Space Wolves anti-psychic powers Wolf Tail

[Wolflord]

To me this is stricktly a direct response to a psychic power. If I use my GK and activate NF weapons, then I take the hit, since the weapon is affected, not me. If I cast warprift on my wolves, I would take a wtt save om my wolves.

[lantzkev]

It helps if you consider the degrees of seperation between the effect of a psychic power on the space wolf and the psychic test itself. You can figure this out if you follow the sequence of events backwards starting with the effect of the psychic power on the space wolf until you reach the psychic test.

So for example "Hammerhand" would look like this :

1) The space wolf suffers a wound (the ultimate effect of the psychic power on the space wolf)
2) The wound was the direct effect of a successful to wound roll
3) The successful to wound roll was the direct effect of (or immediately followed) a successful psychic test

There are 2 degrees of separation between the effect of the psychic power on the space wolf (the wound) and the test itself. You can see that "Hammerhand" has affected the space wolf indirectly.

And a "Force Weapon" would look like this :

1) The space wolf suffers Instant Death (the ultimate effect of the psychic power on the space wolf)
2) Instant Death was the direct effect of a successful psychic test
3) successful psychic test was the direct effect of (or immediately followed) a successful to wound roll - this step isn't needed but, as we have already reached the psychic test but I thought I would add it anyway. There must be a wound before the psychic test is taken.

As you can see there is only 1 degree of separation between the effect of the psychic power on the space wolf (instant death), and the test itself. I would say the space wolf has suffered a direct effect of a psychic power.

And a "Nemesis Force Weapon" would look like this :

1) The space wolf suffers Instant Death (the ultimate effect of the psychic power on the space wolf)
2) Instant Death was the direct effect of a successful psychic test
3) successful psychic test was the direct effect of (or immediately followed) a successful to wound roll

Again, there is only 1 degree of separation between the effect of the psychic power on the space wolf(instant death), and the test itself. I would say the space wolf has suffered a direct effect of a psychic power.

To carry on with other examples, "Guide" would look like this

1) The space wolf suffers a wound (the ultimate effect of the psychic power on the space wolf)
2) The wound was the direct effect of a successful to wound roll
3) The successful to wound roll was the direct effect of (or immediately followed) a successful to hit roll
4) The successful to hit roll roll was the direct effect (or immediately followed) a successful psychic test

In this example there are 3 degrees of separation between the effect of the psychic power on the space wolf (the wound) and the test itself. You can see that "Guide" has affected the space wolf indirectly.

So if we are to agree that WTT can only be used against psychic powers that directly affect the space wolf, then regular and nemesis flavoured force weapon's effects can both be nullified whereas hammer hand's and guide's cannot.

biggest problem I see is that in a regular force weapon instant death is the result of being targeted by the power, and a succesful roll activation.

the activation of nemesis force weapons does not directly cause a instant death, it causes the bearers to cause instant death, it's the same result but different way of getting there.

[Fle]

What about something like "Warp Quake"?
1) The model suffers a Deep Strike Mishap result (The ultimate effect of the power)
2) The model ends up within 12" of the unit that cast Warp Quake (purposefully or accidentally)
3a-c?) The model is placed, a scatter roll is made, the final position of the model is determined
3) The model goes through the Deep Strike process, which in itself contains a number of steps (so it depends on how distinct one wants to be with events):
4) The WTT-bearing model successfully arrives from Reserve
5) A whole bunchof stuff happens during the GK player's turn (moving units, shooting with units, assaulting, and so on)
6) The unit makes a Psychic Test to activate Warp Quake

Holy cow, depending on how you want to count those steps that is a lot of "indirectness" there. But it doesn't matter, since the end effect is that the power affects the unit with the WTT which triggers its ability.

I think the the Warp Quake example would look like this.

1> The space wolf suffers a Deep Strike Mishap (the ultimate effect of the power)
2> The Deep Strike Mishap was the direct effect the successful psychic test (it's the Warp Quake psychic power that causes mishaps)

Using your sequence of events above, you can never link the successful psychic test to the ultimate effect. Can you say how your step 4 a direct consequence of your step (5) 6?

Lets say that Warp Quake didnt cause the unit to suffer a Deep Strike Mishap and instead turned an area of the board into impassible terrain. The sequence would look like this.

1> The space wolf suffers a Deep Strike Mishap (the ultimate effect of the power)
2> The Deep Strike Mishap was the direct effect of landing on impassable terrain
3> The impassable terrain was the direct effect of the successful psychic test

So in my made up example the psychic power did not directly effect the space wolf. The sequence clearly shows how one action is caused by another all the way through the chain back to the psychic test. Your sequence above does not do this.

[Fle]

biggest problem I see is that in a regular force weapon instant death is the result of being targeted by the power, and a succesful roll activation.

the activation of nemesis force weapons does not directly cause a instant death, it causes the bearers to cause instant death, it's the same result but different way of getting there.

Ok so I am correct in thinking that you think the sequence should look like this?

1) The space wolf suffers Instant Death (the ultimate effect of the psychic power on the space wolf)
2) Instant Death was the direct effect of suffering a wound that causes instant death
3) The wound that causes instant death was the direct effect of a successful psychic test (and also a successful to wound roll...but for the purposes of figuring out the degrees of separation between a psychic test and the effect we only need to go back until we reach the psychic test)

Yes I think you are right and the space wolf has been indirectly affected by the psychic power. I think for simplicities sake the WTT should only be used against effects that are suffered as a direct result of a psychic power (1 degree of separation between the test and the effect) and maybe a FAQ will 'fix' the NFW so that it does directly affect the space wolf. With that said though, as it stands today I think both sides have argued equally valid points for the WTT to work against effects caused directly or indirectly by psychic powers.

[Egaeus]

Using your sequence of events above, you can never link the successful psychic test to the ultimate effect. Can you say how your step 4 a direct consequence of your step (5) 6?

It's not strictly a result, it's just that I'm trying to show that there are times when a psychic power isn't as simple as "make a psychic test" and "something happens immediately"...in this case there is a large number of steps that occur between when the power is used and when it actually does something...but when it finally "does something" that something is affecting the unit with the WTT regardless of what happens in the interim. If the unit never arrives from reserve then obviously it can't Deep Strike, so a prerequisite of it being affected by the power is for it to arrive and Deep Strike. So I can't really see it being left out of our causality chain.

To counter:

To carry on with other examples, "Guide" would look like this

1) The space wolf suffers a wound (the ultimate effect of the psychic power on the space wolf)
2) The wound was the direct effect of a successful to wound roll
3) The successful to wound roll was the direct effect of (or immediately followed) a successful to hit roll
4) The successful to hit roll roll was the direct effect (or immediately followed) a successful psychic test

In this example there are 3 degrees of separation between the effect of the psychic power on the space wolf (the wound) and the test itself. You can see that "Guide" has affected the space wolf indirectly.

I would argue that steps 1-3 are superfluos, as once the unit has suffered more hits than it would have if the power were not in effect then it has been affected by the power. Or we could argue that the re-rolls themselves are the effect of the power and that since they will potentially cause more hits then these "extra" to-hit rolls are affecting the unit.

So it seems it could as easily be:
1) If [any] re-rolls are successful then the unit takes more hits than it would normally due to the psychic power (which is technically the psychic power's effect, it does nothing to modify wound rolls or saves)
2) To-hit rolls are made. If some miss then the power "activates".
3) A psychic power is passed (You actually didn't count this as a seperate step in your example).

See, now I've got it down to only two steps which means it's pretty much a direct effect at that point (or would you assume that a to-hit roll for a PSA isn't part of using that PSA?). As I've stated before, it does seem like there are times when the roll could be made in a pre-emptive fashion to avoid unnecessary rolling...I think I used PSAs before, as once you've actually hit with them you could roll to nullify at that point and thus avoid rolling wounds and saves that might be moot...although it can be just as well to finish out the sequence in case the power does fail to wound or saves are passed.

My fundamental argument all along is that there is no qualifier in the Wolf Tail Talisman rule as to what qualifies as "affected by"...it doesn't have to be wounds, or even an attack per se. It merely has to "affect" the unit in some way.

[Fle]

To counter:
Or we could argue that the re-rolls themselves are the effect of the power and that since they will potentially cause more hits then these "extra" to-hit rolls are affecting the unit.

Yes I see what you mean, but the ultimate effect on the space wolf is that he suffers a wound, not that he suffers more hits. The effect on the Eldar unit is that he makes more successful "To Hit" rolls but this is not an effect on the Space wolf.

So it seems it could as easily be:
1) If [any] re-rolls are successful then the unit takes more hits than it would normally due to the psychic power (which is technically the psychic power's effect, it does nothing to modify wound rolls or saves)
2) To-hit rolls are made. If some miss then the power "activates".
3) A psychic power is passed (You actually didn't count this as a seperate step in your example).

I think you have to start at the effect on the space wolf, which is "the space wolf suffers a wound" and work back from that.

1> The space wolf suffers a wound
2> The wound is a direct effect of a successful To hit roll
3> The to hit roll may or may not have been the direct effect of a successful psychic test

I've not tried working out a PSA so here goes.

1> The space wolf suffers a wound
2> The wound is a direct effect of a psychic shooting attack

I would say the space wolf has been directly affected by the PSA.

My fundamental argument all along is that there is no qualifier in the Wolf Tail Talisman rule as to what qualifies as "affected by"...it doesn't have to be wounds, or even an attack per se. It merely has to "affect" the unit in some way.

This is completely true IMO. Making more successful "To Hit" rolls is not the effect on the space wolf though. The "Wound" the space wolf suffers as a result of those successful "To Hit" rolls is the effect on the space wolf. This effect has been shown to have been indirectly caused by the "Guide" psychic power. Whether indirect effects still count for the purposes of the WTT is, I think, still open for debate.

[DoctorTom]

I still think the argument that it's an "indirect" effect is something of a dodge...especially as there isn't anything in the WTT rules that says it has to be a "direct" effect, it just has to affect the unit with the Talisman. Nor is there any specific definition of what qualifies as a "direct" effect or not...that is something we've created on our own to discuss the issue. Which is why I've been harping on the Hammerhand issue, because there are "levels of indirectness" but (to my knowledge) there is nothing in the rules that specifically covers them. In a very broad sense I could simply claim that "If you take a psychic test and then something happens to my unit at any later point that can be traced back to the power usage then it is 'being affected by a psychic power'." Now it's much cleaner when we have a direct cause and effect chain (for example a PSA which has an immediate resolution) and I would readily agree that there is a point at which the causality chain becomes absurd but there are also times when I feel the model should really get a save to attempt to nullify the effects of a power.

True, it doesn't differentiate between direct and indirect, but - as you say - the chain of indirectness can be traced back to an absurd level, so really we're left with trying to determine what they meant by this rule (yes, heading into the murky area of RAI, it seems like), and it seemed to me the precedent GW has used before has been a direct effect. We haven't had games before where Guide had been able to be negated - at least until now. I would say GAP (based upon earlier edition null rods having the same wording for not affecting the unit, and Guide still having been able to be used against them before) that at some point of indirectness you don't count it as affecting the unit for purposes of triggering the piece of wargear. This would also mean you don't have to backtrack to previous phases, where you might get something like Gate of Infinity allowing a unit to Deep Strike close enough to the Wolves to shoot them up - that would be an indirect effect, but not really one to cancel. I think that what we're doing in the debates now is really trying to set the threshold of that indirectness at which it's no longer appropriate to say the wargear could negate the power.

After typing the last paragraph, I decided to go to the Adepticon page to look at the INAT. They define "affected" as something targeting or directly affecting the model or unit. That said, I see that they're treating the Instant Death as a direct effect and not as an indirect effect. I think that in the debates here it's mostly been seen as an indirect effect, but I wouldn't have a problem playing under the INAT FAQ (if it was used for everything - there's individual rulings I might not agree with, but overall it gives a good structure overall for most of the questions and is far more thorough than the GW FAQs). They don't treat Hammerhand or Might of the Ancients as something that can be negated, as that would be indirect. (Still, I'm willing to play devil's advocate and argue on the hypothetical if they can be affected, what about scenario x, as we're about to get to with your next paragraph.)

While I can understand people's distaste for for the idea of negating buffs, I still find it hard to seperate the fact that if a unit is being wounded by rolls that are only succeeding because of a psychic power enhancement that it isn't the power "causing" those wounds, which means that the unit is being affected by the power, even if it is indirectly. In the case of multiple stacked powes and assuming a roll to nullify is allowed (which is still an odd proposition as it does require keeping track of the die rolls to wound, since one needs to know if the unit really is being affected by the power but it's no worse really then going through all the steps of using a PSA in my mind) then I would expect that one roll for each power would be made because each of those powers is affecting the unit.

Are they, really? Let's take the situation I gave where there were no 2's rolled, but only 1's and 3+'s. Only one buff was required to achieve that result. If you start rolling to negate them, and you fail to negate the first buff you'd rolled against, then you can't show that any of the other buffs affected the unit - the one buff you failed against was enough to provide the results that affected the unit. So, why should you get to roll against any of the other buffs if they can't be shown to affect the unit? (Again, this is playing Devil's advocate here, trying to take this strand down the path as far as we can just to explore the issue more.)

Actually, if it were up to me, I would make the WTT roll(s) before any rolls to wound were made...at this point we would know if any hits are landing on the model with the WTT, so we know that he is being affected by the power. I know it's not strictly "what the rules say" but it seems to me it would prevent headaches and backtracking. While the phrasing "affected by" does imply after the fact I could see an argument that you can roll as soon as the effect comes into play...so in this case it would be before to-wound rolls are made because the effect is to change the target number for those rolls.

I agree it's not what the rules say, and I'd disagree with rolling before any to wound rolls were made because I think you still need to demonstrate that the unit is affected. (I don't think changing the target numbers changing would be enough - the unit needs to have a tangible (indirect) effect like the power actually having caused a wound that wouldn't have happened without the power) I don't think that "for simplicity's sake" covers the situation where you can avoid showing that the unit is actually being affected by a power before you make the rolls. To be honest, I think that the thought for preventing headaches and backtracking was what led to decisions in the past to limit things to targeting and direct effects. It might not strictly have been RAW, but it certainly has been GAP.

Oh, thanks for originally putting up that first argument about Hammerhand! I'm enjoying getting into the detail of it in the thread here, and I'm glad other people are picking up on it and running with it now.

[Egaeus]

Oh, thanks for originally putting up that first argument about Hammerhand! I'm enjoying getting into the detail of it in the thread here, and I'm glad other people are picking up on it and running with it now.

You're welcome. I'm just glad that with this many of pages of discussion it has remained very civil . I do hope people understand that I am as much playing "devil's advocate" here along with my opinons of how I think it should work. Fundamentally it's one of those "grey areas" where GW hasn't given us strong definitions to work with so we are left to determine how far-reaching the ability should be.

True, it doesn't differentiate between direct and indirect, but - as you say - the chain of indirectness can be traced back to an absurd level, so really we're left with trying to determine what they meant by this rule (yes, heading into the murky area of RAI, it seems like), and it seemed to me the precedent GW has used before has been a direct effect. <snip> This would also mean you don't have to backtrack to previous phases, where you might get something like Gate of Infinity allowing a unit to Deep Strike close enough to the Wolves to shoot them up - that would be an indirect effect, but not really one to cancel. I think that what we're doing in the debates now is really trying to set the threshold of that indirectness at which it's no longer appropriate to say the wargear could negate the power.

I agree and have conceded earlier that a "direct effect" is probably the intended usage and that indirect affects are probably overreaching, but when people start arguing that BoP NFW is an "indirect effect" it just rubs me the wrong way and so I argue that the rules for the WTT don't require it to be a "direct" effect anyways (not that I want to start that discussion all over again...)

As for your Gate of Infinity example I've maintained that the test should be "what would be the result if the power were not in effect". In this case there is not even really any indirect effect except in a very abstract way, since when the unit shoots the power is no longer active.
Note that this is very different from a power like Hammerhand or Guide where we have a very specific and immediate effect on the unit with the Talisman.

After typing the last paragraph, I decided to go to the Adepticon page to look at the INAT. They define "affected" as something targeting or directly affecting the model or unit.

First, I don't put a lot of faith in non-GW FAQs (or to a great degree in GW's own FAQs either ) regardless of how many people were involved in making them or use them as they aren't really any more valid that "Egaeus' House Rules" where I could make whatever crazy decisions I wanted. Although they can be nice for a "here's what other people think on the issue". And just because "that's what people think" (for example on the ID issue) doesn't mean that they are right.

Does the FAQ define or tell how to determine what is "directly affecting", as that is still the crux of the matter? Otherwise they might as well be saying "they are affected by things that affect them"...redundant.

Are they, really? Let's take the situation I gave where there were no 2's rolled, but only 1's and 3+'s.

The thing is you don't apply the power individually until you reach a desired threshold...they all apply automatically as a lump sum, so you can't distinguish "which one" actually applied since they all do. Thus you should get a roll to nullify each one. I would assume this would all be done at the same time since they all do essentially the same things. The downside to this seems to be that if any of them are nullified then one would have to re-roll all hits using the "new" Strength...which could potentially end up causing more wounds than the original rolls. This is why I suggested rolling before wounds are rolled, primarily as a means of simplifying things (sort of like what causes the issue with NFWs...)

I agree it's not what the rules say, and I'd disagree with rolling before any to wound rolls were made because I think you still need to demonstrate that the unit is affected. (I don't think changing the target numbers changing would be enough - the unit needs to have a tangible (indirect) effect like the power actually having caused a wound that wouldn't have happened without the power) I don't think that "for simplicity's sake" covers the situation where you can avoid showing that the unit is actually being affected by a power before you make the rolls. To be honest, I think that the thought for preventing headaches and backtracking was what led to decisions in the past to limit things to targeting and direct effects. It might not strictly have been RAW, but it certainly has been GAP.

D'oh...I really don't like this new system as it takes me too long to compose a reply and then I lose it because it logs me out...so I try to copy to Notepad before posting but I still lose things....had a section here but lost it...

But we still don't really have a good definition of "affected", so I think that "changing target numbers" could very legitimately be considered an effect...basically this is all that Doom does, although since Doom is cast on a unit it is most definitely a direct affect. But Guide does a very similar thing, although for hits rather than wounds and it isn't cast on an enemy unit...but it still results in a targeted unit being affected. But as you say until you actually make a re-roll that counts it hasn't really affected the unit in any meaningful way. Although I suppose Doom is easy enough to keep track of because you just have to know how many wounds were caused by re-rolls and they simply get negated...so I assume that you roll for the WTT as soon as those re-rolls are made? Or do you make saves against those "extra" wounds to see if they actually "affect" the unit? If you wait until after saves how do you resolve what happens if the effect gets negated? If you have to keep track of those successful re-rolled wounds all the way through the process and roll those saves sepreately then that to me is a pretty significant effect. Basically I'm trying to establish that there are situations when "being affected" occurs earlier than the final result of a power.

Edit: Or do we just roll to Nullify Doom as soon as it is successfully cast on the unit? Having the debuff applied is certainly affected, but if the unit doesn't get shot at, or any shots don't need to be re-rolled has the unit actually "been affected"?

[lantzkev]

you would roll the second anything got put on them that affects the unit.

[DoctorTom]

I agree and have conceded earlier that a "direct effect" is probably the intended usage and that indirect affects are probably overreaching, but when people start arguing that BoP NFW is an "indirect effect" it just rubs me the wrong way and so I argue that the rules for the WTT don't require it to be a "direct" effect anyways (not that I want to start that discussion all over again...)

I think it rubbed the people who made the INAT the wrong way too, when they listed it as a direct effect. I think from a RAW standpoint what they did with the new wording makes it an indirect effect, but that is most likely an unintended consequence of the change.

First, I don't put a lot of faith in non-GW FAQs (or to a great degree in GW's own FAQs either ) regardless of how many people were involved in making them or use them as they aren't really any more valid that "Egaeus' House Rules" where I could make whatever crazy decisions I wanted. Although they can be nice for a "here's what other people think on the issue". And just because "that's what people think" (for example on the ID issue) doesn't mean that they are right.

I agree, I just look at the INAT one now and then because it's almost become a standard "house rule" FAQ for a lot of people. I don't agree with everything in it, and I suspect you won't find anyone who does. It can work as a nice compromise if you're trying to make things easier, just from the standpoint they've covered far more topics than you might think to bring up.

Does the FAQ define or tell how to determine what is "directly affecting", as that is still the crux of the matter? Otherwise they might as well be saying "they are affected by things that affect them"...redundant.

They just give a list of powers by army that are affected by the WTT (and have the same list for the null rod, by the way); they didn't define how to determine what is directly affecting. It does look like they're using 1 degree of separation for their things, though - except for a small number which might be debatable the link is direct without any intervening degrees.

The thing is you don't apply the power individually until you reach a desired threshold...they all apply automatically as a lump sum, so you can't distinguish "which one" actually applied since they all do. Thus you should get a roll to nullify each one. I would assume this would all be done at the same time since they all do essentially the same things. The downside to this seems to be that if any of them are nullified then one would have to re-roll all hits using the "new" Strength...which could potentially end up causing more wounds than the original rolls. This is why I suggested rolling before wounds are rolled, primarily as a means of simplifying things (sort of like what causes the issue with NFWs...)

Still, I think if you reach the point that the remaining powers aren't having an effect (at least that turn) you wouldn't be nullifying them. Of course, it's a moot point if you are going with the "target or direct effect" interpretation, as these buffs are definitely indirect.

But we still don't really have a good definition of "affected", so I think that "changing target numbers" could very legitimately be considered an effect...basically this is all that Doom does, although since Doom is cast on a unit it is most definitely a direct affect.

I'll agree that GW needs to provide a better definition for what they mean by "affected", otherwise any Butterfly Effect could be claimed - like the patently absurd examples I've given before like Gate of Infinity, or Quickening. I'd agree on Doom being a direct effect, that one's pretty obvious since you're targeting the unit you cast it on.

But Guide does a very similar thing, although for hits rather than wounds and it isn't cast on an enemy unit...but it still results in a targeted unit being affected. But as you say until you actually make a re-roll that counts it hasn't really affected the unit in any meaningful way. Although I suppose Doom is easy enough to keep track of because you just have to know how many wounds were caused by re-rolls and they simply get negated...so I assume that you roll for the WTT as soon as those re-rolls are made? Or do you make saves against those "extra" wounds to see if they actually "affect" the unit? If you wait until after saves how do you resolve what happens if the effect gets negated? If you have to keep track of those successful re-rolled wounds all the way through the process and roll those saves sepreately then that to me is a pretty significant effect. Basically I'm trying to establish that there are situations when "being affected" occurs earlier than the final result of a power.

Guide's indirect though, not direct. It's cast on the Eldar unit. If you're trying for allowing indirect effects to be cancelled, then you definitely would have to keep track of the successful rerolls to hit to determine if they wound. This is approaching a level of bookkeeping that GW doesn't seem to want to have with the game, which is probably why GAP has been that it would only be direct effects. The earlier Daemonhunters Codex had the same wording about affecting the model/unit with the Null Rod, and GAP had been that it would not negate Guide.

Edit: Or do we just roll to Nullify Doom as soon as it is successfully cast on the unit? Having the debuff applied is certainly affected, but if the unit doesn't get shot at, or any shots don't need to be re-rolled has the unit actually "been affected"?

Actually, that is a tricky situation. If you're not treating the unit as having been affected until a reroll to wound is required, then if nobody shoots at the unit, it could find itself in assault. Only the IC has a Wolf Tail Talisman, not the rest of the unit, and the IC would be treated as a separate unit in combat. This would mean that if combat at appropriate initiatives targeted only the bulk of the unit first and not the IC, then technically you could still get the unit being affected by Doom. I think, however, that this one will fall under the "for simplicity's sake" explanation for having the WTT get its chance to cancel the Doom.

Hmm, come to think of it, this means that a SW unit would not get any chance to cancel Nemesis Force Weapons until at whatever initiative the IC gets wounded by the Force Weapons. It sucks for the Wolves that the Wolf Lord on his thunderwolf mount can't stop the NFWs from mowing down the Thunderwolf Cavalry unit he joined while not swinging at him. (Handy GK Close Combat tip - have any models with Nemesis Force Falchions attack the main body of a unit and not the IC with the Wolf Tail Talisman.)

[Egaeus]

you would roll the second anything got put on them that affects the unit.

And Doom "affects" the unit how, exactly? If Doom is cast on a unit and then said unit is completely ignored until Doom expires has the power actually affected the unit? If we say "Yes, because the very nature of having Doom cast on the unit is how it is affected" then why couldn't I argue equally that if, for example, a PSA is successfully cast and hits the unit that at that point the power has affected my unit?

I think it rubbed the people who made the INAT the wrong way too, when they listed it as a direct effect. I think from a RAW standpoint what they did with the new wording makes it an indirect effect, but that is most likely an unintended consequence of the change.

As I've maintained throughout the thread there really isn't any strict rules support for the idea of direct versus indirect effects, so I would agree that it's unlikely that GW saw this as an issue when writing the rules. There are many instances when it seems like they expect players to just know how a rule is supposedto work despite how it is actually worded. And I'm fairly certain the authors don't put anywhere near the amount of time the players do in dissecting the wording of the rules.

They just give a list of powers by army that are affected by the WTT (and have the same list for the null rod, by the way); they didn't define how to determine what is directly affecting. It does look like they're using 1 degree of separation for their things, though - except for a small number which might be debatable the link is direct without any intervening degrees.

Having a list of powers is probably the best way to do it, although I could see instances where people could wonder "Why can A be nullified but not B?" (I haven't bothered to look at the list myself, so this is conjecture).

I'll agree that GW needs to provide a better definition for what they mean by "affected", otherwise any Butterfly Effect could be claimed - like the patently absurd examples I've given before like Gate of Infinity, or Quickening. I'd agree on Doom being a direct effect, that one's pretty obvious since you're targeting the unit you cast it on.

And I have agreed that there is a level where it becomes absurd, but I beleive I've also presented some "rules of thumb" that aid in determining whether or not it is absurd...the two basics being "Is the power in effect when somthing occurs?" (so a power that has finished doesn't affect what comes later) and "what would be the result if the power weren't in effect?" or perhaps more simply "what is the power doing?" (which assumes an 'active' power to be causing some effect).

This is why I like Doom and Guide as examples, since they do essentially that same thing, allow re-rolls. Now Doom is a "targeted" effect as it is used on an enemy unit. Guide is used on a friendly unit. However, neither power really has any inherent effect, they both require further interactions to actually be useful. But I find it very difficult to claim that the unit that is having re-rolls made against it isn't being "affected" by the usage of either power.

I've been loathe to bring up fluff discussion because I know full well that fluff != rules but there is that level of "what the item is meant to do, and how well does it do it"...although at this point I am going to simply leave it at that.

[lantzkev]

And Doom "affects" the unit how, exactly? If Doom is cast on a unit and then said unit is completely ignored until Doom expires has the power actually affected the unit? If we say "Yes, because the very nature of having Doom cast on the unit is how it is affected" then why couldn't I argue equally that if, for example, a PSA is successfully cast and hits the unit that at that point the power has affected my unit?

You're really arguing that something placed on a unit isn't affecting them? Even if the effect is benign until invoked? And yes a PSA succesfully cast that hits the unit is also affecting the unit... I'm not sure what you're trying to argue.

you're argument of doom vs guide is clearly oranges to apples, even if they both taste the same they are different things all together for this argument. In the words of Chief Justice Stewart, "I know it when I see it." to say that doom does not affect a unit, and that it is the same as guide is just silly. Even if all wordings are identical, they become fundamentally difference in how they interact in the world with the "target enemy unit" vs "target friendly unit" bits.

To say they have no inherent effect because they require further interactions to be useful is silly. If I coat you in gasoline, I have affected you, even if we're waiting on a match to show up. If I give myself a flamethrower I still haven't affected you. The end result of you being immolated like a buddhist monk protesting maybe the same, but the how we got there and what affected you from me are different.

[DoctorTom]

To say they have no inherent effect because they require further interactions to be useful is silly. If I coat you in gasoline, I have affected you, even if we're waiting on a match to show up. If I give myself a flamethrower I still haven't affected you. The end result of you being immolated like a buddhist monk protesting maybe the same, but the how we got there and what affected you from me are different.

To play devil's advocate here, your argument could be used by someone who wanted to say that Guide would be affected by the WTT. Even though it's cast on the Eldar, it lets them reroll failed hits, which might cause hits and wounds on the Space Wolves that they wouldn't have otherwise suffered. It's a much more indirect effect for Guide than for Doom though. So, should Guide be able to be negated? I'd side with GAP and not have it affected; a precedent had been set by Null Rod over several editions. (So, I'm on your side with that view.) It looks to me that you are trying to draw the line at indirect effects. This isn't a bad place to draw it, but there will be some people who will argue against the line being there.

[lantzkev]

my argument can't apply to guide, my whole argument is that you can't have a save against a psychic power that doesn't directly affect you, ie guide, hammer hands, might of titans, quickening, etc.

[DoctorTom]

my argument can't apply to guide, my whole argument is that you can't have a save against a psychic power that doesn't directly affect you, ie guide, hammer hands, might of titans, quickening, etc.

Okay, I'll try to explain to you why it could apply. Let's look at your statement.

To say they have no inherent effect because they require further interactions to be useful is silly

Now, for Guide to affect the Wolves, it would require further interactions - the Guide allows them rerolls of hits, which can cause hits that would not have affected the Wolves, and these hits could cause wounds that would not have otherwise been inflicted because of the Guide. Therefore, the argument can be made that your statement can be used to justify having Guide affect the unit. You never stated that it had to be a direct effect in that statement. Now, with your last reply, you've changed it so that you are stating that you're basing it on direct effects only. My point is some people will debate that based on the wording that indirect effects could be included, but precedent based upon the null rod would say that you stick with direct effects only.

[Egaeus]

As I've mentioned before I am merely making the argument that the rules for the WTT simply say "affected by a power" without any further qualifiers. If the rule specified powers "used on" or "targeting" the model then there would be a clear level of interaction...although there are still a number of psychic powers that aren't used against a single unit but still will have an affect on them. And powers such as Force Weapons, Doom and Guide are fundamentally used to affect enemy units. I could simply say that to argue otherwise is silly.

Although I have said before that I agree that limiting to "direct effects" keeps things somewhat simpler, aside from having to determine what is a "direct effect" and what isn't, since there is no such definition that I am aware of in the rulebook.

@DoctorTom: The current Grey Knights FAQ doesn't contain any references to the Null Rod...you cite precedence from before, but do you have some way to "prove" it without resorting to (I am assuming) old FAQs? Is there somewhere else in the current FAQs that this is addressed? I understand that we can go with what is considered GaP but if one were trying to establish this (for example to a new player) is there a source? I don't want this to come across as hostile, I'm honestly curious because sometimes the argument "this is how it worked before" isn't really applicable as the rules change.

For example, I am having a hard time trying to find the kind of power I want to use as an example...the old Tyranid powers would be nice, but none of their current powers work the same way. I was trying to find an "active debuff"...something along the lines of "until your next turn any unit that comes within X" of the unit has [penalty]"...I don't own all the current books at the moment either, so there may be something I'm just not aware of. That's why I've been using Warp Quake and Tempest's Wrath because that is essentially the effect they have, but both powers require an extra level of interaction, namely Deep Striking the unit, although this is completely doable with the Space Wolves Codex.

[lantzkev]

Okay, I'll try to explain to you why it could apply. Let's look at your statement.



Now, for Guide to affect the Wolves, it would require further interactions - the Guide allows them rerolls of hits, which can cause hits that would not have affected the Wolves, and these hits could cause wounds that would not have otherwise been inflicted because of the Guide. Therefore, the argument can be made that your statement can be used to justify having Guide affect the unit. You never stated that it had to be a direct effect in that statement. Now, with your last reply, you've changed it so that you are stating that you're basing it on direct effects only. My point is some people will debate that based on the wording that indirect effects could be included, but precedent based upon the null rod would say that you stick with direct effects only.

This "change" happened with my first comments and throughout. I've always made comments that directly and indirectly said that anything "on" a unit affects them, regardless of the interactions.

The whole conversation was about indirect effects, and it was reasonable to assume folks could infer that if they were reading the whole conversation and not just reading the last comments and replying to them...

Most abilities that nullify psychic powers are limited to things that "target" you or "affect" you. It is unreasonable to extend this beyond an immediate effect such as guide or hammerhands, regardless of how you extrapolate from there, it's when you have to extrapolate a effect, regardless of how much or little thought it requires, that you are having to work and force it to affect the model.

When something has no inherent effect, it can still affect them. In the example I gave with it, I showed someone getting doused with gasoline. Yes it needs a match to do any harm to the person, but the gasoline is on them and affecting them, even if the effect is not worth notice without a match. the "gasoline" was trigger a talisman while arming a flame thrower infront of a person would not. The coating you with gasoline affects you, the arming of someone with a flame thrower does not. Using the Flamethrower affects you, but that's not what the talisman protects from (regular mundane attacks) it only protects against gasoline and its ilk...

to adapt my little parabole that is.

[Egaeus]

Most abilities that nullify psychic powers are limited to things that "target" you or "affect" you. It is unreasonable to extend this beyond an immediate effect such as guide or hammerhands, regardless of how you extrapolate from there, it's when you have to extrapolate a effect, regardless of how much or little thought it requires, that you are having to work and force it to affect the model.

You claim this and yet I'm not sure the rules actually support this. Psychic Hoods and their ilk can nullify any psychic power...who it targets or affects is irrelevant. I feel exceptionally embarrassed because my Marines use the Black Templars rules and I didn't even think about their ability to nullify psychic powers, which states "any psychic powers targeted against...or which includes them in its area of effect". As I've said this is much more specific than merely saying "affected by". So it becomes one of those cases where even if you want to say "Well surely GW meant the same thing" they did not use the same wording which leaves the door open to interpretation.

If the trigger for the talisman were "gasoline" then why would it make a difference if it were already burning when it arrived (I am assuming that the fuel for your flamethrower is some form of gasoline...if it's not then I think your whole metaphor breaks down because as you said before we are comparing apples and oranges)? As I've maintained even if the affect is indirect if a specific effect can be traced back to being wholly a result of the power usage then I think an item that is meant to protect one from those powers should work.

[logan054]

You use a power, something happens to my model(s)...I still find it very hard to accept a claim that the power isn't affecting my unit. And that is all the rule requires...a psychic power and an effect on a unit. The fact that there are not further qualifiers is what creates discussions (or debates if you prefer) like these.

Thats a over simplification, the power is activated and the grey knight unit gains a buff, this is the direct effect, the grey knight unit gaining the ID rule, whatever happens after that is how the buff effects the enemy unit, that isn't a direct effect much like how hammer hand effects a enemy unit. If you find it very hard to see how it isn't effecting the space wolf unit then you must also have trouble seeing how guide, hammerhand isn't effecting the unit, its the same thing, the only difference is when you take your psychic test, to me it just seems like you changing the context of effecting to suit the situation.

Perhaps also your trying to apply logic from the tradition wording of the rule, you simply can't because the rule isn't designed to be used on a unit basis, the standard ruling for a force weapon is designed to be used by a single model, I suspect when 6th ed comes out we are going to see the rules for force weapons changed slightly, this may explain why brotherhood of psykers is worded slightly differently.

[DoctorTom]

@DoctorTom: The current Grey Knights FAQ doesn't contain any references to the Null Rod...you cite precedence from before, but do you have some way to "prove" it without resorting to (I am assuming) old FAQs? Is there somewhere else in the current FAQs that this is addressed? I understand that we can go with what is considered GaP but if one were trying to establish this (for example to a new player) is there a source? I don't want this to come across as hostile, I'm honestly curious because sometimes the argument "this is how it worked before" isn't really applicable as the rules change.

There might have been something in the old FAQs, but I don't think there's anything with the current GW FAQs that addresses it. I know people don't like referencing the INAT FAQ for these things, but that is how the null rod was generally played before - effects that target the unit and direct effects only - and when Wolf Tail Talismans came along they treated them the same way since they had the same wording.