Space Wolves anti-psychic powers Wolf Tail

[DoctorTom]

It's not that I'm getting hung up on the activation roll, it's that activation roll and it's timing that is a big part of it.

The roll for the unit does not change the fact that Nemesis weapons are Force weapons, and that the instant death thing is a psychic power used via the weapon.

No, the fact that there are rules modifications in the NFW rules means that it's a modified force weapon, not a normal force weapon, and where the rules are modified, you use the modified rules.

And, even using your logic that you go by the activation roll, in the multiple assault the initial model wounded does not have a Tail, so when the power is activated there wouldn't be any members of the other unit targeted. You sound like you would try to argue that you would also get a save against a unit of Eldar that wounded the unit because a Warlock's Enhance power let the Warlock make the hit that wounded the SW. Like the wording for Nemesis Force Weapons, it's not directly targeting that Space Wolf unit, so you don't get to make saves against powers that aren't targeting you. Some things are indirect - like Enhance affecting the Eldar unit (just happening to make them hit better and quicker) or Grey Knight's Nememis Force Weapons having the power target all the weapons instead of targeting the person(s) hit.

The Main Rulebook states that a Force Weapon confers an additional psychic power upon the user, the power to extinguish the life force of the opponent. THAT is a psychic attack targeting the unit wounded by the weapon, which surely would allow a save from a Wolf Tail Talisman?

Codex > Main Rulebook. The main rulebook states that the user takes a psychic test to use against one opponent - that opponent is specifically targeted for a normal force weaspon. For NFW, the quote I provided does not mention the opponents as targets at all - it says that if the roll is successful all wounds inflict instant death. That isn't targeting the model or the wound.

The multiple initiative example in the GK Dex confirms this for me - for that guy going first, his Nemesis weapon functions EXACTLY as per a regular Force weapon. So in that case, it's a completely different rule? No, it's just that the roll for that individuals use of the psychic power has to be made then, and as per Grey Knight rules, that roll counts for the whole unit.

Nothing in the GK Dex supercedes the Main Rulebook on how the instant death works, or how it is as a psychic attack. The Force weapon, or Nemesis simply confers the power upon it's bearer.

In the multiple assault example you give, I would say that the unit with the wolf tail talisman would get to save against any instant death against it's members, and a successful save would dispel that individual effect of the attack that was saved against. The unit without the WTT would still suffer the effect without a save.[/QUOTE]

[Rosco151]

Sorry, but we're just going around in circles here.

Yes, the Nemesis weapons have rules that supercede the Main Rulebook, but these only deal with how they are activated on a squad level. As it states in the GK Dex, they are otherwise Force Weapons.

Yes, a successful activation confers Instant Death upon the Nemesis weapons attacks.

That Instant Death effect is as per the Force Weapons rules in the main book - The Grey Knight destroys the life force of the target as per the Force weapons description.

Nemesis Force weapons themselves are not modified Force Weapons. It's just that a squad has to use them in a slightly different way to a single model. The rules in the GK Dex only provide the workaround for this, they do not otherwise modify the Force weapon rules.

On a squad level, attacking at the same initiative, you roll to hit, roll to wound, the target rolls its saves if it has any. For any unsaved wounds you the roll to activate the Instant Death effect. This is all exactly as per the rules for Force weapons.

The ONLY way any part of the Nemesis rules supercedes this, is that you do not roll to activate Instant Death for each individual member of the squad. You roll for the squad as a whole.

The GK Dex states it exactly: "All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

Nothing about how they cause Instant Death is modified. The rules only then go on too clarify how they power is activated by a squad rather than an individual.

Show me the part of those rules where it states that they do not follow the rules for use of the Instant Death psychic power as per the Main Rulebook?

The Main Rulebook then states that when an unsaved wound is caused: "The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapons power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn. The normal rules for psychic powers apply".

Once again, nothing in the GK Dex supercedes any of this.

I have to say this again - nothing about the weapon is modified, no part of the GK Dex supports that, the section in the GK rules only deals with the how Grey Knight activate the Instant Death psychic power from their force weapons as a squad.

Your argument about how nemesis weapons do not target an individual? Once again, there is nothing in the GK Dex that supercedes the Main Rulebook - the power is used against anyone who has suffered an unsaved wound in the unit targeted by the Grey Knights in assault.

If you have an individual Grey Knight character attacking an Independent Character in the opposing force without any supporting units, then the Nemesis weapons function EXACTLY as a regular Force weapon. If they character being attacked had a save that he could take against a psychic attack, would you then say that he cannot take it against the Nemesis weapons instant death effect? If so, why?

In the multiple assault example - If the model initially hit by the attack that caused the activation of the power did not have the protection of the WTT, then of course he wouldn't get any save against it as a psychic power. But the use of the Instant Death effect on the 2nd unit that has the WTT is still the use of a psychic power against THEM, it's just that the power was activated by an attack on a seperate unit. My logic still applies, any subsequent instant death from the Nemesis weapons are still a psychic power affecting that unit as per the force weapon rules.

I would not argue that WTT confers a save against Fortune from the Eldar - this power guides the aim of the unit via a 3rd party - the Eldar psyker. The Instant Death effect of the Grey Knights Nemesis weapons does not involve their weapons being guided onto the target by a third party. It involves them using the psychic power conferred on them by the weapons to destroy the enemies soul / life force with a psychic attack channeled through the weapon. That is both RAI and RAW.

[Rosco151]

Emperor-damn, this is a pretty divisive argument across the community. Found the following to support my opinion, but there are just as many to say otherwise...

http://theindyopen.com/blog/faq/
Q: *May a Wolf Tail Talisman be used to attempt to block the activation of a Force Weapon against its unit?
A: *Yes. *For the sake of consistency (and sanity), this applies to all Force Weapons as well as Nemesis Force Weapons.

http://wargameraz.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1172

Once again, we have a situation which will be deliberated over and over until GW sort this one out...

[lantzkev]

Show me the part of those rules where it states that they do not follow the rules for use of the Instant Death psychic power as per the Main Rulebook?

The part where it says all wounds inflict instant death.

say we have a squad of ultraawesome psykers with 50 attacks and force weapons. a normal force weapon can only inflict one insta kill from a unsaved wound.
Nemesis force weapons merely cause all wounds inflicted to cause insta death.

linking a discussion from another website that's not games workshop is hardly a ringing endorsement...

Nemesis force weapons are activated like force weapons are, they however do not cause anything to be targeted.
When activated they cause all wounds to cause insta death, not "cause target model to be instantly killed" like the main rule book says.

There's really not much to debate with this. They are force weapons except as they differ in the codex... which is the insta death part of force weapons in that there is no target, there is simply a "these cause insta death after activating"
The activation of these is on par now with hammerhands...
arguing that the force weapon can be negated by abilities like this is like saying those same abilities can negate hammer hands since the improved str will be used against the unit.

[DoctorTom]

That Instant Death effect is as per the Force Weapons rules in the main book - The Grey Knight destroys the life force of the target as per the Force weapons description.

This is modified by the rules for the Nemesis Force Weapons.

Nemesis Force weapons themselves are not modified Force Weapons.

So they have no abilities at all different from a normal force weapon? I'll remember that the next time one strikes a Daemon, or uses any of the other abilities that it has, or for that matter is activated? There are modifications, and some of them are listed in the force weapon section.

It's just that a squad has to use them in a slightly different way to a single model. The rules in the GK Dex only provide the workaround for this, they do not otherwise modify the Force weapon rules.

Wrong. The wording is what is important. If it's differing from the main rulebook, then it changes what is in the main rulebook. Activation is changed in the GK codex, so you disregard everything it states about activation in the main rulebook and go by the activation rules in the codex.

Show me the part of those rules where it states that they do not follow the rules for use of the Instant Death psychic power as per the Main Rulebook?

It follows the rules for Instant Death as per the Instant Death rules on page 26. I believe you meant to say that you want me to show you the rules where it states it does not follow the rules for a normal Force Weapon Instant Death. Very well, "Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (though independent characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict Instant Death."

The wording establishes that for the Nemesis force weapons, the target of the psychic power is the Nemesis force weapons themselves. It does not specify the model taking the wound at all, the way the normal force weapon rules state (and which you have to ignore because these activation rules override the activation rules in the main rulebook).

Your turn, show me where in the GK codex it specifically states that the Nemesis force weapon activation targets the opponent.

The Main Rulebook then states that when an unsaved wound is caused: "The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapons power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn. The normal rules for psychic powers apply".

Again, you are quoting a part of the main rulebook that is superceded by the rules in the GK Codex. That sentence no longer applies, and the sentence replacing it in the Grey Knight codex does not mention the opponent at all. No mention = no targeting = no Wolf Tail.

I have to say this again - nothing about the weapon is modified, no part of the GK Dex supports that, the section in the GK rules only deals with the how Grey Knight activate the Instant Death psychic power from their force weapons as a squad.

In the multiple assault example - If the model initially hit by the attack that caused the activation of the power did not have the protection of the WTT, then of course he wouldn't get any save against it as a psychic power. But the use of the Instant Death effect on the 2nd unit that has the WTT is still the use of a psychic power against THEM, it's just that the power was activated by an attack on a seperate unit. My logic still applies, any subsequent instant death from the Nemesis weapons are still a psychic power affecting that unit as per the force weapon rules.

Nope, sorry, you activated the power against a unit that doesn't have Wolf Tails. The power is activated at that point, and after that it's whoever is wounded is subject to instant death. It's not the psychic power targeting anything any more at that point.


Now, they very well might come out with an update to the SW or the GK FAQ in order to allow Wolf Tail Talismans (or other psychic nullifying powers worded similarly) to work against the Nemesis Force Weapon in order to try to maintain consistency with the regular force weapon rules. What we have now, however, is a change in the rules based on the wording of Nemesis force weapons where now activating the power does not target a specific model or unit. It says all wounds caused by the weapons now cause instant death, indicating that the weapons are the targets. Was it an intentional change or just a slip? Given what's said about the author, I wouldn't want to guess either way. What we have for RAW now, though, is a definite change in how NFW's work compared to normal force weapons. If you don't like it, discuss it with your opponent and house rule it the way you want. Until a FAQ comes out, though, your way is only a house rule.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Is this so hard after all?

A model with a force weapon battles a squad of multi wound models and wounds two. He makes the psychik test. How many models die? One. If he carries a Nemesis forse weapon how many models die? Two. Are the rules for the weapons the same? Obviously not.

Then we go to the discreption of the weapons and find out that force weapons target a model to insta kill him. Nemesis force weapons make the wounds you have caused have the instant death rule. Is this the same? By wording no, it doesn't say all models wounded suffer instant death.

[Erik_Morkai]

I think it is a simple matter of chronology.
A squad of GK attacks a squad of GH led by a Rune Priest in terminator armor with WTT.

Step 1: The GK roll to hit. The GKs roll to wound.
Step 2: SW player assigns the wounds, say 3 models die instantly. The rune priest rolls his 5++ and fails. This result in an unsaved wound.
Step 3: The GK player rolls to activate the force weapons for his whole squad.
Step 3: The Rune Priest rolls his runic weapon to nullify the activation and fails.
Step 4: The Force weapon's effect is applied to the Rune Priest
Step 4: Because the Rune Priest is affected by an enemy power (Note the word affected and not targeted) he gets to roll his WTT and succeeds in nullifying the instant death.
Step 5: Final result the Rune Priest lost 1 wound.

The WTT text says and I quote: "If a model with a wolf tail talisman or the unit he is with is affected by an enemy psychic power, roll a D6."

Targeted or not the model or the squad is affected by the effect of the nemesis force weapon. The instant death is a direct effect of the psychic power.

[Rosco151]

Erik_Morkai, I am in complete agreement with your chronology and reasoning there, it's what I tried to present earlier but not in quite so neat a fashion.

I think the disagreement stems from the activation of the Instant Death effect when dealing with multiple initiative values in the GK squad.

As per my earlier example, if you take an individual Grey Knight against an individual enemy character, then everything works exactly as per the standard force weapon rules. If you have a GK squad with all the same Initiative, as per your example above, then once again, everything plays out as per the standard force weapons rules. To me, that's clear cut - as per the force weapon rules it's a psychic power targeting anyone who suffers an unsaved wound from the assault.

However, when you have members of the Grey Knight unit striking in different Initiative orders, the order of events changes slightly. Say a higher initiative member of the squad goes first, he might be the only one with a Nemesis halberd for example:

1: GK Squad member rolls to hit, rolls to wound, scores 1 wound against an enemy multi-wound character in base to base. That character fails an invulnerable save, so an unsaved wound is caused.

2: GK Squad member rolls to activate the Instant Death psychic power (as per the standard force weapon rules). He is successful, and the character dies. Now in this situation, where EVERYTHING has been done exactly as per the standard force weapon rules, without the need for any superceding aspect of the GK Dex - It's a psychic power that can be saved against. You cannot argue that any other way IMO.

3: Because GK Brotherhood of Psykers rule says that only one test is required to activate a power for the squad, that first Squad members successful roll applies to the rest of the squad using the ability.

4: The rest of the squad roll to hit, roll to wound and the opponent rolls any invul saves he might have. If he has none, or he fails them, and has multi-wound models in the squad (such as Grotesques for Dark Eldar), the GK squad then has the opportunity to kill those multi-wound models using the Instant Death effect.

5: If it had been a combat where all members of the GK Squad attacked at the same Initiative and ALL rolled after unsaved wounds had been caused, they would then take a psychic test to activate the Instant Death power.

6: However, because one GK squad member already attacked, and successfully activates the power, it applies to these guys striking after him. Now, the GK Dex wording is that their attacks all have the Instant Death rule - this is where the disagreement arises.

The guys arguing against the WTT save because the power is not cast on the wounded target, but on the Nemesis weapon. It's because of that wording on how things are handled with different Initiative values. That's the only place in the GK Dex rules where things are handled differently to the standard force weapon rules. It's the ONLY opportunity for anything in the GK Dex to supercede the standard rules for force weapons, beyond the individual effects of different Nemesis weapon types (+1 attack, +2 Initiative, etc...).

However, that wording is only there to cover the activation of the power when dealing with those differing Initiative values - it does not change the power into something else that targets the weapon instead of the wounded target. That wording of the rule does not apply to an individual GK attacking an individual enemy character (it has no application in that situation, because it is not required), so unless you are saying that it suddenly changes the Instant Death effect into a completely different psychic power (which it doesn't). It HAS to state that the Instant Death effect applies to the rest of the squads attacks, otherwise the Brotherhood of Psykers rule would break when dealing with differing Initiative values. But that doesn't make the power itself different to the standard force weapon rules.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Rosco, yu must reread both entries in the corresponding books. Standard force weapons allow you to turn ONE failed save in to a instakill. Nemesis force weapons turn ALL failed saves in to instakills. A librarian attacking a Tyrranid warrior unit would kill one with a force weapon, bu several with a nemesis force weapon. The only thing they have in common is that they both need a test in fact.

[Egaeus]

I think the disagreement stems from the activation of the Instant Death effect when dealing with multiple initiative values in the GK squad.

I think the disagreement stems from GW's generally sloppy writing and inconsistent and usually undefined use of terminology.

Rosco, yu must reread both entries in the corresponding books. Standard force weapons allow you to turn ONE failed save in to a instakill. Nemesis force weapons turn ALL failed saves in to instakills. A librarian attacking a Tyrranid warrior unit would kill one with a force weapon, bu several with a nemesis force weapon. The only thing they have in common is that they both need a test in fact.

I don't think the numbers really matter at all...I don't really see how one could argue that getting instakilled by a power that requires a psychic test to activate isn't "being affected" by said power.

That to me is really the fundamental issue...as there is no specific definition (that I am aware of at least...there could be something in the FAQs) of what constitutes "being affected" by a power. For example, Hammerhand could be said to be "affecting" a unit if rolls to wound against it wouldn't normally be successful...but I believe most people would probably consider this a secondary effect of the power. I believe this is why people make the assumption that the power has to "target" the unit for it to be saveable...but then we have situations where. for example, we have a power that works like a normal blast and scatters onto a unit with the WTT. The unit clearly wasn't targeted but it was affected.

To me the fundamental issue is that GW doesn't write concise rules.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Oh I agree that it is by no means clear. I just find it wrong to refer to original force weapons when discussing the nemesis ones. They don't work the same dispite of what the codex says. That is my only grip.

Is the unit affected? Certainly. Is that what the rule says? I really don't know. But the unit is also affected if I have reroll to wound. So does affected mean "directly affected" aka targeted? Who knows?

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I don't see what's so bad about considering the source to determine how something was modified. The way I see it, the modification of the NFW is that it instakills everything instead of just one thing. The claim here is that the modification is that the power now affects the weapon instead of the victim. In fact, people here are literally claiming that the special ability of a NFW does not affect the models it's instantly killing, as that's the standard you have to reach. With all due respect to DoctorTom, I call that quite a stretch, based on more extrapolation than rules. To whit:

"...all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict Instant Death." ... The wording establishes that for the Nemesis force weapons, the target of the psychic power is the Nemesis force weapons themselves.

In truth, I'm afraid, it does not establish that at all. In fact the most direct interpretation is that it affects wounds caused. (You can more easily extrapolate that to mean the victim is the target than the weapon!) However, as the wound caused on the victim is affected, the victim is already in the direct chain of causality and cannot be so easily extracted from it.

In short, I think your whole argument is based on something that you've read into the rule you quoted rather than anything that's actually in it.

[Egaeus]

I think the Instant Death issue is pretty cut and dried...at least from the sense of it either gets nullfied or it doesn't (and I still can't see a strong argument for disallowing the nullification attempt).

I think Hammerhand is a more interesting issue. First, does the increased strength count as the power affecting the target? If it does, at what point is the test made to potentially nullify it? I have thoughts on these but am curious what others think...

[Rosco151]

Oh I agree that it is by no means clear. I just find it wrong to refer to original force weapons when discussing the nemesis ones. They don't work the same dispite of what the codex says. That is my only grip.

Is the unit affected? Certainly. Is that what the rule says? I really don't know. But the unit is also affected if I have reroll to wound. So does affected mean "directly affected" aka targeted? Who knows?

They don't work the same despite what the Codex says? Sooooo.... Where do you get how they 'really' work from then? Is there a secret Grey Knights newsletter that went out that I didn't get, with the real rules in it? Where's your gripe? That you don't think that's how they should work?

There are numerous things in the game that I don't think are quite right, but these are the rules to play the game. Tank shock for instance. That's why within my group of players, we come up with homebrew variations, but we wouldn't apply those rules to play outside of the group.

How is it wrong to refer to the original force weapon rules? It says to do so in the first line of the Nemesis weapon section.

The rules tell you how they work. The rules in the Codex and the Main Rulebook.

I don't need to re-read the rules. Force weapons do not turn unsaved wounds into Instant Death, neither do the Nemesis weapons. The unsaved wounds allow the use of the psychic power that causes instant death. They are the trigger for the use of that power. As I've stated above, the only time this process changes is in the multiple Initiative situation, and it only changes so the 'Brotherhood of Psykers' isn't broken. It doesn't change the intended nature of the power.

The Instant Death effect directly AFFECTS the target unit in that it sucks the life force out of them. Hammerhand not so. It strengthens the caster, their increased strength directly affects the target, not the power. The chance to nullify it comes at the time of casting, if you have a psychic hood or (i think) a runic weapon.

[Erik_Morkai]

I think the Instant Death issue is pretty cut and dried...at least from the sense of it either gets nullfied or it doesn't (and I still can't see a strong argument for disallowing the nullification attempt).

I think Hammerhand is a more interesting issue. First, does the increased strength count as the power affecting the target? If it does, at what point is the test made to potentially nullify it? I have thoughts on these but am curious what others think...

So as to not clutter the thread with questions of Hammerhand I will skip the long explanation. If you want I can PM you or you can start another thread I will be happy to explain.

[Egaeus]

So as to not clutter the thread with questions of Hammerhand I will skip the long explanation.

How exactly is it "cluttering the thread" when the original question was about what constitutes "affecting the unit" for purposes of the Wolf Tail Talisman? Nemesis Force Weapons was merely the first example given and has been (or is being) addressed, although it doesn't appear to have any great consensus for resolution at this point. If I want to add Hammerhand to the list of things that can potentially interact with the WTT then I think it is within the scope of what was being asked in the original post.

Perhaps we can discuss Null Zone, the second example listed...I would guess that unless the power actually does something to the unit you couldn't claim that the power was affecting it...so if the unit does not have any Invulnerable saves and thus no requirement to make re-rolls then there would be no roll to negate Null Zone allowed.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Rosco do you stop reading after that first sentence? The first sentence says they work like force weapons, than the rule goes on. And you find out they don't actually. So dispite it saying they work like force weapons, they don't. Why? I gave an example. So yes you do need to reread the rules.
The thing is that while force weapons target the opposing model directly, we are trying to find if nemesis force weapons do. The only thing I sayd was to use the nemesis force weapon entry to find out and not the original force weapon one, since the rules for the two are different.

[Rosco151]

I read your whole post, took it into consideration and responded with my answer, so yes I do read after the first sentence. That's why I picked up on the self-contradicting part in your second post about how they don't work as per force weapons, despite what the rules say?

Once again, the Nemesis rules are only different in that they provide a circumstance for how the rules work when dealing with a squadful of the things instead of a single man with one.

In the Nemesis rules, there is nothing to say that they work any differently than regular force weapons when you are dealing with a single model, with a single force weapon against a single enemy. If you disagree with this, can you show the part that confirms your view? No part of the rules say that, in that individual situation, all of the Nemesis weapon users attacks have instant death. If I'm wrong, please show me the part of the rules that say so.

The same is true at squad level with the same Initiative values - they don't roll to activate at the start of combat and then all following attacks have Instant Death, they would roll hits, wounds, opponent would roll saves, and if any unsaved wounds were caused they would then roll for the power. All as per the force weapon rules. Once again, if I'm wrong, please show the part of the rules that say so.

Once again, as I have pointed out time and time again, the order of events or the precise method of using the power only changes when working on a squad level with different Initiative values at work. Because it has to. Once that first guy has rolled hits, wounds and any saves are failed (this is all as per the Nemesis rules) he then rolls to activate the power. He doesn't activate it before then. That is all as per the original force weapon rules. Once again, if it isn't, please show me the part where it says so (after all, I am backing up my views with actual rules and examples that are printed in the rules themselves).

[TheGreatDalmuti]

The power is different, don't you see? One power gives one of your attacks that have went through instant death. The other power gives all of your attacks that have went through instant death. WHat you are attacking is irrelivant. The two powers are different. So since the weapons give you different powers, are they not differet weapons?

[Erik_Morkai]

The power is different, don't you see? One power gives one of your attacks that have went through instant death. The other power gives all of your attacks that have went through instant death. WHat you are attacking is irrelivant. The two powers are different. So since the weapons give you different powers, are they not differet weapons?

If your only reason for calling them different is the fact that one power grants instant death on one attack and the other on all attacks, I do not see how that interferes with the WTT. In both case the power is the result of a psychic roll, in both case the enemy model or unit is affected by "having the life sucked out of them" by the force weapon psychic power. How is that not affecting the unit or model? Seriously? Who cares if you want to call them different weapon or powers. Both have the effect of draining life from a model. The WTT works.

How exactly is it "cluttering the thread" when the original question was about what constitutes "affecting the unit" for purposes of the Wolf Tail Talisman? Nemesis Force Weapons was merely the first example given and has been (or is being) addressed, although it doesn't appear to have any great consensus for resolution at this point. If I want to add Hammerhand to the list of things that can potentially interact with the WTT then I think it is within the scope of what was being asked in the original post.

Perhaps we can discuss Null Zone, the second example listed...I would guess that unless the power actually does something to the unit you couldn't claim that the power was affecting it...so if the unit does not have any Invulnerable saves and thus no requirement to make re-rolls then there would be no roll to negate Null Zone allowed.

Allright then. WTT would not work against hammerhand. The reason is that a model that dies from hammerhand dies from a regular or power weapon wound cause by successful roll that was easier due to higher STR. If hammerhand said: "Reduce target model's toughness by 2" now THAT would be allowed a save because the power would directly affect the stats line or rules of the target model.