Space Wolves anti-psychic powers Wolf Tail

[Seattledv8]

For example the last Witch Hunters FAQ

Q: Can persistent Psychic abilities (such as Psychic Scream or Veil of Tears) be nulified by the Penitent or the Shield of Faith?
A: No, as they are not being used on the Penitent or including him in their area of effect-they are being used on other models.

[lantzkev]

Psychic Hoods and their ilk can nullify any psychic power...who it targets or affects is irrelevant.

These powers work by stating "when a power is cast within los etc" they make no mention of affecting the unit. This is a point that is irrelevant and unrelated to the conversation.

[Egaeus]

For example the last Witch Hunters FAQ

Which is not on the GW Website. Both abilities also use the wording I quoted previously that the Black Templars ability uses as well, which specifically states "targeting" and "area of effect" which are much more specifc than simply "affected".

So I suppose that I'm curious that if this terminology was sufficient why did GW change it? Why choose a much more broad term like "affected" if that wasn't actually what they meant?

So, two more examples: Astral Aim and Cleansing Flame...would the WTT protect against either of these powers?

Edit: And just to be silly, I could say "Oh boy, my 'Nids get immunity to ID because the 4th edition FAQ says they do!" Heck, if the rumors are true and 6th is coming this summer then maybe this whole discussion will be moot as the rules change once again.

[Seattledv8]

Yes , there are no more Witch Hunters, but it was a 5 ed FAQ.
It is only an example of how GW treated simular rules.
Just an insight on how they will probably rule on it.

[Egaeus]

Hmm...decided to do a search for the old Daemonhunters FAQ...I found it here: http://www.innercirclegamingclub.com...th_Edition.pdf
It looks official...perhaps someone else could verify this?

Interestingly enough it has this to say:

Q. Does a unit with a null rod ignore persistent
psychic abilities (such as Psychic Scream or Veil
of Tears)?
A. Yes. The psychic ability still functions, however
the unit with the null rod simply ignores any and
all effects of the ability.

Now Veil of Tears hasn't been superceded by any new rules and we still have the issue that Null Rod simply states that the unit isn't affected by Psychic Powers, it doesn't nullify them...but if we want to argue "same wording, same intent" then this clearly shows that the power doesn't have to "target" the unit to qualify for nullification.

Edit: As DoctorTom has pointed out before, the old Null Rod has similar wording to its current wording and to the WTT about not being "affected" by Psychc Powers. The other major issue I would have is that this answer refers to persistent powers, which appears to be something GW has moved away from...that is, powers that are "automatically on" as opposed to the issue of being powers that "indirectly" affect units...although I think Veil of Tears is a good candidate for discussion.

Of course now it's your turn to say "Ah, but that's an old FAQ so it doesn't really apply anymore." But then we are back where we started.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Veil of tears directly affects a unit. The unit that targets the Quins.

The discussion of indirect vs direct is a folly imo. Everything you do in the game in a way affects everything else. Whatever power you may use can affect every enemy unit with a chain of cause ->effect. That would lead to the necklase shutting down all powers and the term "affecting" to be moot.

In reality things that do not directlty affect a unit, can't be said to affect them at all. When I use a power to make my marines S5 and then proceed to wound a wraithlord, even though the power was what made my marines able to wound him, the power didn't affect him. My attacks affected him, since I need to attack him for him to know that a power went off.

The complications are to great to say "it can nullify everything". The reasoning then tells you to nullify saved rerolled wounds that happened last turn, because the saved models are now shooting at you, and they wouldn't be if it weren't for fortune ...

[Egaeus]

Veil of tears directly affects a unit. The unit that targets the Quins.

And Guide directly affects a unit. The unit that gets shot at by "the unit with Guide"...you see how that works?

And the main reason Veil was even brought up is that it is referenced in the old FAQs regarding anti-psyker abilities. It does not "target" a specific unit. Nor does it have an "area of effect", unless one wants to define the phrase in very abstract terms. Now if the "current" rules (the only one that I am aware of that is still in effect is for the Black Templars, but that is a 4th Edition book and the FAQ doesn't contain the question regarding its effects) still used that wording we might be discussing what that exact definition is. However, it is a good example because the old Null Rod (which protects the unit from powers "affecting" it, essentially the same wording as the current version and the WTT) can ignore it, so all those posters claiming a precedence, there it is.

The discussion of indirect vs direct is a folly imo. Everything you do in the game in a way affects everything else. Whatever power you may use can affect every enemy unit with a chain of cause ->effect. That would lead to the necklase shutting down all powers and the term "affecting" to be moot.

In reality things that do not directlty affect a unit, can't be said to affect them at all. When I use a power to make my marines S5 and then proceed to wound a wraithlord, even though the power was what made my marines able to wound him, the power didn't affect him. My attacks affected him, since I need to attack him for him to know that a power went off.

I disagree with this, although this may go back to how exactly we are defining "direct" versus "indirect". While we have discussed the issue that if one wished you could track "cause and effect" to "ridiculous" degrees I have always agreed that there are, and must be, limits.

Perhaps part of my issue is considering "power" and "effect" to be one and the same. I say "one and the same" because I don't see it as "you activate the power, the power goes away and there is some lasting effect", I see it as "you use the power and it is active for as long as it says it is". If you make your Marines S5 it is the power that is giving you that effect...without it you could not wound the Wraithlord at all...so any wounds that you inflict are due to the power. Thus the Wraithlord is being "affected by the power".

The complications are to great to say "it can nullify everything". The reasoning then tells you to nullify saved rerolled wounds that happened last turn, because the saved models are now shooting at you, and they wouldn't be if it weren't for fortune ...

And one of the criteria I've suggested for determining "affected" is "Is the power currently active/in effect?", which prevents this sort of excessive chaining. Now at the point when models are making saves it might be an issue that Fortune is affecting the unit by preventing some of the wounds it would have othewise caused...I would even be willing to claim that Fortune isn't affecting the non-Eldar unit (although this in itself might be a good debate). Again, just because we have a cause and effect chain doesn't necessarily mean that it's unbreakable.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

So you must try to find a limit.
To my understanding there is a rule.
If I take it one way, the rule is enough. If I take it another way I must now find limits, anwers to awkuard sitiuations and even then things can kreep up. Guess which way I'll go?

Also imagine this.
I guide a unit. You say guide affects the enemy I am shooting at.
Tell me in what way was the unit affected if I fail my rerolls. Beause the power worked fully, I got to reroll all my failed to hit. I then failed. So since you are affected by guide, and the power worked as intended what did it do to your unit?

[Egaeus]

So you must try to find a limit.
To my understanding there is a rule.
If I take it one way, the rule is enough. If I take it another way I must now find limits, anwers to awkuard sitiuations and even then things can kreep up. Guess which way I'll go?

I'm curious as to what rule you are referring to, as this is the basis for the issue in the first place?
The rule for WTT (similarly worded for Null Rod) is simply "If a model [plus unit if applicable] is affected by an enemy psychic power [it gets a roll to nullify].

Also imagine this.
I guide a unit. You say guide affects the enemy I am shooting at.
Tell me in what way was the unit affected if I fail my rerolls. Beause the power worked fully, I got to reroll all my failed to hit. I then failed. So since you are affected by guide, and the power worked as intended what did it do to your unit?

If you had been following the thread you would know that I have actually addressed this exact issue before as I was asking the same question: What actually constitutes "affected"? I used Doom in the same context, as well as suggesting that any PSA has the same elements...

But to answer your question: the power allows the re-rolls...so we could take it that as soon as you miss with a shot the power is "in effect" (see how that still works?) since you wouldn't normally get to re-roll misses. So I would say that if you have Guide and you miss then I would get a chance to nullify Guide before you get to re-roll at all as the re-roll is the affect (more hits than normal) of the power on my unit. However, since until you succeed at one those re-rolls the the power hasn't really "affected" my unit...but it's not so much the power not having an affect as that effect not really doing anything. Guide is a fairly clean example though, as we can clearly demark that power's effect, we can distinguish "re-rolled hits" from "initial [normal] hits".

As I've said before it's the same issue with PSAs...when exactly do you roll for nullification? As soon as you've passed your Psychic Test? After the roll to hit succeeds (I've actually suggested that for simplicity this could be a good place, despite it being pre-emptive)? Or do we go through the whole process and only after wounds/casualties have been determined do we see if the whole process was all for nought? The way the rules are written suggest that you do indeed have to wait until "after the fact" to negate what's already happened. Although I suppose if one wanted to define "affected" as "being subject to or having to make one or more die rolls, regardless of result" (although technically units don't make rolls, the players do but this is merely semantics). I am unaware of any specific definition of "affected" in the rules.

[DoctorTom]

I'm curious as to what rule you are referring to, as this is the basis for the issue in the first place?
The rule for WTT (similarly worded for Null Rod) is simply "If a model [plus unit if applicable] is affected by an enemy psychic power [it gets a roll to nullify].

If you had been following the thread you would know that I have actually addressed this exact issue before as I was asking the same question: What actually constitutes "affected"? I used Doom in the same context, as well as suggesting that any PSA has the same elements...

PSA's would obviously be able to be negated, since there's a target unit or model in the unit. It gets trickier with the non-PSAs. I do disagree with your statement in your post prior to this, though "And Guide directly affects a unit. The unit that gets shot at by "the unit with Guide"...you see how that works? ". Guide doesn't directly affect the unit that gets shot at - it directly affects the unit that has Guide cast on it. It's a question of whether the indirect effect is negated.

Your bringing in the Veil of Tears doesn't apply here since that does directly target the Harlequins base on the wording. Guide doesn't have the same wording.

But to answer your question: the power allows the re-rolls...so we could take it that as soon as you miss with a shot the power is "in effect" (see how that still works?) since you wouldn't normally get to re-roll misses. So I would say that if you have Guide and you miss then I would get a chance to nullify Guide before you get to re-roll at all as the re-roll is the affect (more hits than normal) of the power on my unit. However, since until you succeed at one those re-rolls the the power hasn't really "affected" my unit...but it's not so much the power not having an affect as that effect not really doing anything. Guide is a fairly clean example though, as we can clearly demark that power's effect, we can distinguish "re-rolled hits" from "initial [normal] hits".

I don't think you can draw the comparison between Guide and Doom merely because both use the word "reroll" - Doom targeting the SW unit while Guide targeting an Eldar plays into this here. I think that it would be best to stick with powers that target the wolves or directly affect them because with indirect effects, there is the argument that it affects something or someone else. It might be that simple for determining effect. Who does Doom affect? The unit it was cast on. Who is affected by Veil of Tears? The unit targeting the unit with it on. Who is the target of Guide? The unit that it is cast on.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Egaeus. When I perform a reroll as you say the power takes affect. This is your chance to negate it. But it hasn't affected your unit yet. I still need to hit with that reroll. And it hasn't affected you unit even then. I still have to wound with my rolls. Then and only then, when you are forced to make armor saves for extra wounds is your unit affected. So do you know which of the wounds where the result of the rerolls? Now I must forget the batch rolling rule so you can determine if the guide really affected your unit?
This is where I draw the line. To be affected by smething it must specify it affects you. "Guide" nowhere specifies an opposing unit. "Fortune" never specifies an opposing unit. Yes if I fortune my unit you might lose a combat you would otherwise win, and end up getting no retreat wounds. But you do not know that when it is your chance to nullify the power. You can't "what if" to get rules. You do not know that I will hit with my rerolls with "guide" when the time comes for you to negate it. So you do not know if you will be affected in the future. The power has already had it's effect when you see if you are "affected".

That happens with several powers. It doesn't happen with powers where the unit is the target. That is a good reason to say target=affected unit.

[Egaeus]

PSA's would obviously be able to be negated, since there's a target unit or model in the unit.

I don't believe I've ever disputed this, only raised the question of when exactly do we consider that the unit has actually been affected by the power so we can roll the save.

I do disagree with your statement in your post prior to this, though "And Guide directly affects a unit. The unit that gets shot at by "the unit with Guide"...you see how that works? ". Guide doesn't directly affect the unit that gets shot at - it directly affects the unit that has Guide cast on it. It's a question of whether the indirect effect is negated.

Your bringing in the Veil of Tears doesn't apply here since that does directly target the Harlequins base on the wording. Guide doesn't have the same wording.

I didn't really intend to bring VoT into the discussion, but it is one of the powers that still exists in the current ruleset (even though the "current" Eldar book is 4th edition) that is referenced in the old FAQs regarding psychic power nullification (the first of which was actually posted by Seattledv8). My comment was meant to poke fun at TheGreatDalmuti's statement since I just changed the power name and the unit using it.

I'm not sure if you saying it "directly target the Harlequins" is a typo or not, but if not, then any affect it has on other units would then definitely count as an "indirect" effect, would it not? And the old FAQ for Null Rod, which uses essentially the same wording as the current Null Rod and WTT (I believe you raised this comparison previously), tells us that Null Rod can negate it. And I have already expressed that I don't know that it's particularly relevant due to it being more concerned with the concept of "persistent" powers rather than "psychic power effects" in general, but as "evidence of intent" I think it does the job.

So...does the WTT allow a roll against Veil of Tears?

Egaeus. When I perform a reroll as you say the power takes affect. This is your chance to negate it. But it hasn't affected your unit yet. I still need to hit with that reroll. And it hasn't affected you unit even then. I still have to wound with my rolls. Then and only then, when you are forced to make armor saves for extra wounds is your unit affected. So do you know which of the wounds where the result of the rerolls? Now I must forget the batch rolling rule so you can determine if the guide really affected your unit?
This is where I draw the line. To be affected by smething it must specify it affects you. "Guide" nowhere specifies an opposing unit. "Fortune" never specifies an opposing unit. Yes if I fortune my unit you might lose a combat you would otherwise win, and end up getting no retreat wounds. But you do not know that when it is your chance to nullify the power. You can't "what if" to get rules. You do not know that I will hit with my rerolls with "guide" when the time comes for you to negate it. So you do not know if you will be affected in the future. The power has already had it's effect when you see if you are "affected".

That happens with several powers. It doesn't happen with powers where the unit is the target. That is a good reason to say target=affected unit.

Even with "batch rolling" one of those "batches" is going to distinctly be "rolls to hit that failed and are being re-rolled"...if any of them hit then my unit is being affected by the power...unless you can show me a direct rules quote that equates "affected" with "wounds or casualties caused". So as soon as you make re-rolls and at least one is successful then I should be allowed a roll to negate those "extra" wounds that were caused because of the power. Also I think you are expecting too much detail in the rules...Guide doesn't have to specify an "enemy unit" because to hit rolls are inherently made against an enemy unit...step one of the Shooting process includes "pick a target" which is "a single enemy unit"...these rules apply even before you reach the "to hit" stage that Guide modifies.

It does happen with powers where the unit is the target...as I've pointed out numerous times any PSA has the same results. That is, you have to make all the rolls to see if the unit "is affected" (if you are assuming that the "affect" is wounds or casualties) before rolling to nullify the power. I have only suggested using "what if" to potentially speed up the process...I don't believe I've ever said it was mandatory, only that in some situations it might simplify the process and prevent some amount of [potentially] needless rolling. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying here, since in effect the save is always normally made "after the fact".

At this juncture I do feel it necessary to reiterate that I am mainly arguing from a "devil's advocate" point of view, although I do feel there are a number of powers (Force weapons which started the thread and powers like Astral Aim or Cleansing Flame) that people could argue are "indirect effects" that I feel should really be nullifiable by the WTT. Powers like Hammerhand or Guide make good "case studies" but I probably wouldn't be too adamant about negating them in a game (despite the fact that as far as I am concerned they do indeed "affect" the unit with the WTT if used against it).