My 8th Ed Bretonnian Book

[ZT Strike]

I recently wrote a book for Bretonnia that would fit them in with the current 8th edition rules. I would like to share it with you and see what you all think. I hope you don't mind, but with GW's complete lack of interest in Bretonnia I thought I would give them a boost if possible.

http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/...onnia_File.zip - Version I

http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/...0b8381af30.zip - version II

Yes I know there are a number of problems with the book. I wrote it with the purpose of being redone in time. It is supposed to be more of a rough draft for testing and game play. I plan on finishing it as feedback comes in. Please; Ideas, Comments, Criticisms?

[Lance Tankmen]

i read up until a part showed up about the knight units.
"The Knights are The Knights of Bretonnia, Order Knights, and Longbows."

LONG BOWS?!?!? COWARDS!!! NO KNIGHT WOULD HAVE SUCH A WEAPON FOR WAR! EXAMPLE A) VIRTUE OF NOBLE DISDAIN!

[Dark Aly]

I thought that almost all of the magic items (there's also too many) and virtues were undercosted. Lion knights seem a little off conceptually to me too.

Try posting this in the rules development forum.

[Bannik]

i read up until a part showed up about the knight units.
"The Knights are The Knights of Bretonnia, Order Knights, and Longbows."

LONG BOWS?!?!? COWARDS!!! NO KNIGHT WOULD HAVE SUCH A WEAPON FOR WAR! EXAMPLE A) VIRTUE OF NOBLE DISDAIN!

The rule for training a longbowman is: Start with his grandfather

[Banville]

Good idea. I'd have an issue with how the Lance Formation works as it's really easy to circumvent by simply placing a character or unit behind your frontline unit so the lance can't be placed there after the charge. Also the lion knights are way off. Bretonnian monstrous cavalry already exist with the Pegasus knights and I'd suggest that if ground-based montrous cavalry were needed then I'd look at larger-than-average horses rather than exotic beasties. Maybe models akin to wingless Pegasi and call them destriers, boulonnais or percherons. Massive horses which carry the mightiest knights and are trained to fight just as savagely as their riders.

i like the rules to allow for a more effective peasant army build but I agree with people who say there are too many Virtues and Magical items.

[ZT Strike]

1) Longbows are knight's who find honor in the ways of the bow. It relies upon a man's strength and skill to vanquish the foe. While it is not the typical knight it was meant to be a different take at the ways of the knight. Many people do have their different views.
2) Virtues and Magic Items. Yes some of them are under or over priced. Haven't been able to put a lot of R&D into them. Also, made more than I thought necessary for flavor reasons, have no problem dropping a few.
3) While I did see the rules forum I did not see a box that said "Rules Development" in it. Unless that was it?
4) Lion Knights. I thought to make another exotic unit of knights other than the Pegasus Knights. If you think something other than lions would work let me know. They are my attempt at the Monstrous Cavalry thread that is going in 8th edition. Note: Problem with a big horse, its still a horse.
5) Any more thoughts would be welcomed. Especially more on the likes side, lets me know if I'm on the right track.

[Banville]

Maybe Fey Knights for the monstrous dudes. Sit them on ghostly horses like the ones that make up the base for the VC throne type thing.

[Dark Aly]

http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumd...elopment-Forum

Here you go.

[ZT Strike]

So you want Bretonnian Vampire Counts????..... Why so many Horses by the way? Its an army of Knights, not horses. If I put a lord on a dragon or unit of knights on a drake no one would complain about it (I think). I just didn't do it because I thought using Lions over Dragons was crunching less over the High Elves gig.

Thanks for the link, was wondering why I couldn't find it. Looking for it in the completely wrong area.

[Banville]

Nope, but I do want to retain the Norman/Breton folklore inherent in the Bretonnian background. Ghostly knights emerging from barrows, I think is perfectly congruent with this a la "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight". Knights on lions just don't fit right for me.

[Dark Aly]

Thanks for the link, was wondering why I couldn't find it. Looking for it in the completely wrong area.

Aye I thought that from your post. The folks who frequent that forum will, on the whole, be able to give you a far more constructive critique. I think that you have some good ideas in there which allow for a greater variety of army types (all peasents, all knights or combined arms) but some of the special rules seem a little over complicated.

Still, I've always found the best way is playtesting with another open minded interested induvidual so you can bounce ideas between yourselves.

The biggest pitfall people fall into when writing army books for their own armies is making them too powerful- even GW fall into that one and they're pros.

[ZT Strike]

Well put, I can understand that argument. Problem is a lot of Bretonnian Lore either confuses me or is simply limiting. I understand the Arthurian Legend part of the lore, but the other stuff seems just pulled out from somewhere. The biggest problem I had in writing the book was how much I was going to stick with the current lore. I think if GW does write a new book for 8th edition, they will have to make at least some changes in the lore (if not a total rewrite). Regardless of what we may or may not like, I have a felling most people would agree that the current lore would be restrictive for a growing army. I put the Lion Knights and Longbows in as a change in the lore. While not typical for what a normal knight is, could they still not be knights?

@Dark. Thanks for comments. Yes I tried to make the special rules as easy to maintain as I could, but some were a little complex. I am trying to may the army as balanced as I can. However I can't R&D much. I will admit that I did attempt to make the Grail Knight's as nasty as can be. I want them to e unquestionably the best knights in the game.

[Lakomasoi]

I took a quick look through it and yes you are on the right track but understand that not everyone will see things the same way you do.

With that said some of the things seem a little forced. Like the lance formation I would honestly leave it as the old one word for word, its been tried tested and works, the only improvement I saw on it was that the characters displace command models allowing the opponent the chance to kill the bsb / fighty character. I wouldn't force the damsels and such to only be in the middle, it makes sense fluff wise but game wise it will cause some problems.

When people say to many virtues and items one of the things with 8th is that they have streamlined many rules and cut down the variety, this is a double edge sword what it does is saves time it's less confusing and its a lot harder for a cheese stick opponent to slide things in and hope they go unnoticed. On the other side it makes for a slightly less customized army, just find other ways to do this. As for cutting some of the items don't be ready to cut a few items, look at the trend of eighth Ed, be ready to save a few and bring them down to eight or ten items, then bump the price up, i'd suggest looking at other items with similar abilities or two items and add the cost together.

I don't fully understand the "Rally the Peasants" rule I would find a way to re-word it, the confusing part is the minimum requirement of peasants, what is a "minimum Requirement of peasants" then you go on to say that you can still spend more points on knights. I like this idea if im reading it right but what I would do instead is something like this.

"If you army is lead by a lord of Brettonia (don't know what the lord level combat character is) then all units with the knight special rule take may add +1 to combat resolution. In addition any unit with the Peasants duty rule that can draw an unobstructed LOS to the Lord or his unit are stubborn as the sight of their lord and retinue all but guarantee victory."

Im with the others on the "Lion Knights" The reason Bretonnia uses horses is because wild horses live in bretonnia ( not sure about lions) and horses are easy to train, and really do give off an air of control and superiority, while a lion I think would be a little more "wild" and to much of no control. I like the idea of expanding the mounted list though, try to keep all the knights on the same type of horse for rules simplicity, except the "exotic" knights. Maybe look at doing something like "fey Riders" knights that have been given a second chance at like for sacrificing themselves for true love or the Fey Enchantress, they return on Semi- Ethereal mounts. Now I say Semi-ethereal because I like play safe, heres my idea.

Fey Knights: (not sure about points so here is a guess) 30

M4 WS4 BS2 S5 T4 W2 I4 A1 LD8

Guardian:
M4 WS5 Bs2 S5 T4 W2 I4 A2 LD8

Equip: Heavy Armor, Two hand weapons
Champion: One knight must be upgraded to a Guardian at no extra cost

Special Rules: Knights Vow, Fey Touched, Move on the Wind, Scouts, Skirmish

Move on the Wind: Being blessed by the Fey enchantress is the greatest honor these knights could have found and have taken up defending the lake and the surrounding woods, unable to bring their horses into their eternal watch these knights have found a new way to move around.
Bound spell Power Level 3: Once in the magic Phase the knights make a move up to 6", this move may not bring them into combat or be used to exit combat. The unit may not end its movement in impassable terrain or within an inch of another unit. The unit takes this move without suffering any penalties for moving through Terrain with "Special Rules"

Fey Touched: Having died and been given a new existence these knights are not part of this world as such any unit shooting or attacking the unit in CC suffer a -1 to hit.


Sorry if I seem a little pushy im on very little sleep and wanted to get this up before going to bed or I would have forgotten. As for something good on the book, You wrote it kudos to you its more than I could have done, and I like most of the stats vs pts on the units except the characters they are pretty wreck for thier point cost look at other armies for comparisons. More to come as I realize my mistakes.

[Snake1311]

Dude....I can't judge on the ideas thematically, but the mechanical execusiton is
so
SO
bad

Sorry, but everything is so ridiculously over the top...you haven't just fixed the subpar options, but you've gone and made the good ones completely over the top.

Some examples from my skim:

- flat out massive boost to the blessing - not only is the basic blessing now much better, but you can choose others if you decide ++5 ward is not good enough. Insane - would have to be costed in unit selections

- combat heroes (lords/paladins) - the latter especially are currently the best selection in the book, and everyone spams them to no end. With that in mind, why the hell have you buffed them specifically on top of the general buffs? For a mere 10 extra points they get a free grail duty AND +1 WS. Their equioment costs are lowered, the equipment isn't scaled from hero to lord, the pegasus cost is dropped by 20% AND they get barding now? (...wut?). This is the place to mention that some of your item and virtue selections are insanely overpowered, and all this snowballs to some insane combat potential for very little cost.

- Dropped price of KotR? With those army buffs they should have gone UP not DOWN.

- Dropped cost of Peg knights by 20% and gave them free barding, you are insane.

- Empire archers are 8pts a dude, why are peasants 5?

- 10pt fast cavalry with free spears and bows and in core. Watch goblin wolfriders cry in jealousy - and they are only not OP because of animousity.

Haven't read the whole thing because it was long. But yeah, you basically need to recost everything.

[Lakomasoi]

After reading what snake Said it gave me more to say, The other issue with a lot of options is that you need to scale the point cost to the total possibility, it might be better to make all the blessings and virtues a shorter list then make it an army wide rule, and finally make these options upgrades for each unit that they can buy at their own cost or MUST buy at their own cost. jsut try not to make them over the top and make them more of slight "Buffs" rather than make me better Bumps, I hoep that makes sense. Also don't mind the trolling you might think your getting, some people want to help just don't know how to say it sometimes.

[ZT Strike]

Thanks for the info. About the points, critical failure of R&D. Also any things that need reworded or cut out let me know.

Rally the Peasants - Rally the Peasants gives all knights +1 leadership and all peasants stubborn. This is an activated special rule that takes effect when you use enough peasants to meet your minimum core of your army. (How that was worded, least along that line.)
What it means: If you meet your minimum army core amount in just model with peasant's duty, you get this ability. IE, if you are playing 2000 point armies and you spend 500 points in peasants (your minimum core amount) Rally the Peasants goes active.

[xavos]

Mounted Yeomen barding, shield and light armour should be +2pts each because otherwise they can be combined together to give an easy +3 save for +3pts. Or just make the shield +2pts because you can retain fast cavalry status.

[Snake1311]

Thanks for the info. About the points, critical failure of R&D. Also any things that need reworded or cut out let me know.

Rally the Peasants - Rally the Peasants gives all knights +1 leadership and all peasants stubborn. This is an activated special rule that takes effect when you use enough peasants to meet your minimum core of your army. (How that was worded, least along that line.)
What it means: If you meet your minimum army core amount in just model with peasant's duty, you get this ability. IE, if you are playing 2000 point armies and you spend 500 points in peasants (your minimum core amount) Rally the Peasants goes active.

I'm not sure thats a particularly good idea in the context of peasant fast cav and peasant archers :/ 5 units of archers and 5 units of fast cav (which are a steal at the moment anyway) and suddenly free banner of discipline everywhere, AND under the LD bubble the peasants can conga and be a pain.

I would generally avoid stubborn in the context of peasants - there are either enough of them to be steadfast anyway, or they deserve to break easy.

The extra leadership can be reflected in a redraft of the virtue of empathy.

[DareX2]

Is there a reason you didn't adhere to the 8th ed army book magic item philosophy of only 8 - 10 magic items? And why would anyone not take items like The Sword of the Lady, which gives you everything but the kitchen sink (which, in this case, would be ignore armour saves), or Armour of the Phoenix (Phoenix? For Bretonnia?) which has two 45 point items (1+ save and 4+ save) rolled into one 50 point item? And Virtue of the Blessed gives +1W - which is usually 50 points in and of itself - as well as +1 to everything else for peanuts afterwards. And the Scroll of Combat sacs the levels of your wizard to sack levels from an enemy wizard, which can't be stopped in any way like all the other scrolls, and can completely eviscerate certain armies (like the two undead armies). Then you have +1 stat banners that can be combined with the items characters can take to make your heroes/lords obscene. The Fey Stone turns Bretonnia into a magic heavy army, which is not something their known for. You have items in your list that are in the common magic items section of the BRB, but at a discount (Tolken of the Damsel)

You have a strange obsession with fire, and I'm going to assume that has to do with your local meta. Everything has access to fire. Damsels get access to the fire lore, the army has access to two flaming banners, one breath weapon sword, one other sword that has flaming attacks, a talisman that gives the unit flaming attacks, Sunday Shooters/Longbows still get flaming attacks. Considering the BRB says this about flaming attacks: "Flaming attacks don't come into play very often, but when they do, they really pay off."

The Blessing is far too good. The way everything interacts - magic items, blessing, virtues, magic, etc. - you can create a lord that transcends any other character in the game.

The army list lacks the Bretonnian feel and theme. It seems to be a mish-mash of units you wished you could use. Bretonnian wizards have access to every lore except Shadow/Death, for seemingly no reason. Militia Cavalry end up costing less than OnG Wolf Riders, and don't have the downside of animosity. Foot knights are in core, meaning that the cavalry themed Bretonnia would most like devolve into hordes of heavy infantry instead. Heavy armour archers seem silly and expensive. The extra items for Pegasus Knights seem unnecessary. Lion knights? I think it's a possibility for High Elves, not for Bretonnians. Grail knights are more expensive, lose their extra attack, and - apparently - have M4 horses. Fey Fanatics are just plain weird. They're basically Empire Flagellants.

This list doesn't feel like Bretonnia. It absolutely doesn't feel balanced. And it doesn't feel in keeping with 8th ed trends.

[ZT Strike]

Sounds like I got a lot of editing to do. I will take a sec to put up my to do list:
1) Cut Magic Items.
2) Redo point totals

Beyond that, I need to think some things over. I need suggestions on what to Keep, change, and/or cut. I am seeing a lot of disapproval but no approvals. Seriously, not one idea here is good? I will state that I do plan to take the army in a different direction. The lore is too restricting, and needs some reworking. I plan on making the army a Feudalistic/Knight Army, not a simple cavalry army. Things I need from you:
1) Lion Knights are unpopular, so I want a replacement other than Pegasus Knights. Pegasus Knights will stay, but I would like an exotic ground cavalry.
2) Reason's to get rid of, AND ALSO KEEP, The longbows. They are not as hated as the Lion Knights, and I want to see if I can make them stick. Yes, they are Knights that also use a longbow. A bow still uses the strength and skill of a man. Not the most honorable way to fight, but some options are not completely honorless.
3) While minorly mentioned, a few did not like the Order Knights. I ask you why Bretonnia can not have Knights on foot? I also want reasons why they should/could stay.
4) Point adjustment recommendations
5) Magic Item does and don'ts
6) Suggestions for the blessing, it needs to be worth giving up a turn. I may cut it completely.