A theory on the Imperial Griffon

[Lord Squidar]

OK so the new model is awesome, and huge, and I think I understand why they went in this direction. Two armies at the moment have griffons, the High Elves, and the Empire.

High Elves: They get their griffons from the Annullii mountains. I believe that the griffons, while tame, are allowed to roam free, as do the high elf horses. There are no stables and breaking in of the beast, they are free range. When the lord needs to ride his horse or griffon, he calls it, and talks to it in animal speech, and off they go. Its more of a contract of use than a master/beast relationship. Thus the griffons would be closer to their natural form, so example a mustang horse. Smaller and faster.


Now to the Empire. They have been using griffons for a long time, but do not have the animal speech and rearing skills of the high elves. The griffons are kept in stables, and probably broken in, much like any horse would be. Since they can't just sing to the air and have their friends arrive, they are are bred in the stables. Like any breeding program that lasts at least 2500 years (Sigmar's time), it has a severe impact on the animals themselves. As armour got heavier, the animals needed to be stronger and bulkier, and selective breeding would have brought this about. Where High Elves ride Mustangs, the Empire ride those massive muscled Norwegian horses x 10.

It makes sense to me, and although the stats are the same, a human warrior and an orc have the same strength stat, so its not such a big deal

[Necanthrope]

I think your theory holds water. But the true reason is probably GW's love for making big things at the moment. I don't like the new griffon myself, I was hoping it would be more like the high elf griffon from island of blood.

[Iron_Lord]

The high elf griffin is very cool- but also rather more falconiform than past griffin models.

The imperial griffin being more eagle-like as well as bulkier, might have to do with it being a different subspecies: "Old World Griffin" compared to the "Annulli Griffin"

[Craze_b0i]

That explains why it got bulkier, but why did it's head shrink?

[Iron_Lord]

As far as I can tell it didn't- the body grew but the head remained the same size, so to speak.

[Col. Tartleton]

Griffons, Hippogryphs, Pegasi, Chimeras, Manticores, etc. are chaos creatures.

Ulthuan has far less chaos taint than the Empire because of the Vortex. So they're less mutated. The new Imperial Griffons are prone to mutations like two heads. But on the plus side they're the size of houses, it would be silly not to use them. That's why you might see a Jabberslythe in Imperial territory but not in Ulthuan.

[TheDungen]

While it feels right that empire griffons should be bulkier than the high elf versions it feels wrong that an imperial griffon should be mightier than an elvish one. Arent the griffons of charce descibed in like the 6th edition army book to be the most powerful of their kind?

Griffons, Hippogryphs, Pegasi, Chimeras, Manticores, etc. are chaos creatures.

Ulthuan has far less chaos taint than the Empire because of the Vortex. So they're less mutated. The new Imperial Griffons are prone to mutations like two heads. But on the plus side they're the size of houses, it would be silly not to use them. That's why you might see a Jabberslythe in Imperial territory but not in Ulthuan.

Ulthuan does not have less chaos taint than the empire Ulthuan is the grounding rod of the warhammer world. The anulli is often decribed as being a part of another world. you could propably see demons manifest there.
They are also creatures of chaos descent not chaos creatures. They are beings created by chaos during the time of chaos but each individual griffon is born from other griffons rather than a mutation from a lion and an eagle (which the first griffons were). same goes for the other creatures you described.

[eldargal]

I thought someone said the Imperial Griffons being bred in captivity was mentioned in WD or the army book? Hope that is true. I rather like the idea of the Empire breeding griffons to be bigger, stronger and more vicious than their wild counterparts.

[Iron_Lord]

It's definitely in the White Dwarf- haven't seen the army book yet since its not out and the local stores don't have an early copy.

On differing head size relative to body- compare Shetland ponies to carthorses. If you selectively breed an animal for size, the body might tend to grow more than the head does.

[Craze_b0i]

It's definitely in the White Dwarf- haven't seen the army book yet since its not out and the local stores don't have an early copy.

On differing head size relative to body- compare Shetland ponies to carthorses. If you selectively breed an animal for size, the body might tend to grow more than the head does.

Well carthorse is not a very good example because they don't have particularly shrunken heads relative to size. Also a carthorse is a beast of burden, whereas a griffon is a fighting beast, hence a strong head and jaws (or beak in this case) would be more important.

[Iron_Lord]

Well carthorse is not a very good example because they don't have particularly shrunken heads relative to size. Also a carthorse is a beast of burden, whereas a griffon is a fighting beast, hence a strong head and jaws (or beak in this case) would be more important.

It's more noticable when you compare carthorse to Shetland pony- or better yet, miniature Shetland pony.

Compare a Scottish Terrier to a Great Dane
Compare a domestic cat to a Siberian Tiger
Compare a goldcrest to a Raven
Compare a pygmy owl to an eagle owl
Compare a falconet to a gyrfalcon

Consistantly, the smaller animal will tend to have a larger head (relatively) than the bigger one.

[Jape]

Plenty of good logic - High Elves are hippies and the Empire are eugenicists. Just as it should be.

[Athelassan]

Arent the griffons of charce descibed in like the 6th edition army book to be the most powerful of their kind?

Probably, but then every troop type is described in every army book as the mightiest of their kind these days.

[m1acca1551]

One could argue that the griffons of the old world are simply larger and more ferocious due to evolution and the enviroments in which they live?

There are far more natural prey and larger prddators in the old world as opposed to ulthuans relativley peaceful island that there creatures are more gracefull as opposed to stronger and more violent old world variants.

This combined with an imperial breeding program would ensure that old world griffins are innately more vicious and once mature are far more imposing than there HE cousins.

[Craze_b0i]

But why would you compare carthorses and shetland ponies? One is not evolved from the other.

It's not about size its about purpose.

On balance however I don't think anymore the head is as small as it looked from first appearances, it just looked small from angle of the photo that leaked on the rumour section.

[Iron_Lord]

But why would you compare carthorses and shetland ponies? One is not evolved from the other.

It's not about size its about purpose.

A few hundred years of selective breeding isn't necessarily going to increase a creature's head size much. Quite apart from eagles killing with their claws rather than their beaks- and griffins being modelled on eagles.

The point I was trying to make is- regardless of evolution- larger land creatures will tend to have smaller heads relative to their bodies than smaller creatures do. Even if both are of the same species.

it may have to do with the laws of physics- as a creature scales up, it becomes more difficult to manage a heavy head- since mass is cubed, but neck area is only squared.

That's why giant sauropods have tiny heads, compared to their ancestors.

Or it may have to do with neotony- little dogs retain "puppylike" proportions into adulthood, but big ones don't.

[eldargal]

Incidentally, Cruddace confirms centuries of selective breeding created the imperial griffon, in the Empire video on the GW website. Just if there was any doubt.

[Beastlord]

So example a mustang horse. Smaller and faster. High Elves ride Mustangs

As far as I can remember Elven steeds are supposed to be huge powerful beasts...

[rune]

...but not significantly larger or more powerful. You've been reading some new fluff eh? heheh..

[FashaTheDog]

Why are Imperial griffins' heads so small? Probably all the steroids they take.

As for breeding them to be that different in such a short time, you need to take a note from Red Mage; once you've maxed out your animal husbandry skill and shot magic into their chromosomes until they turn inside out, such a thing is child's play.