Empire Detachments

[vinush]

Ok guys, before I start I just want to get this out of the way. I am not complaining about the rumoured new rules for the Empire detachments, I am actually looking forward to the new army rules and can't wait for the release.

I just wanted to get opinions on the rumoured change to the detachments rules.

The currently held belief is that the detachments gain the special rules of their parent unit, can't be targeted by the enemy unless they are closer than the parent unit and the cost of them comes from the same section as the parent unit (e.g. taken with a core unit they come out of core, special they come out of special). The problem some people have with this is that they feel it's too much of a red pen solution to the problem that was the old rules.

Now I think this is a good idea, and has obviously been costed with the troops by the increased points of state troops.

A while back I had suggested a few ways they could make the detachments rules better, and they were as follows:

- Make detachment models free based on the number of models you take in the parent unit (you get 1 model in the detachment for every two you take in the parent unit)

- Allow parents to use the supporting charge/fire and counter charge rules that detachments get (why would the Imperial army only train those in the detachments to countercharge or supporting fire or charge and not the members of the parent units?)

- Make it so that the enemy can only charge parent units unless the detachment is further forward than the parent unit. (Looks like this was kind of picked up)

So, do people think the new rules are good, or would they prefer one of my variants?

THE \/ince

[Gaargod]

- Make detachment models free based on the number of models you take in the parent unit (you get 1 model in the detachment for every two you take in the parent unit)

See that's the most problematical one. You effectively would have to increase the cost of everything that can take detachments by 1.5x - which is even further complicated by the fact not everything is equal. Say spearmen = 5pts, and handgunners = 10 pts. If I buy 2 spearmen, I would get 1 handgunner free - effectively, buy one point, get one free.

I can't think of anyway to balance that problem. The normal method of buy what you want, and pay for it, is far, far easier.

[Spiney Norman]

See that's the most problematical one. You effectively would have to increase the cost of everything that can take detachments by 1.5x - which is even further complicated by the fact not everything is equal. Say spearmen = 5pts, and handgunners = 10 pts. If I buy 2 spearmen, I would get 1 handgunner free - effectively, buy one point, get one free.

I can't think of anyway to balance that problem. The normal method of buy what you want, and pay for it, is far, far easier.

Actually its worse than that, it completely illiminates choice from the empire core section. At the moment you get to choose which troops you buy to add to a detachment, how many of them (within certain limits) and crucially you have the choice NOT to use the detachments system at all. Basically forcing people to buy detachments by adding their cost to the cost of the parent unit would infuriate a lot of people I think, plus it would be a very clunky way to build an army

[GodlessM]

Yes, but the thing is, why wouldn't you want to use detachments with the rumoured new rules? I mean, aside from Knight all of the other available Core choices can be taken as detachments, so given the choice between having the unit as a regular unit or an unassailable detachment, which would you pick?

[CantRushThis]

Just to clarify, you can't charge the detachment unless the parent unit leaves the usual distance, but it can be targeted regularly in ranged combat?
Otherwise shooting detachments would be quite... powerful

[vinush]

I'm not sure. The original suggestion was can't be targeted by your enemy unless they are the closest to the models(s) targeting them.

THE \/ince

[CantRushThis]

I'm not sure. The original suggestion was can't be targeted by your enemy unless they are the closest to the models(s) targeting them.

THE \/ince

Yeah, that's what perplexed me as well.

[DaemonReign]

Vinush,

I'm sure you saw my posts on this issue in the Empire rumours thread, so I guess you know we're I'll be taking this:

The rumoured ability of Detachments being able to 'copy' the Special Rules of any joined unit seems like a fairly 'ok' edit to them. Things like Stubborn from Greatswords (or being Steadfast if the parent unit is sufficiently deep) makes sense and would represent a good 'buff' to Detachments. In my opinion.

The whole idea, however, of the enemy not being able to charge the Detachment unless the parent unit is closer is just down right horrible. After an entire edition of 'Siren Songs' I actually find it baffling that anyone would argue in support of such a hamfisted rule. As I stated in the Empire Rumoures thread, it's not the power that bothers me, but the 'asethethic' and philosophy behind it.
Last thing I heard in the Empire Rumours thread this issue still seems a whole lot less substantiated compared to the 'copying of special rules', so at present I'm still crossing my fingers it's just a rumour-ghost.
Because gosh darn it, I'm not a friend of making "house rules", but this one I would have a hard time accepting.

Now, getting Detachment-troops cheaper is something I could fully support. Perhaps not in the way you describe it in your opening post - that seems a little excessive - but I wouldn't throw a fit if models bought for a Detachment were (say) 1-2pts cheaper than their 'normal cost'. Or something like that.

As for making the "counter charge" system viable, letting the "parent unit" perform the same kind of counter-charges that the Detachments can make is another 'solution' that I could definately sign off on. In fact, that's what I will suggest as a HouseRule in case this 'You must Charge the Parent Unit crap turns out to be true.

Those would be my two cents on this issue.

[Petey]

Actually, I really like the idea that detachments share special rules with their parent unit. They are comrades in arms and working together, the warrior priests and captains would lead them in the same way as the parent unit, and they would share the command structure.

I m not sure about the other rule where they can't be charged if they aren't the closest, I think we need more information before judging that one.

[jtrowell]

According to some posts in the rumour thread, it might be that only *some* special rules can be shared, probably only the psychology rules (stubborn, stupid, ItP, ...probably also the "Hold the line" new rule from captains and generals) and the effect from the blessings of the warrior-priests.

This seems already very good, allowing for stubborn detachment (when using a greatsword unit as main, at the cost of making the detachment count as special, and it might maybe work with a stuybborn character with the crown), but also to have a blessing affect several units at once (blessings are supposed to be better, like "reroll to wound in combat" or the like)

About the charging restriction, note that in older editions, there was no "Look out sir !" for characters but they were instead protected from being targetted in a similar way unless they were closest to you that any other unit, representing the fact that a lone character/commander is hard to identify and target in the fog of war (note that characters that were big targets like a lord on dragon were of course not concerned by this rule)

In the same way, this just imply that the main unit and its detachments just advance as they were trained to do with countless drills, making the parent unit "true" formation one that cover the detachment in a way that the turn based simulation that is the game is not able to represent better, the same way that you won't find an unit that take a square formation to protect its flank, but that it might be just what happens when you just got charged in the "flank" and hold before changing orientation towards the flanking unit.

[T10]

Isn't the Empire army book already sent to the printers?

I guess this thread is a good for letting people excercise their creativity, but surely it is too late to suggest new rules, and too early to complain about them?

Oh, to answer the OP: I guess I'll be using the rules in the new army book instead of your suggestions. It seems GW is setting some sort of a standard here.

[vinush]

It's more an exercise in "what ifs and could have beens" than anything else.

THE \/ince

[Grit]

Some of it sounds good,like that they can have the special rules of there parent unit,but can get kinda silly also. If a unit has the Flaming banner does the detachment get it also?

Like the idea of not being able to charge the Detachment as,using them made your battle weaker because of the easy kill,then behind you.

The idea of the parent unit being able to counter charge seems a little silly really,they train to use smaller units to do this,can't imagine it would be easy for a large body of men to react that quickly.

[Not-not-kenny]

I think the easiest way to make detachments viable again would be not to increase the points of regular state troops and then give them other/special rules, but simply keep them as they were, but make them count towards minimum core. Or is that still not enough?

[vinush]

As was pointed out in the rumour thread, the points increase in empire troops will be to pay for the 8th edition rule book benefits, such as stepping up, fighting in two ranks, etc. and not to compensate for the changes to detachments.

[Reiko321]

Shield Spearman x 50 w/ FC & Std of Discipline
Detachment of Swordsman x20
Detachment of Swordsman x20

Fills out core perfectly in a 2500pt game

Granted Empire parent units will become 'mini stars' with the pile of characters that will be needed for them but with special abilities passing on I foresee a trend of big units with detachments ranging from 15-30.

Add a warrior priest to give the all three hatred. Add a witch hunter to give them fear/terror resistance. Add a captain or general to let them make break tests like lizards. Random wizard/priest/wizardmobile buffs to add to the combat killey-ness.

Put the detachments 1" back and counter charge to lock up the enemy and hold on until a steamtank or demigryph unit can finish the job.

Overall I believe that detachments will become commonplace again (as in the past book noone ran them around here.)

[m1acca1551]

Shield Spearman x 50 w/ FC & Std of Discipline
Detachment of Swordsman x20
Detachment of Swordsman x20

Fills out core perfectly in a 2500pt game

Granted Empire parent units will become 'mini stars' with the pile of characters that will be needed for them but with special abilities passing on I foresee a trend of big units with detachments ranging from 15-30.

Add a warrior priest to give the all three hatred. Add a witch hunter to give them fear/terror resistance. Add a captain or general to let them make break tests like lizards. Random wizard/priest/wizardmobile buffs to add to the combat killey-ness.

Put the detachments 1" back and counter charge to lock up the enemy and hold on until a steamtank or demigryph unit can finish the job.

Overall I believe that detachments will become commonplace again (as in the past book noone ran them around here.)

Doubt it i'm afraid to say... empire state troops dont have the survivability of other deathstar units such as chosen, or the ward saves of phoenix guard. A dedicated round of heavy magic plus shooting with template weapons will see this unit ripped to shreds.

I forsee smaller units allowing for tactical flexibility buffed by priests and witch hunters, with a solid horde with bsb to anchor the line. WIth all the buffs provided by prayers our state troops are ging to become almost impossible to shift, a level 1 beasts to cast signature spell will make halberds horrendously good

[Yowzo]

Doubt it i'm afraid to say... empire state troops dont have the survivability of other deathstar units such as chosen, or the ward saves of phoenix guard. A dedicated round of heavy magic plus shooting with template weapons will see this unit ripped to shreds.

That's why they're cheaper.

I see the idea of big blocks of halberdiers supported by detachments and led by captains as incredibly fluffy, so for me that's perfect (and it's pretty much the way I played before: infantry-heavy with support rather than gunline+Stank).

[Commodus Leitdorf]

What worries me is some I heard on Warhammer-Empire.com. The cost of the detachment counts towards the cost of the unit itself including for purposes of Victory Points.

So say I take a unit fo 50 halberdiers and a detachment of 5 spearmen and then hide that 5 man detachment behind a piece of terrain and send the halberds off to fight. Now lets say that the halberds are wiped out but that detachment is still alive....well guess what? You didn't finish off the whole unit as the detachment counts toward it so no VP's for you.

and that seems silly goosey to me (and I hope it not true).

[theshoveller]

In practice, wouldn't the detachment cease to be part of the parent unit once you'd moved more than 3" away from them?