My 8th Ed Bretonnian Book

[DareX2]

My suggestions would be the following:

Follow 8th ed trends in the army books. This means 8-10 magic items, an army-specific lore (which may or may not be in keeping with the Bretonnian theme, I haven't decided yet), monsters/monstrous infantry/monstrous cavalry/big centerpiece mini (or, in this case, things to deal with those monsters), core and signature units generally remain unchanged, army wide theme rules (Animosity, Ambush, Undead, and in this case, the Blessing) are tweaked but not fundamentally changed, etc. I think studying the existing 8th ed books is a great start to this. Also, look over the universal special rules for inspiration.

The magic items should give them fun and unique toys that can't be "made" through any other means (such as combining mounts, magic, common magic items, mundane equipment together.) Some should be pulled from the existing book, some could be new. An example of a good items to keep would be Prayer Icon of Quenelle or Gauntlet of the Duel; these play into the Bretonnian rules and themes. Example of poor items to keep would be Lance of Artois or Armour of Midsummer Sun; these are offered through other means, such as virtues or existing common magic items.

The Blessing is quite good as it stands. 6++/5++ gives Knights a pretty decent bonus, especially the 5++. It means Bret heroes don't need to buy ward saves, and can instead focus on other item builds. What do you not like about it?

Exotic cavalry: I don't think it's necessary, since peg knights are pretty exotic already. Then again, I wouldn't have liked demigryph cavalry if someone had suggested, and I think they're pretty awesome. You could make unicorns a thing, I suppose. It fits better in the theme than lion cavalry. Also, to be fair, I think lion cavalry would be awesome in a High Elf army. The problem isn't the idea, it's that it doesn't fit with the Bretonnian theme. Again, I think peg knights are exotic enough.

Reasons the longbows don't work: they are lothern sea guard without the ASF, Citizen Levy, or spears. Also, for every longbow you can get 3 regular bows, which translates to better potential results in shooting and combat for the unit. The longbow unit simply doesn't add anything; it just makes peasant archers slightly less good for no real reason. Also, were full-plate archers really a thing, historically? That seems really unwieldy.

An example of a "big centerpiece mini" I mentioned earlier would be taking the Grail Reliquae and making it more of a buffing/support unit rather than simply a stubborn unit with a unit filler. For example, instead of propping up a dead Grail Knight - seriously, what noble family would let the peasants truck around their pride and joy like that? - have be it sort of a walking one-man mausoleum, where the Grail Knight's piety and virtue continue to radiate and affect those around it.

It's not that foot knights are bad. Mechanically, making them core plays into the current 8th ed trend of taking big blocks of infantry and eschewing cavalry. This is the antithesis of Bretonnia, who found their niche in cavalry. Moving them to rare (or perhaps special) makes them less fundamental to the army. Fluffwise, a Bretonnian knight without a horse is one of low or no status. Making it core implies that these knights are common. Do they still hold their lands like the other lords? Why are they so common?

Also, Bretonnian themes tend to be Arthurian (Lady of the Lake), cavalry-centric, quest for purity/honour/glory, hunting, monster-slaying, dueling, etc. Rules and fluff that deviate from this will most likely annoy the community. You'd get a better reception if you made up your own homebrew army independent from Bretonnians with the approach you're taking.

[Petey]

I recently wrote a book for Bretonnia that would fit them in with the current 8th edition rules. I would like to share it with you and see what you all think. I hope you don't mind, but with GW's complete lack of interest in Bretonnia I thought I would give them a boost if possible.

http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/...onnia_File.zip

Yes I know there are a number of problems with the book. I wrote it with the purpose of being redone in time. It is supposed to be more of a rough draft for testing and game play. I plan on finishing it as feedback comes in. Please; Ideas, Comments, Criticisms?

Cut down your magic item list to 8 items, reprice them to be appropriate for the current edition. The ratio I suggest is 3 weapons 2 Armor 1 talisman 1 Enchanted 2 banners
examples might be the morningstar of fracasse, a characterful item with a long history in warhammer, it should cost 50 points and have 2 str on the first turn and a chance to destroy Magic weapons of your foes

Second provide 1 virtue per province of Bretonnia

Third, remove pikemen the brets are based on crusader armies from 1082 to 1250 ish. Pikemen are therefor inappropriate

Fourth introduce more hero and lord options. Not every Duke has completed his quest or even started it, nor should Lords who have completed the quest be bothered with the petty politics of the running of the realm. Like Empire there should be 2 lords of martial distinction. Additionally, a non special character peasant hero option is in order

Fifth Rework the virtue so that it costs points, not giving up the first turn.

Sixth change the wardsave to a regen save, make it a full ward save for martial characters and damsels

Seventh come up with a centerpiece model for the army (ie giant monster, reliquae, etc)

Things I liked
a. Your changes to the lance (though they need to be worded better)
b. Options for how the blessing works
c. Rally the Peasant, though it also needs to be worded better. I would suggest that you simply state if 25% of the army is composed of units with the peasant's vow you get these rules... etc


Final suggestions

1. Reread the BRB. In the bret section it tells you waht new units to expect. Spectral Bowmen, Spirit of the Land, Units of Hippogriff Knights, etc. Incorporate those.
2. Pare down the list to its essentials, remembering that this edition is more about units than it is heroes
3. Make sure that your list can support multiple types of armies, not just one type.

[Lorcryst]

I just skimmed through your fanmade army book, and I don't have the current Bretonnia book to compare, but a few things jumped at my eyes :

1) Chaos-like stats with Skaven-like cheapness, no, no, no, NO and NO ...

2) Bretonnia can already do well in 8th ed, there's no need to buff them up the wazoo like you did ...

3) May I have some of what you're smoking ? Looks like very potent weed

[theunwantedbeing]

Erm.....so why in your infinite wisdom did you not make all the magical lances have the rule "Lance." at the beginning of their description?
Very sloppy writing and it makes you look as if all you've really done is copy out the current book but boost things (I noticed a lot of the points costs for things went down while the descriptions stayed identical).

War Lion?
280pt level 3 mage? (yes I know this is a typo, of which there are a bunch)
Pikemen?
Lion knights?

Very odd version of Bretonnians if you ask me, I'm not at all keen.

It's clearly been a fair bit of effort to create so I don't wish to offend or dishearten.
You might want to try to make the whole thing a little clearer and more easy to read though, with the special rules blocked out separately and perhaps colour coded so that we can more easily just skim through it, having it all in the same sort of text doesn't help.

[Duke Ramulots]

I have to say if this were the new book I would shelve my brets and not unshelve them again until a new book was out.

[Grey Seer Kwokka]

Longbows are knight's who find honor in the ways of the bow.

How the hell can anyone find honour in something that a social majority disdains?

I'd like your works more if I were convinced that you were trying to introduce something fresh to the army while retaining it's existing charms, as opposed to just a bunch of stuff you think is cool.

[ZT Strike]

Thanks for the reviews and comments. Already working on Version II. I really didn't mean to make things so uber. Wanted to get some Ideas down and also didn't have much R&D resources.

[Steaknchips]

My take on the archers:

The brets along with Empire try to follow the traditional medival army with the Empire looking more towards late period while the brets are early period. At these times EVERYONE high or lowborn grew up with the bow so there was no need for knights to step onto the field in this role as there was an abundance of bodys trained in this roile equal or better (due to no access to variation in weapon training) than the knights. To this end I've adjusted and editited from the Peasent archers as follows:

-------------------------------------------
CORE
Peasent Archers - 7pts

4 2 3 3 3 1 3 1 5

Villein 11
Musician 5
Standard 10

Light armour 1pt each
Braisers 5pt per unit
Skirmishers 1 (may not take defensive stakes)
Defensive stakes Free with unit

Upgrade to Yeoman Archers +3 pts

Longbowmen may add +1S to the weapon strength of longbows. +1BS. Gain the Quick to Fire rule.

Defensive stakes
Enemy Cav, Chariots, Monst inf, and large targets take D3 S4 impact hits for charging the front of a unit with defensive stakes. They do not get impacts hits of their own and cannot count their ranks for the first round of combat.

-------------------------------------------

Base points dropped. Peasent archers have always seemed a tad over costed for a unit of their type. TK have archers that are cheaper, reliably shoot and can be raised are cheaper while the elven armys are a tad more expensive, shoot better and have better combat stats. Points dropped but not too much as they have defensive stakes for free as a good counter to the chaff units often sent to counter them.

Longbowmen upgrade added to represent the peasent whos become a professional soldier. I'm not sure about the costing on this. 3 upgrades for 3 points make them quite costly for archers, better shooters than the wood elves but retaining a lack of any staying power in combat.

[Duke Ramulots]

To me it's not that you made them uber that turned me away, it's that you seem to want to kill the whole flavor that makes Bretonnia what it is.

[ZT Strike]

Steak, really like the idea. I will see if I can make that work...

[DareX2]

Longbowmen may add +1S to the weapon strength of longbows. +1BS. Gain the Quick to Fire rule.

I think this is a little too much. This makes Bretonnian archers better bowmen than Wood Elves, since these are all the same rules Glade Guard get, except Glade Guard only get +1S if they're firing at short range.

[ZT Strike]

Version 2 now available:
http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/...0b8381af30.zip

Foreseeable Problems:
Some point cost issues, need some more R&D
Some flavor issues. IT HAS CHANGED!

Changes: Pictures!
Point changes
unit edits
Massive amount of flavor added.

Let me know what you think.

[lurker1]

I like the book.

The blessing should be strong. That's the entire theme of brettonia. They are average humans who don't even have gunpowder or the economic base of the empire. The blessing is the only thing keeping them alive. At first I thought +1 attack was OP. But honestly if it was +1 str, ws or I i wouldn't give up the old 6+/5++ blessing for it.

I think you followed the old book too much. Some of your virtues and items can be replicated with common items. Those should get tossed.

Now for the controversial units. First off longbow knights. This one should really go. If you get a new brett player and tell them the army has archer knights they would probably go "yeh thats cool". But to someone like me who has the previous 2 brett books (6th and 4th I think?) they are counter to what a brettonian knight is. The old book, the blue one with the triangle knight formation, even had brettonian laws of chivalry. The first one was no missile weapons. In fact bret knights wont even learn to fire or use the trebuchet themselves. They let peasants do it cuz they have no honor.

Lion knights. Sure I can see what your trying to do. But not lions. Unicorns maybe. Or find something from Athel loren.

Grail knights. I still maintain that you should NOT be allowed to form units of grail knights. In the fluff there was only one grail knight in a chaos invasion with half the dukedom's armies and the personal attention of the fey enchantress. A unit of 6 grail knights would probably include more grail knights than brettonia has.

Also no questing knights? How do regular knights go to grail status? Or are they on quest mode so they never join battles anymore? (would make sense).

I still want a bret monster. An old knight sent to avalon and sent back by the lady after making him giant sized. (something like the green knight but more generic).

I think your missing a great opportunity though. What brettonia has always lacked is distinction between the dukedoms. A knight from quellenes should be different from a knight from mousillon. I would love for a forced unit upgrade like this (i.e. your knights have to come from somewhere)

A unit formed out of the boys who get taken by the fey enchantress would be good too. (this would replace your lion knight entry).

[Thurizdan]

lurker1, do you think that Grail Knights would be better represented as a Rare choice unit, a character choice or a unit upgrade like in the SoC Errantry list?

[lurker1]

lurker1, do you think that Grail Knights would be better represented as a Rare choice unit, a character choice or a unit upgrade like in the SoC Errantry list?

Character. In fact with their rarity you might even be able to make them all SC's. I remember a book where all the eldar pheonix lords were SC's. Shouldnt be hard to differentiate 4-5 different grail knights.

[ZT Strike]

Wall of text

I thank you for the comments, However what you read is version 1 which I released two in the post above.

[Petey]

I like the changes, steps in the right directions. Some more things to think about.

Make the Blessing a 5+ regen save. Have a centerpiece model, like for example a relique carried by knight (unlike the peasant one) that makes all units with the blessing have it as a real wardsave instead of a regen save. This is important, because currently the design is that theblessing is 6 Plus vs s4 and below, and only 5plus vs s5 and higher. Making it universally 5+ might be too strong. Making it regen makes other armies have ways of trying to cope. Add the centerpiece gives you a centerpiece and also a way to buff your units (you might even make it a mount for the damsel.)

Additionally, I would re emphasis the units hinted at in the Big red book. Spectral archers, Spirit of the land, and ghostly knights.

Also, lance penetration is still unclearly written, for example, who takes the dangerous terrain test should the pen test fail? the knights? the enemy? both? how many models?

I think you should remove the 4plus ward save out of the magic items list, you already have access to that in the brb. I like your new list in general though I think the silver chalice is too iconic an item to leave out (though it needs to be updated)

[-Totenkopf-]

Ok, so I never read your book, but I don't play bretonnians either, however, I still have some input. Bretonnians are by far the most boring army in warhammer fantasy. Everything they represent and are supposed to represent has never been written properly by GW and never really fit properly into the game, except for 5th edition when they were included in the box set. The new 8th edition books are... Boring. No new fluff, less items. They are really pushing towards streamlining the game and leveling the playing field, most likely to try to bring the game closer to 40k and a younger audience. Big mistake. Some of the best army books are from old editions, mainly 5th when the game was tremendously fun to play and relatively balanced as no books were really OP at the time. A "proper" 8th edition bretonnian book would be awful. It is taking an already boring army and making it.... more boring.. GW needs to step back and reinvent them and for them to work, need to be over the top in some aspects. Their knights need to be over the top and gross, it's all they have.. Knights or peasants... Boring... So make them not boring..

Anyways, in terms of your book, way to be ambitious. It's a big project and a fun one. Take your time and do your research. Warseer is ok for bouncing ideas from time to time but most of the numpties on here couldn't write a book if their lives depended on it and generally whine about everything, especially GW's books.

I like the idea of lion monstrous cav for them.. How can anyone say they don't fit the fluff? They have no REAL fluff.. Besides, they are covered in lion heraldry and have items referring to them.. Just because the elves hunt lions does not mean that they are thematically for elves.. Personally, I think they would look awesome..

[ZT Strike]

I like the idea of lion monstrous cav for them.. How can anyone say they don't fit the fluff? They have no REAL fluff.. Besides, they are covered in lion heraldry and have items referring to them.. Just because the elves hunt lions does not mean that they are thematically for elves.. Personally, I think they would look awesome..

In all honesty I truly agree, its why I had them. However, the flack was so intense that I dropped them.

Thanks for the comments and info, sounds like someone is just as cynical as I am.

[Duke Ramulots]

No "real" fluff? WTF is "real" fluff? How does Bret fluff become psuedo?

Lion cavaly is stupid just because cats spines cannot bear weight like a horse or even a dog, they're meant to bend. If someone wanted to have heraldric familiars(eg. a lion crest would mean he could bring a lion to battle) or something like that, it would be cool.