?
Win/Ties/Loss:
Tau 27/2/8 2009, 5/0/2 2012, 1/0/0 2013
Greyknights 17/3/4 2011, 47/4/11 2012
I wouldnt want to say yes or no, as I have never came across 1 in a game and I never bothered to read the callidus assassains rules when I looked at the codex... so I couldnt tell you a thing about it =)
"Fight for survival or face extinction"
basically it just inflicts instant death regardless of the models toughness. It's not a psychic test to activate it just always is.
The issue is if nemesis force weapons give a units attacks "instant death" which is just a attribute really or if it's something that targets or is cast on the wolf tail...
Normal force weapons it's very clear on, but your argument of psychic bestowing it on the weapon which "hinders" a unit fails when we reach str on models without any "weapon"
for the sake of argument let's say a IC joined a squad of kroot hounds and did hammer hands, would the wolf tail get a roll against the hammer hands? it's exactly as many steps removed as your example, and yet it clearly is not allowed a save as it's just a increase of a attribute. Like others have said, how far back in the chain do you look? Could you use tail against a unit being transported with the librarian teleport power because that squad will shoot at the wolf tail then and thus his power will affect that unit?
It's fairly clear that it's impractical to look beyond immediate targets of psychic powers, or immediate effects. some templates have no target but whatever they are placed over are "affected" and clearly get a save. Likewise without a target abilities that need one don't trigger ie aegis doesn't affect jaws of the world wolf (whatever it's name is) because it technically has no target.
Likewise the instant death despite the targets toughness ability like the callidus has is bestowed on the unit. Activation of these force weapons merely bestow a trait on the unit in this case instant death regardless of toughness. It is exactly as many steps removed as str buff and while the effects are different, does the affects the units to the exact same degree.
Win/Ties/Loss:
Tau 27/2/8 2009, 5/0/2 2012, 1/0/0 2013
Greyknights 17/3/4 2011, 47/4/11 2012
If it does not have to take a psychic test and that is just the weapons rules then i would say in the callidus example they would not get WTT. With hammer hand I would also say they wouldnt get it as its similar to the guide example, the abilty is on the unit and even though more models may die through the increased strength there is no debuff or abilty that gets passed onto the SW unit. Where as insta death from NFW comes from the psychic power and is passed onto the unit in question, it goes past just increasing the basic statline of a unit. I would also say they wouldnt get it against gate of infinity because the psychic power isnt getting passed onto the SW, the librarian is using the power to teleport himself and if he then decides to shoot the unit then fair play as the psychic power doesnt touch them in anyway.
"Fight for survival or face extinction"
Its been mentioned before earlier in the thread by other people but I am saying it again... NFW are still effectively FW as per the BRB. So if a libby wants to insta death with the force weapon he cant use any other psychic power that turn, because insta death via a FW requires the use of a psychic power.
"Fight for survival or face extinction"
To many people like to read to far into it, to try and find ways of bending rules and start saying "but its worded ever so slightly different". IMO I think some people need to remember its a game and you dont have to win all the time, a game is suppose to be light hearted and fun. Besides its good to lose, you learn from losing =) People can slag Matt Ward off all they want but alot of people are just as bad, by trying to make their army lists even better through taking the rules off in a complete tangent.
"Fight for survival or face extinction"
Personally I always thought it effected the weapon rather than the target, I'm not convinced by how your applying effected to the situation, still its interesting because by how you apply it my Paladins Ageis rule will also effect enemy nemsis force weapons trying to effect my Paladins, this would certainly make the dreadnoughts rule a lot more interesting, I would point out how you have applied effected means you would also get to use it against hammerhand, wounding on a 3+ rather than a 4+ certainly effects the unit in question.
Honestly this whole debate really seems like space wolf players have started to but thunderwolves and don't like them be slaughtered by grey knights.
While I agree "it's just a game" I don't think that should be an excuse to disregard the rules...one could just as easily say "go ahead and let the SW player make a WTT roll against anyting they want, it's going to fail more often than it will work and if you're basing your battle plan around psychic powers then that's your issue."And without a clear answer someone is going to feel that they are being cheated...either the SW player for not being allowed a roll when they think they should get one, or the psychic power user for feeling like the SW player is overreaching with their interpreatation of counts as being affected.
That's supposed to be why we discuss things like this...is there a precedence somewhere that helps us solve this, and if not, what is the most practical interpretation that lets us get on with the game with the least bad feelings?
You use a power, something happens to my model(s)...I still find it very hard to accept a claim that the power isn't affecting my unit. And that is all the rule requires...a psychic power and an effect on a unit. The fact that there are not further qualifiers is what creates discussions (or debates if you prefer) like these.
From the OP it seemed more like two players having a discussion about some of the vagaries of the rules and bringing it to the forum to see what others think. Again, Grey Knights Force Weapons was only one of a few situations laid out in the OP and did not appear to me to be the specific question to be addressed.
And finally, I don't play Space Wolves so I don't really have a horse in this race...I just find it an interesting topic, as I do many of those in which the rules are unclear or incomplete.
You should specify then what you mean. Indirect effect means something affecting the subject in a manner that isn't direct. Every example I gave you was indirect. So, what about the case of multiple Hammerhands/Might of Ancients on one GK unit to the point where they inflict Instant Death? They are definitely boosted, and any ID would be the cause, but that would be cast on the Grey Knights themselves. It's certainly easier for them to inflict a wound (2+ instead of 4+ for wounds). And, if you say the powers are negated, how many of the Hammerhands/ Might of Ancients are negated in the case where it definitely contributed to the wound, if you feel they should be negated? Only 2 of the buffs were required to make the GKs wound on a 2+, so 2 of the buffs wouldn't have had any effect on making it easier to wound.
And, if you say in the case of ID that the buffs wouldn't be cancelled, what's the difference between buffing the weapon to cause ID and buffing the person so that he can cause ID?
Have you looked at the forum rules in any of that time? I ask because of the multiple posts in a row that you did, which is generally frowned upon in these parts and is usually the sign of someone new to posting here.I only mentioned being new because if you've been reading the rules forums since 2009 you should know better than to try to make snarky comments about people arguing one way just because it benefits their armies, when the proof in the threads most often is that it has nothing to do at all with it.
And, yes, things tend to be debated in circles, but sometimes new points come up in the debates - trying to tackle the Hammerhand part is relatively new in the debate (as opposed to people just ignoring the original point Egaeus rose).
And it's also been mentioned earlier in the thread by multiple people but I am saying it again - the wording in NFW overrides the sentence in the force weapon section that mentions the person being wounded being a target. It states that all wounds inflicted are ID wounds. So, you're back to direct vs indirect effects. And, in the case of a multiple combat, if the GK activate the NFW against a unit that doesn't have a Wolf's tail, then doesn't that shoot down your whole argument a few posts up about having to take the psychic test, because in this case they aren't taking it against the unit that can negate psychic tests?
Last edited by DoctorTom; 07-04-2012 at 18:43.
The main contention I have with this is that up until the point that you roll to activate NFWs they are just "regular" Force Weapons...the GK must hit and wound and have the wound actually be applied to a model...the difference comes in that instead of choosing one model the effect is applied to every model that has been wounded (unless I am missing something multiple Instant Death wounds aren't any more effective than just one) and works off a single roll. And I have contended and will continue to believe that this was done more for simplicity's sake, as otherwise one would have to keep track of which models actually hit/wounded which other models and then make multiple psychic tests to see if instant death is actually inflicted, which would be a huge pain. Of course this does have the side effect of making smaller units more effective since they have multiple attacks that can all benefit from the Force Weapon ability. But in the end I don't see NFWs in the hands of units with BoP (a very imporant distinction since it's really this rule interatction and not Nemesis Force Weapons themselves that cause the issue) as actually working differently than normal Force Wepaons.
Hmm...something else I haven't been thinking about is that in assult ICs are their own unit...so would the squad that an IC was joined to still count as "the unit he is with" for purposes of making a WTT save? This (or something similar) may be addressed somewhere already.
There is no doubt that it was done for simplicity's sake. however, it does not change that the rules as written do not allow you to create a target from the activation of nemesis force weapons. They clearly work differently than force weapons. It's as simple as instant death vs on target model and "all wounds inflicted cause instant death."
To extend abilities that only protect a unit from things that affect it. (which has distinction made of immediatly resolving against) to extending their protections a step away or more is ridiculous. Regardless of the why of how something was made, the manner in which it was written is what binds arguments here.
Nemesis force weapons clearly give a "buff" to the unit using it, in all other aspects except in instant death they act exactly like force weapons. Which are the following points. A) Bypass armour and B) require a psyker to activate and C) follow rules for activation of force weapons.
The point you're incorrectly drawing is that after C) comes the usual D) kill target. It has now been replaced with D2) All models in the unit now inflict instant death from unsaved wounds.
The difference between the nemesis force weapons activated in a squad is no different than the callidus blade.
the difference between hammer hands and activation of nemesis force weapons for abilities such as wolf tail are identical, because these affects are buffing the unit casting them, not affecting the unit with wolf tail.
Win/Ties/Loss:
Tau 27/2/8 2009, 5/0/2 2012, 1/0/0 2013
Greyknights 17/3/4 2011, 47/4/11 2012
My understanding is that they do not work differently. Note that the ability is not simply "take a psychic test and all wounds cause instant death", you still have to follow the rules for force weapons, in that you don't make the psychic test until after a model has suffered an unsaved wound (as that is the trigger for the power). If I assume your C) to include the "choose an opponent that was wounded" then at this point instead of choosing a single model every model in the opposing unit(s) becomes a potential victim for the power. So the functional changes to the normal rules are 1) All models in the opposing units are "targets" rather than just one and 2) Only one test is taken for the entire unit instead of one for each Force Weapon user.
I still haven't seen a good definition of "immediately resolving" that distinguishes which powers are liable for nullification and which ones aren't.
OK, I know I'm being a bit obtuse here but let's consider a basic Psychic Shooting Attack. I think everyone would agree that a PSA "affects" the unit it is used against, but when exactly is attempt to nullify it made?
-After the action is declared? For simplicity's sake we could make a roll right of the bat so as to not waste time, but strictly that's not what the rules say to do.
-After the psychic test is made to activate the power? Perhaps, but at this point there's really no reason to, unless we want to speed up the process, since then we have...
-After the roll to hit is made? Again, we could do it here, but there really hasn't been any affect on the unit, has there?
-After rolls to wound are made? Depending on the AP of the attacks, it might be here, but if not we still haven't determined that the power has actually affected the unit yet...
-After saves are failed? Now we have a result where the unit has defintely been affected. We could go on to casualty removal, but I would expect the roll to nulllify the power to be taken at this point to see if any models actually suffer any ill effects.
That's a pretty significant number of steps to arrive at a conclusion when the possibility is that a single die roll is simply going to make that all wasted work. And it seems to me that it doesn't really qualify as immediate...unless you are assuming that immediacy means "when you have completed the steps to use the power" at which point I would ask "How exactly then is 'I take a psychic test to make wounds cause instant death, your models die' any less direct or immediate?
As I understand it and mentioned in a previous exemple, the attempt to nullify should happen after the saves are failed. Because if the save is successful there was no real effects on the model or squad. The WTT save cannot be taken when the psychic test is made, that's the Runic Weapon's job. The Runic Weapon triggers on a psychic test, ANY psychic test not just those affecting the WTT bearing unit. The WTT is the last line of defense against a psychic attack.
I'll agree that their intent was a "simplicity's sake" kind of thing, but they changed it up in the execution. And, I'll agree that they're force weapons up to the point where you activate them. You don't go by what it says for activation in the main rulebook, you go by what it says for activation in the NFW rules. Unfortunately, the part about the target being the model that's wounded is in the one section of the original force weapon rules that you have to ignore because it's overwritten by the NFW rules. So, you don't have a statement saying the models are targeted any more, you have a rule saying that all wounds inflicted are instant death. They've changed how they work with the wording and, because of that, they don't work just like normal force weapons any more. You have an indirect effect. I wouldn't be surprised to see a FAQ which would make it revert back to being a direct affect, which would then allow Wolf Tail talismans and things that have a potential to negate or provide a save from targeted psychic powers to be able to be used. Until then, though, it's not a direct effect that targets the model, and we're in the grey area of indirect effects - and in a similar murky area about whether they can negate Hammerhands and Might of Ancients, and (if they can) exactly how many of those are negated when stacked on a unit when not all the powers were required to get the effect on the Wolves. Egaeus, I'd like to see your thoughts on this question. Let's pose it this way (since I might use this example for other things later) if you had 2 Might of Ancients and 2 Hammerhands stacked on one GKunit, it would only require a 2+ to wound instead of a 4+. if I roll to wound and all my to wound rolls are either a 1 or a 3+, then only one of the buffs was required to wound the Wolves. How many of the buffs would be negated? None? All? Only one?
Oh, and in your last post, good thought on the IC's being their own unit. If he's making the roll to avoid ID, then it's still during the part where he is separated from the rest of the unit. If the rest of the unit (before close combat) are one wound models, then ID wouldn't affect them and therefore there wouldn't be any rolling for the Wolf Tail Talisman against the rest of the group. Of course, I don't think there's any unit that has the whole unit equipped with WTTs either. So, really, this would only really be a question that would matter if you had an IC with a WTT attached to a Thunderwolf Cavalry unit, or a unit with an Attack Bike in it. It looks like in those cases only the IC gets the protection, so (if the ruling is the ID can be negated) then the canny Grey Knight player would attack the regular unit without the protection first. This would also mean (in cases where people would want to be able to negate Hammerhands and the like) only those against the IC with the Wolf Tail Talisman itself could be negated - if they had an effect.
I still think the argument that it's an "indirect" effect is something of a dodge...especially as there isn't anything in the WTT rules that says it has to be a "direct" effect, it just has to affect the unit with the Talisman. Nor is there any specific definition of what qualifies as a "direct" effect or not...that is something we've created on our own to discuss the issue. Which is why I've been harping on the Hammerhand issue, because there are "levels of indirectness" but (to my knowledge) there is nothing in the rules that specifically covers them. In a very broad sense I could simply claim that "If you take a psychic test and then something happens to my unit at any later point that can be traced back to the power usage then it is 'being affected by a psychic power'." Now it's much cleaner when we have a direct cause and effect chain (for example a PSA which has an immediate resolution) and I would readily agree that there is a point at which the causality chain becomes absurd but there are also times when I feel the model should really get a save to attempt to nullify the effects of a power.
While I can understand people's distaste for for the idea of negating buffs, I still find it hard to seperate the fact that if a unit is being wounded by rolls that are only succeeding because of a psychic power enhancement that it isn't the power "causing" those wounds, which means that the unit is being affected by the power, even if it is indirectly. In the case of multiple stacked powes and assuming a roll to nullify is allowed (which is still an odd proposition as it does require keeping track of the die rolls to wound, since one needs to know if the unit really is being affected by the power but it's no worse really then going through all the steps of using a PSA in my mind) then I would expect that one roll for each power would be made because each of those powers is affecting the unit.
Actually, if it were up to me, I would make the WTT roll(s) before any rolls to wound were made...at this point we would know if any hits are landing on the model with the WTT, so we know that he is being affected by the power. I know it's not strictly "what the rules say" but it seems to me it would prevent headaches and backtracking. While the phrasing "affected by" does imply after the fact I could see an argument that you can roll as soon as the effect comes into play...so in this case it would be before to-wound rolls are made because the effect is to change the target number for those rolls.
let's put it this way, if I have a psyker power that gives the unit a str of 50, regardless of the rule that you can't have a str greater than 10.
They now inflict instant death with all their melees, do you get tail save against it? no. it's not affecting the unit.
like wise nemesis force weapons when activated, grant the unit strikes that inflict instant death (in a manner identical to the callidus).
The power is not killing a person, it's granting the unit wielding it a attribute, the power is not affecting someone, it is giving a attribute that then causes something.
Win/Ties/Loss:
Tau 27/2/8 2009, 5/0/2 2012, 1/0/0 2013
Greyknights 17/3/4 2011, 47/4/11 2012
I am not convinced on the level of indirectness but for the sake of argument. In a case like this the unit would get 1 WTT save PER power. In this scenario, 4 saves. Final bonus will depend on the results.
It helps if you consider the degrees of seperation between the effect of a psychic power on the space wolf and the psychic test itself. You can figure this out if you follow the sequence of events backwards starting with the effect of the psychic power on the space wolf until you reach the psychic test.
So for example "Hammerhand" would look like this :
1) The space wolf suffers a wound (the ultimate effect of the psychic power on the space wolf)
2) The wound was the direct effect of a successful to wound roll
3) The successful to wound roll was the direct effect of (or immediately followed) a successful psychic test
There are 2 degrees of separation between the effect of the psychic power on the space wolf (the wound) and the test itself. You can see that "Hammerhand" has affected the space wolf indirectly.
And a "Force Weapon" would look like this :
1) The space wolf suffers Instant Death (the ultimate effect of the psychic power on the space wolf)
2) Instant Death was the direct effect of a successful psychic test
3) successful psychic test was the direct effect of (or immediately followed) a successful to wound roll - this step isn't needed but, as we have already reached the psychic test but I thought I would add it anyway. There must be a wound before the psychic test is taken.
As you can see there is only 1 degree of separation between the effect of the psychic power on the space wolf (instant death), and the test itself. I would say the space wolf has suffered a direct effect of a psychic power.
And a "Nemesis Force Weapon" would look like this :
1) The space wolf suffers Instant Death (the ultimate effect of the psychic power on the space wolf)
2) Instant Death was the direct effect of a successful psychic test
3) successful psychic test was the direct effect of (or immediately followed) a successful to wound roll
Again, there is only 1 degree of separation between the effect of the psychic power on the space wolf(instant death), and the test itself. I would say the space wolf has suffered a direct effect of a psychic power.
To carry on with other examples, "Guide" would look like this
1) The space wolf suffers a wound (the ultimate effect of the psychic power on the space wolf)
2) The wound was the direct effect of a successful to wound roll
3) The successful to wound roll was the direct effect of (or immediately followed) a successful to hit roll
4) The successful to hit roll roll was the direct effect (or immediately followed) a successful psychic test
In this example there are 3 degrees of separation between the effect of the psychic power on the space wolf (the wound) and the test itself. You can see that "Guide" has affected the space wolf indirectly.
So if we are to agree that WTT can only be used against psychic powers that directly affect the space wolf, then regular and nemesis flavoured force weapon's effects can both be nullified whereas hammer hand's and guide's cannot.
Last edited by Fle; 08-04-2012 at 16:37.
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edit: double post for some reason
I'm selling loads of Dark Eldar Check them out! and grab yourself a bargain!
And this is something I do disagree with, as it is not stated in the rules. As I have mentioned before the concept of "direct or indirect" in a construct of our making and is not defined anywhere in the rules.
What about something like "Warp Quake"?
1) The model suffers a Deep Strike Mishap result (The ultimate effect of the power)
2) The model ends up within 12" of the unit that cast Warp Quake (purposefully or accidentally)
3a-c?) The model is placed, a scatter roll is made, the final position of the model is determined
3) The model goes through the Deep Strike process, which in itself contains a number of steps (so it depends on how distinct one wants to be with events):
4) The WTT-bearing model successfully arrives from Reserve
5) A whole bunchof stuff happens during the GK player's turn (moving units, shooting with units, assaulting, and so on)
6) The unit makes a Psychic Test to activate Warp Quake
Holy cow, depending on how you want to count those steps that is a lot of "indirectness" there. But it doesn't matter, since the end effect is that the power affects the unit with the WTT which triggers its ability.
I keep tending to think that the test should be more along the lines of "what would be the result if the power weren't in effect?" Which again is why I keep using Hammerhand (I suppose I could just as easily use Might of Titan but Hammerhand is much more common), because the end result is "more wounds on the unit than it would normally take" which means to me the unit is most defintely being affected.
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