Help Beating Space Wolves? 1850 points

[scapegoatboy69]

40K Army: Dark Eldar

So, there's this player. He must be defeated for the sake of all mankind.

His approximate list @ 1850, 19kp:

HQs:
4 Rune Priests w/ Living Lightning, and Chooser of the Slain. (They join the Grey Hunters)

Elites:
5 Wolf Guard: all w/ Powerfist and Combi melta (split between Scouts and Grey Hunters)
5 Wolf Scouts w/ Meltagun
5 Wolf Scouts w/ Meltagun

Troops:
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Melta, Wolf Standard, Rhino
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Melta, Wolf Standard, Rhino
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Melta, Wolf Standard, Rhino

Fast Attack:
Landspeeder w/ Multimelta and Heavy Flamer
Landspeeder w/ Multimelta and Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support:
6 Longfangs w/ 5 Missile Launchers and a Las/Plas Razorback
6 Longfangs w/ 5 Missile Launchers and a Las/Plas Razorback
6 Longfangs w/ 5 Missile Launchers


How it's played:
Rhinos deployed behind las/plas backs. Landspeeders hanging out on the flanks using vehicles for cover. Longfangs deployed centrally, usually right behind and above Rhinos. Wolf Scouts Outflanking.


The main problems I'm running into:
1. It feels like his army has point for point more value than mine.
2. The missions tend towards annihilation, and I'm usually at 5 or so more KP than him at any given point value.
3. It feels like being faster or having strategy doesn't matter.


I've got the following models:

HQs:
3 Haemies (Could be Urien)
1 Archon (Often Proxies Duke, Malys, or Vect)
The Baron
1 Succubus (could be Lelith)
Drahzar (or a Klaivex)

Elites:
10 Incubi
15 Mandrakes (often proxy as Harlequins)
5 Harlequins
6 Grotesques
Many Trueborn and Bloodbrides (taken from troop choices)

Troops:
20 Wracks
30 Wyches
30 Kabalite Warriors
10 Hellions (serve double duty as beastmasters)

Fast Attack:
10 Khymera, 10 Razorwing Flocks
12 Reaver Jetbikes
10 Scourges

Heavy Support
3 Razorwing Jets / Voidraven Bombers
3 Talos / Cronos
2 Ravagers / Raiders

Dedicated Transports:
3 Venoms
3 Raiders (potentially 2 more if no Ravs)

So, great and mighty internet, I beseech thee for guidance.

[paladin777]

I would like to point out that his list isn't legal. I play the wolves and I see a couple of no-no's
First, his rune priests all need to be outfitted differently, there can be no complete redundency in SW HQ's.
Second, I don't have a codex on me, but I'm pretty sure that in order to have a second special weapon in the grey hunters packs you need to have max squad size (10)

I've faced my friend's DE a number of times with numerous armys (eldar, SW, tyranids, Thousand Sons chaos, and Orks), and since the new codex, I have never beaten him. He uses a fully mechanized list with every vehicle armed with dark lances and shadow fields (those are annoying). The only HQ he ever fields are heamies.

I guess a typical list for him is kinda like this

3 heamies (maybe or just one if points are tight)

3 trueborn with splinter cannons in venom or raider with dark lances (2-3 squads of these)

10 strong warroir squads with splinter cannon and I think blaster (i could be wrong on the blaster) in raider with dark lance. (as many of these as he can)

2-3 ravegers with 3 dark lances each.

this list is horrifyingly efficient as I've been almost tabled a few times and never even infilcted 50% casualties on him.

[Inquisitor Kallus]

This 'playa' is taking the proverbial 'mickey'. I suggest you show him a close up, of the codex, with the BRB backing it up, to his face, multiple times...

[Tokunator]

yup, if that"s his army, it is not legal.

Grey Hunters need 10 man for a second special (and a Wolf Guard doesn't count, so 10 Grey Hunters or no second special).

All Psykers must have a different choice of Psychic Powers, though he could get around that one by choosing Lightning and each time something else.


If I were you, I'd use Baron Sathonyx leading a pack of 14 Hellions (Baron +14 equals 3 boxes worth) and hug cover to get close enough (3+ cover for the win) to start shooting up Long Fangs. 30 shots should cause enough saves to knock off a few before you get into close combat. 10 are not enough to cut it. This unit should also contain a Haemonculus with Hex Rifle who leaves the unit in turn 1 to go sniping, but leaving his pain token with the hellions (actually, the Rifle is just so he does something other than providing a pain token). Sathonyx should also give you first turn.

For the rest, get Venoms with 5 Warriors with Blaster (3-4 units) and some Raiders with other stuff. Park Ravagers behind that to get cover saves to stun his tanks. If the tank is stunned, the passengers can't shoot either unless they disembark, thus making them useless or vulnerable. Stay in your transports as long as possible, you're dead outside.

The trick is to choose your targets and stick with them till they are down. Hose the Long Fangs with as many Splinter shots as you can, sooner or later they will go down. Then kill units that are out of cover and mop up survivors with your Hellions.

If possible, try to deploy in a way that blocks his LOS. Three packs of Long Fangs are difficult to deploy in cover and with good LOS over the whole field, so try to use terrain to block one or two units and then kill off the other first. If you run straight at him, you'll lose.

[Gaargod]

I would like to point out that his list isn't legal. I play the wolves and I see a couple of no-no's
First, his rune priests all need to be outfitted differently, there can be no complete redundency in SW HQ's.
Second, I don't have a codex on me, but I'm pretty sure that in order to have a second special weapon in the grey hunters packs you need to have max squad size (10)

Right on both counts. Specifically, rune priests can't even all have the same powers, even if you take different equipment. You can manipulate it though - you could have Living Lightning/Murderous Hurricane, LL/Jaws, LL/Tempest's Wrath, LL/Storm Caller. If you really, really wanted living lightning, that is.

Dual special weapons is just straight up cheating / not reading the entry at all.



Generally speaking, the most 'efficient' choices revolve around the following options:

5 Warriors with Blaster in Venom with dual splinter cannons = 125
Ravager with 3 dark lances + flickerfield = 115 (drop flicker if totally strapped for points)
4 Trueborn with 4 Blasters in Venom with dual splinter cannons = 173
9 Wyches with Haywire grenades, shardnet. Upgrade one to Hekatrix with agoniser. Stick in raider with dark lance (and flickerfield if points) = 208 (218)
Haemonculus with agoniser (maybe liquifier) to ride with wyches = 70 (80).

Gives you a lot of anti-tank via blasters etc, wyches provide a bit of combat punch and can tarpit, venoms shoot the rubbish out of infantry. About 4 x warriors, 2 x wyches, 2/3 x trueborn, and 2/3 x ravagers. Build the rest of the army to taste around these elements.

For example, I quite like the Baron + Hellions. Especially if you're manipulating pain points by taking an extra haemy and a min sized unit of wracks to make them start with 2 pain points for furious charge + FNP.
I also like reavers, although they're not generally regarded as the most efficient of units. Incubi are the same - funky, but there are more efficient things about. If you're going to take them, a small unit with an archon to lead is fun.

Looking at your available models, your main problem would be the lack of venoms. Unfortunately, in terms of points/killyness, venoms are amazingly good value. Against marines for example, each one can happily be shooting 4 wounds per turn before saves (12 shots, 3s to hit, 4s to wound). Doesn't sound much, but with their range and spammed numbers, you can happily remove a long fangs unit per turn, and they obviously don't care about cover.

With the sheer number of blaster/dark lance shots, you really should be removing most of his vehicles very early on. Especially if you take advantage of your speed, and there's a reasonable amount of cover on the board.



Oh, and tell him to cut out the crap with annihilation games. Roll for game types, it's important. It would also give him, with his 3 fairly small and weak troops, serious issues.

[althathir]

Just looking at his list, Its got to be at least 2000 points, the rune priests & long fangs (with razors) are over a 1000 points.

edit: Added it up, theres at least 1940 points in the wolf list, that in addition to adding a few flamers or meltas illegally, is enough to make it pretty tough to beat. Granted im counting chooser of the slain 4 times, and he may only have it on or two, but im pretty sure he has to have different wargear as well as powers (I don't spam rune priests) so he would have to add some plasma pistols, runic armour, etc. to make them all different.

2nd edit: Gaargod is right about playing different mission types as well, the wolf list would struggle in objective games and I don't think it would do well in dawn of war missions either cause he would lose turns of shooting with his fangs and thats most of his ranged shooting.

[scapegoatboy69]

It's probable that I botched a few things when pulling his list together. The Grey Hunters should just have a normal Melta, the priests all have LL and one other psychic power and some of them have different 5 point pieces of wargear to fit the requirement. He never uses the second power so he never keeps track of which one is which. Probably 3 Rune Priests at 1850, now that I think about it.

I suppose that one of my biggest problems is the lack of Venoms, since they're the easy answer to the Longfangs. Taking Splinter Cannons on my Trueborn or Kabalites, or grabbing Disintegrator Cannons on the Raiders would probably help on this, right? For a while I'd been pinning my hopes on Razorwing Jets, but trading 155 points for a single Longfang pack isn't quite worth it, especially since they've gotta be reserved when going second.

By the way, what do you guys do when going second with DE? It often feels like I get shot off the board on T1 vs. this list.

EDIT: With regards to the mission types: the local TO usually runs annihilation and only annihilation for missions. I generally get accused of tailoring my list when I push for a Seize Ground or C&C game with 5-6 troop choices in fast skimmers.

As for terrain, we've got piles of those wrecked buildings with loads of windows, and bunches of forests and hills. I don't think we have anything that'll actually block LoS.

Figured I'd add a list.

1849 pts,
HQ 120
Haemy 60
+ Liquifier Gun

Haemy 60
+ Liquifier Gun

Elites 410
3 Grotesques 205
+ Abberation, Liquifier Gun
+ Raider, Nightshields, Flickerfield

3 Grotesques 205
+ Abberation, Liquifier Gun
+ Raider, Nightshields, Flickerfield

Troops 650
10 Kabalite Warriors 200
+ Dark Lance
+ Blaster
+ Raider w/ Flickerfield

5 Kabalite Warriors 150
+ Blaster, Sybarite, Blast Pistol
+ Venom w/ 2 SCs

5 Kabalite Warriors 150
+ Blaster, Sybarite, Blast Pistol
+ Venom w/ 2 SCs

5 Kabalite Warriors 150
+ Blaster, Sybarite, Blast Pistol
+ Venom w/ 2 SCs

Fast Attack 262
3 Beastmasters, 3 Khymera, 4 Razorwing Flocks 132

3 Beastmasters, 3 Khymera, 4 Razorwing Flocks 132

Heavy Support 405
Ravager 125
+ Flickerfield, Nightshields

Ravager 125
+ Flickerfield, Nightshields

Razorwing Jet 155
+ SC, Dissintegrator Cannons

[althathir]

Ok 3 rune priests and just meltas makes the list alot more reasonable and make more sense (1 priest for each rhino). The reason most people mentioned the melta & flamers, and I brought up the points is because those actually are fairly common mistakes.

1) I don't have alot of experience playing DE (I play space wolves and CWE), but I would consider putting everything in reserve if you go second. Its risky because you guys can't modify reserve rolls but if you don't have LOS blocking terrain I don't see how your army doesn't get shot up. You could try putting your front raiders sideways so they cover more vehicles and hope they take the brunt of the long fang shots, but effectively your going up againist a gunline army with no motivation to move with an army of paper airplanes with no cover its gonna be ugly when they go first.

2) You should to try and talk to your TO about more mission types. If your running 5-6 troops in skimmers in most of your lists you aren't tailoring to hold objectives because its effectively an all comers list. Where as IMO that wolf player is tailoring to annihilation missions by having 3 min troops choices because he isn't planning on holding objectives.

[Tordeck]

to save points that are being wasted remove the DL from the large warrior unit and give it a SC instead (-15) also there is no need for Sybarites or blast pistols in the venom squads (-25x3=75) there 90 points saved.

use those points to get 2 more grots and FF/NS on the RZJ

[Tokunator]

Saying that you are tailoring your army to win 2 out of 3 possible missions is ridiculous, especially if the Wolf guy manifestly has done the same for Annihilation. Obviously the guys in your environment are still stuck in a 4th Ed mentality of Victory Points being the be-all and end-all. Being able to claim objectives is just good army-building in 5th Ed, not an attempt at tailoring.

Unfortunately, playing Dark Eldar in such an environment will be rather difficult, as it completely neuters your mobility.

[Kevlar]

His list doesn't have much in the way of long range fire power or armor. I'd pop the razors first, then concentrate on the long fangs. Just avoid the rest, they can only move and shoot 12" and your vehicles can move that far and still shoot.