Vampire Religion

[TheDungen]

Well vampires are hardly true imortals they still have physical bodies. If the body is destroyed and the ashes scattered the vampire is in essence dead. A demon prince however cant die. well they can be defeated in the matrial world and they go back to the realm of chaos. And maybee they can be killed and absorbed in realm of chaos but thats beyond mortals to achieve.

As for no souls? then where did their souls go? I remember reading that the vampires are in fact a merging of a predatory spirit and the vampies own soul (vampire coutns armybook 6th edition).

The part about having to bend knee is however a large issue but lets not forgett that tzeench made a deal with nefretta to give her the last piece of he puzzle for the elixir of life (6th edition armybook). Also the vampire wouldnt have to give them his own soul, a person cna make deals witht eh dark gods offerign up the souls of others, we see Morthi doing that in the sundering. She doesnt worship the chaos gods she makes pacts with demons as an equal.

[Warrior of Chaos]

It could be that undeath in and of itself eliminates the need for Gods because the soul is bound to the mortal realm, unless the body is destroyed (in the case of vampires). There would seem to be an indication that undeath can potentially overrule the will/power of Gods. Take Krell as an example. A devoted champion of Khorne who is raised to act as a lieutenant to the Lichemaster. It would seem that although bound to Heinrich Kemmler, Krell retains his personality/soul. Though, it is implied that perhaps Kemmler does not have the hold over Krell that he thinks he does. I speculate that Khorne was not pleased to lose one of his champions to undeath in any case.

[gdsora]

I could have sworn reading due to their souls being bound to the mortal plane. Undead was basically the antithesis of gods and what makes them (Chaos). I was under the impression becoming a vampire was basically a big screw you to the powers that be.

[Arnizipal]

i dont think religious symbols hurt vapires themselves but rahter than like with warrior priests prayers, its the faith the wielder of them places in the symbol that hurt the vampire. a sigmarite symbol belonging to a vampire would thus not hurt him since he's the only one placing his faith in it.

Vampires are individuals. Each of them has a separate set of (sometimes imaginary) weaknesses.
Some of them can't cross running water, other are vulnerable to sunlight, other still can't enter holy ground and are repelled by holy symbols.

Necromancy (and Vampirism) is by its very nature a rejection of Gods and the afterlife.

For vampirism I agree, but necromancy is all about communicating with the (passed on) dead.
Hardly an antithesis of an afterlife.

Well vampires are hardly true imortals they still have physical bodies. If the body is destroyed and the ashes scattered the vampire is in essence dead. A demon prince however cant die. well they can be defeated in the matrial world and they go back to the realm of chaos. And maybee they can be killed and absorbed in realm of chaos but thats beyond mortals to achieve.

A scattered vampire is still alive. In essence it becomes a sentient cloud of dust, unable to influence the world around it.
A fate worse than death if there is any, but immortaility nonetheless (just like deamons).

The part about having to bend knee is however a large issue but lets not forgett that tzeench made a deal with nefretta to give her the last piece of he puzzle for the elixir of life (6th edition armybook).

I don't recall reading that in the 6th edition vampire counts armybook.
Unless you were talking about the Hordes of Chaos armybook of course.

I could have sworn reading due to their souls being bound to the mortal plane. Undead was basically the antithesis of gods and what makes them (Chaos). I was under the impression becoming a vampire was basically a big screw you to the powers that be.

Chaos is not above using undead troops.

In the past Nurgle made ample use of undead (zombies in particular).
Valnir the Reaper, a Champion of Nurgle is basically a walking corpse.

[Duke_of_Krondor]

Vampires in Warhammer cut their souls connection to the Aethyr rather than lose their souls. The requirements of their new form often drive them evil/mad (notable exceptions include the Templar Grand Master who got sealed in a crypt - but that was through his own fear of eating people).

[The Devourer]

Chaos is not above using undead troops.

In the past Nurgle made ample use of undead (zombies in particular).
Valnir the Reaper, a Champion of Nurgle is basically a walking corpse.

Chaos may use undead for their own purposes (e.g. nurgle using them to spread disease) but they are just making use of a bad situation- they still hate them. While nurgle troops may appear to be similar to zombies there is a big difference. True undead escape death by binding their souls to the material world so they never pass onto the afterlife. Nurgle's infected are still alive, just held together by his magic, when they do eventually die their souls pass on. Necromancers accept there is an afterlife and gods but they effectively cheat the natural process and Vampires bind their own souls to their bodies. When undead do die their souls don't go to the aftelife. Undead are beyond the reach of chaos and the gods don't like it. It's the reason that undead are the only real threat to chaos- a world ruled by the dead can't be touched by chaos.

[Arnizipal]

Chaos may use undead for their own purposes (e.g. nurgle using them to spread disease) but they are just making use of a bad situation- they still hate them.

Chaos doesn't hate undead. Where did you get that idea?

While nurgle troops may appear to be similar to zombies there is a big difference. True undead escape death by binding their souls to the material world so they never pass onto the afterlife.

Only vampires do that. All the other "greater" undead (those who still have part of their soul) pass on once their body or bindings have been destroyed.

Necromancers accept there is an afterlife and gods but they effectively cheat the natural process

Chaos (and magic in general) is all about cheating the natural provess

When undead do die their souls don't go to the aftelife. Undead are beyond the reach of chaos and the gods don't like it.

No they aren't. Only vampires, who bind their souls into their bodies, are beyond the reach of the aethyr.
Most undead don't even have a soul, the'yre just animated corpses. I highly doubt the Chaos gods care either way.

It's the reason that undead are the only real threat to chaos- a world ruled by the dead can't be touched by chaos.

It can (even dead matter can mutate after all - just look at the walls of Praag) but eventually the gods would starve, which in turn would destroy the undead because of a lack of magic.

[Liber]

It can (even dead matter can mutate after all - just look at the walls of Praag) but eventually the gods would starve, which in turn would destroy the undead because of a lack of magic.

So you're saying that if the gods (nurgle, tzeentch, slaanesh, khorne...and the 'light ones' as well) died than all of magic would go with them? The winds would stop blowing? I don't think thats right, magic is the *stuff* of chaos, but not the actual gods themselves. The gates to the chaos realm would still be open and pouring taint onto the world, their just wouldn't be any 'concious entities with personalities* manipulating everything.

Undead are a huge threat to the Chaos gods (or well they would be if say Nagash started to amass power again).

Speaking of Nagash, if your hypothesis was true, than Nagash would be the biggest ***** of the Warhammer world seeing as his goal is too end all life and rule over all in a state of un-life (zombies ) and if your idea was correct that would also be the end of him and all his subjects. I feel he would certainly know better.

[stormblade]

It can (even dead matter can mutate after all - just look at the walls of Praag) but eventually the gods would starve, which in turn would destroy the undead because of a lack of magic.

Are you sure about this?
I alwayst thought that Aethyr exists irregardless of the entities that dwell within it.

[Arnizipal]

So you're saying that if the gods (nurgle, tzeentch, slaanesh, khorne...and the 'light ones' as well) died than all of magic would go with them? The winds would stop blowing? I don't think thats right, magic is the *stuff* of chaos, but not the actual gods themselves. The gates to the chaos realm would still be open and pouring taint onto the world, their just wouldn't be any 'concious entities with personalities* manipulating everything.

Chaos could live as long as there's energy in aethyr. This energy is what powers daemons, gods and magic in general.
Without emotions to feed it the energy wouldn't flow back to the aethry while the undead spend it by just existing.
Eventually (after a VERY long time) there wouldn't be enough magic to sustain gods and deamons. Not that much later the Winds of Magic would stop blowing, causing all creatures relient on magic (such as undead) to cease to exist.

Undead are a huge threat to the Chaos gods (or well they would be if say Nagash started to amass power again).

Only Nagash and some vampires are actively seeking the end of the gods. All the others either don't care or are mindless creatures to begin with.

Speaking of Nagash, if your hypothesis was true, than Nagash would be the biggest ***** of the Warhammer world seeing as his goal is too end all life and rule over all in a state of un-life (zombies ) and if your idea was correct that would also be the end of him and all his subjects. I feel he would certainly know better.

Just because it is known to us doesn't mean it is known to the inhabitants of the Warhammer World

Are you sure about this?
I alwayst thought that Aethyr exists irregardless of the entities that dwell within it.

True, but since magic would leak into the world through the gates, and none of it would return to the aethyr though emotions the realm would (slowly) dry up.

[TheDungen]

A scattered vampire is still alive. In essence it becomes a sentient cloud of dust, unable to influence the world around it.
A fate worse than death if there is any, but immortaility nonetheless (just like deamons).

Maybee by mortal means but i dont doubt that a powerfull enough wizard (a lord of change for an example) could unravel the magic. While a demon prince is a demon prince forever no one can do anything about that not even their god (although they can make the demon prince wish he was a vampire stuck in dust form as belakor could tell you)

I don't recall reading that in the 6th edition vampire counts armybook.
Unless you were talking about the Hordes of Chaos armybook of course.

Maybee it wasnt the army boom but the "History of the damned" (think it was that name) article in white dwarf which released at the same time. Or i might have jsut made an assumption based on a hint.

Anyway being a vapire doesnt mean you cant become a demon prince,only because you've boudn your spirit to the world doesnt mean those bindign cant be unravaeled if needed.

As for Krell his 'free will' from Kemmler might be risidual magic resitance bacuse he used to serve Khorne, but i've always seen Krell as Kemmler's jailers. Kemmler made a pact with nagash (who first reanimated krell), Krell is there to protect kemmler but also to make sure he upholds his part of the bargain.

However reanimating krella t all migth not have been a wise idea his old master isnt that forgiving. You dont steal a champion of khorne... from the most powerful chaos god... using magic... and avoid punishment. In fact thats just plain stupid, its like asking to have your skull added to the throne. Even if you happen to be Nagash, its even more stupid if you're just Kemmler.
While they're powerful they cant hold a candle to the gods of chaos.

[Arnizipal]

Maybee by mortal means but i dont doubt that a powerfull enough wizard (a lord of change for an example) could unravel the magic. While a demon prince is a demon prince forever no one can do anything about that not even their god (although they can make the demon prince wish he was a vampire stuck in dust form as belakor could tell you)

Any daemon (or god for that matter, but that's quite a bit more difficult) can be destroyed by a more powerful aethyric being.
You could see it as one daemon eating the other and adding the energy to its own.

Be'Lakor could have been destroyed by the Chaos gods. they just chose not to.

Maybee it wasnt the army boom but the "History of the damned" (think it was that name) article in white dwarf which released at the same time. Or i might have jsut made an assumption based on a hint.

I recall a rather bad background story in a White Dwarf by Space McQuirk, about vampires being possessed by daemons (Buffy-style).
It doesn't mesh at all with any background vampires that came before or after it and as such it's been largely ignored.

As for Krell his 'free will' from Kemmler might be risidual magic resitance bacuse he used to serve Khorne, but i've always seen Krell as Kemmler's jailers. Kemmler made a pact with nagash (who first reanimated krell), Krell is there to protect kemmler but also to make sure he upholds his part of the bargain.

Kemmler is his own jailer already. Part of the bargain that restored his sanity states that he has to make a certain amount of sacrifices to Nagash/the Chaos gods (depending on the source of the story) on regular basis (daily?) or risk being turned back into the half-mad beggar he was.

Krell's soul never fully passed on to Khorne, since it was bound in Krells body upon death (which is why he is a wight). As such nothing was stolen from Khorne. In fact I think the Blood lord would be quite please with the carnage Krell causes at Kemmler's command.

[CommanderCax]

Chaos could live as long as there's energy in aethyr. This energy is what powers daemons, gods and magic in general.
Without emotions to feed it the energy wouldn't flow back to the aethry while the undead spend it by just existing.
Eventually (after a VERY long time) there wouldn't be enough magic to sustain gods and deamons. Not that much later the Winds of Magic would stop blowing, causing all creatures relient on magic (such as undead) to cease to exist.

True, but since magic would leak into the world through the gates, and none of it would return to the aethyr though emotions the realm would (slowly) dry up.

Well, the aethyr is energy and the entities therein are energy given form/coherence/gestalt by an (mostly collective) impulse from the physical world. The emotions just feed the entities to keep their coherence/gestalt, but are not responsible to let energy flow back to the aethyr. Mainly the Vortex on Ulthuan (next to a multitude of standing stones everywhere in the Warhammer World (especially Albion)) is responsible for drawing energy back to the aethyr (otherwise the Warhammer World would have drowned in it as well as in the accompanying daemons millenia ago). As long as the gates at the portals are "open", aethyric energy will flow into the physical world; and as long as the Vortex exists, aethyric energy will be drawn off. So, I doubt the Winds of Magic will stop "blowing". Anyway, I furthermore doubt you can see the aethyr that physically by saying it could run "out of energy", especially since the aethyr is sort of (made up of) energy. It's similiar weird to say our physical universe runs out of matter (or energy for that matter...).

Apart from this, especially Nagash made much use of Warpstone for the very reason of not being too dependent on the Winds of Magic. A good battery always comes in handy, when everything gets dark...

Maybee by mortal means but i dont doubt that a powerfull enough wizard (a lord of change for an example) could unravel the magic. While a demon prince is a demon prince forever no one can do anything about that not even their god (although they can make the demon prince wish he was a vampire stuck in dust form as belakor could tell you)

A god can indeed end the existence of one of his daemons. A daemon is 'born' when a Chaos Power gives up little of its accumulated power to create a seperate being. This power binds a collection of senses, thoughts and purposes together, giving a personality and consciousness that moves within the aethyr. The Chaos Power can reclaim the power and independence it has given to its daemon children at any time, thus ensuring their loyalty. It is only through the loss of this power that a daemon can be 'killed'. Its mind dissolves into the whirls and currents of warp space.

[TheDungen]

Its not truly killed when its consumed, its essence just becomes part of a larger essence. True it ceases to eb aseparate creature but there's nothign saying that if the emption its linked to becomes more powerful in the mortal world it wont reemerge. Ofcourse weaker demons are not very individual in the first place so you likely coudlnt tell the diffrence between a old demon and a new one emerging.
And i've never heard of a demon prince that have been destroyed by the chaos gods only those put through fates worse than death.

[Arnizipal]

Well, the aethyr is energy and the entities therein are energy given form/coherence/gestalt by an (mostly collective) impulse from the physical world. The emotions just feed the entities to keep their coherence/gestalt, but are not responsible to let energy flow back to the aethyr. Mainly the Vortex on Ulthuan (next to a multitude of standing stones everywhere in the Warhammer World (especially Albion)) is responsible for drawing energy back to the aethyr (otherwise the Warhammer World would have drowned in it as well as in the accompanying daemons millenia ago). As long as the gates at the portals are "open", aethyric energy will flow into the physical world; and as long as the Vortex exists, aethyric energy will be drawn off. So, I doubt the Winds of Magic will stop "blowing". Anyway, I furthermore doubt you can see the aethyr that physically by saying it could run "out of energy", especially since the aethyr is sort of (made up of) energy. It's similiar weird to say our physical universe runs out of matter (or energy for that matter...).

I always figured the Chaos gods need to spend energy to affect the Warhammer World (creating/sending daemons, influencing mortals, spreading plagues and wars,...). For this investment they would be rewarded by the extra emotions and worship that followed their interventions, which allows the gods to grow in power.

As such, when the gods would try and do the same thing to a world ruled by undead, they'd gain little to nothing and would continue to grow weaker until they finally disappear through lack of energy.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way?

And i've never heard of a demon prince that have been destroyed by the chaos gods only those put through fates worse than death.

One reason for that may be that daemon princes are incredibly rare, and destroyed daemon princes even more so.
It also hasn't got the dramatic impact that the "fate worse than death" has, so describing the history of the rise and fall of a daemon prince ending with the prince being utterly destroyed isn't that interesting from a storytelling point of view.

[TheDungen]

Maybee so. As for the spending energy i always figured there was an energy principle to the realm of chaos too you cant create or destroy the enregy just redistrubute it.

[Fear Ghoul]

For vampirism I agree, but necromancy is all about communicating with the (passed on) dead.
Hardly an antithesis of an afterlife.

In the real world, Necromancy is about communicating the dead. In Warhammer, Necromancy is about raising the dead or extending one's own life. Either way, it is a definitive rejection of Gods, the afterlife, and the natural order. Vampires do the same thing just much more quickly.

Chaos doesn't hate undead. Where did you get that idea?

The Undead represent power stolen from the Chaos Gods. A Necromancer has to steal part of a soul from the Gods in order to raise the dead. Nagash took this to the most logical extreme by attempting to turn the whole world into Undead, which would have stolen every soul (or part of it) from the Chaos Gods, effectively destroying them. On the other hand, the Chaos can and willl raise the dead themselves or ally with the Undead when it suits them.

Only vampires do that. All the other "greater" undead (those who still have part of their soul) pass on once their body or bindings have been destroyed.

Technically Liche's remain as well, since they too have bound their souls to their bodies.

It can (even dead matter can mutate after all - just look at the walls of Praag) but eventually the gods would starve, which in turn would destroy the undead because of a lack of magic.

This is a common error. Magic is independant of the Gods. The Old Ones for instance used Magic before it was Chaotic, and the Slann used it before the Polar Gates fell. If the Gods were to die then Magic would still enter the world through the Gates, because the Realm of Chaos does not require the existence of Gods either. Also since the Realm of Chaos is infinite, there is no concept of limited supply.

[Arnizipal]

In the real world, Necromancy is about communicating the dead. In Warhammer, Necromancy is about raising the dead or extending one's own life. Either way, it is a definitive rejection of Gods, the afterlife, and the natural order. Vampires do the same thing just much more quickly.

I really don't see how you go from extenting your life to rejecting the gods. Not all gods are depcited as having an afterlife.
Most humans believe they go to Morr after they die. Necromancy is a blafemy to Morr, but I don't think a necromancer autmoatially rejects all (other) gods.

And either way, all magic is a rejection of natural order.

The Undead represent power stolen from the Chaos Gods. A Necromancer has to steal part of a soul from the Gods in order to raise the dead.

No they don't. Once a soul has passed on it's nearly impossible to retrieve (even Nagash only managed it once).
Skeletons and zombies are just animated with magic and nothing else. They have no soul left at all.

Technically Liche's remain as well, since they too have bound their souls to their bodies.

That's what I said, greater undead

This is a common error. Magic is independant of the Gods. The Old Ones for instance used Magic before it was Chaotic, and the Slann used it before the Polar Gates fell. If the Gods were to die then Magic would still enter the world through the Gates, because the Realm of Chaos does not require the existence of Gods either. Also since the Realm of Chaos is infinite, there is no concept of limited supply.

The Old Ones used magic that was filtered by the gates when they were still intact.

I don't see the Realm of Chaos as having an infinite supply of energy. It's actively leaking into the Warhammer World and it has to come from somewhere. As I explained in my previous post, the Warhammer World seems to be the main power source of energy for the Aethyr (through worship and emotions).

[Craze_b0i]

I don't see the Realm of Chaos as having an infinite supply of energy. It's actively leaking into the Warhammer World and it has to come from somewhere. As I explained in my previous post, the Warhammer World seems to be the main power source of energy for the Aethyr (through worship and emotions).

Warhammer world is not the only planet in the universe, the existence of Old Ones tells us that, plus of course the fact there are stars in the sky.

The Old Ones used magic that was filtered by the gates when they were still intact.

Pretty sure there was magic in the world before The Old Ones built the gate. Dragons for example are magical creatures.

[Still Standing]

Fairly sure that nothing has changed since those great books Realms of Chaos in regards to the nature of the Aethyr, or the Warp, or the Realm of Chaos, whatever you want to call it. The other realm that is the source of all magic is like a great sea. Mortal emotion leaks through in the form of souls and emotion. These souls are attracted to other souls of a similar nature, so on a very simplistic level an angry soul is attracted to another angry soul. Where these souls merge a disturbance in the sea (not the force) appears. A storm, if you like. When this storm gathers enough energy and momentum is begins to gain self awareness and the ability to interact with the ocean around it. It is not, however, able to directly influence the Warhammer world. In order to do this is is able to siphon off an amount of it's energy into another entity. This entity is essentially still part of the original, but is given an amount of self awareness and self control, how much is up to the host "god". The God can at any time return the energy back to itself, destroying the Daemon for all intents and purposes, or it can sever the connection with the Daemon, essentially creating an independent daemon that is not reliant upon influence from the material world.

In the event of mass extinction of sentient life on the Warhammer world (and all others) there would be no influx of emotion and souls to feed the Gods. The raging torrent of the Storm of Magic would slow and the Gods would lose power. The Gods would then have two options. Die, or transfer 100% of their energy into an independent Daemon, who is effectively as powerful as the God is at that exact moment, can never gain more, and runs the risk of being killed and absorbed by a more powerful God or Daemon (this is an example used in Realms of Chaos). Without the storms / Gods the Aethyr would be calm and the winds of magic much more lethargic. This would severely weaken all magic in the Warhammer world, making the more powerful and flashy stuff impossible, I'd imagine.