Empire Detachments

[Commodus Leitdorf]

The old book that's how it worked, the detachment was seperate both rules wise AND points wise. Now detachments are bought as unit upgrades and although rules wise that is true (a unit 3'' away from the parents does not benefit from detachment rules) but for the purposes of points and VP it's still part of the parent as is my understanding of it.

again, this is just what I heard off the site and I would like to get it confirmed one way or the other.

[Duke Donald]

Has it been confirmed that one could not charge a detachment unless it was closer than the parent unit? Could anyone who has the book confirm whether this is true or not ? It would be very powerful but it strikes me as a really wacky rule.

[The bearded one]

That was a weakness of the old detachment rule, where an enemy could splatterify the detachment and get away with it. It would make the increased pointcost of all the statetroops a bit understandable.. if you use the detachment rules, anyway.

[stainawarjar]

Has it been confirmed that one could not charge a detachment unless it was closer than the parent unit? Could anyone who has the book confirm whether this is true or not ? It would be very powerful but it strikes me as a really wacky rule.

I can confirm that is NOT true.

[vinush]

A fanatic purchased as a unit upgrade for night goblins will deny the victory points for the whole unit if not destroyed after being hurled out, so a detachment for empire would presumably be the same.

I would personally punch myself if I used that tactic though.

[Commodus Leitdorf]

Has it been confirmed that one could not charge a detachment unless it was closer than the parent unit? Could anyone who has the book confirm whether this is true or not ? It would be very powerful but it strikes me as a really wacky rule.

Well yes/no. I mean during 7th I, and a lot of Empire players, never really got alot of flank charges as people would just charge the detachment. That lead to exploiting the redirection rule with archers (as one option). The second one that came about was the 9 man swordsmen detachment (3x3) tucked away between two blocks. The space was too small to get into so opponents couldn't charge the detachments.

In this editon redirection doesn't work all that well (what with the ability to redirect the charge) So I'm not against the rule especially once you look at the history about how it came about.

[RanaldLoec]

Forget hordes if your looking for anvil units then a 5 wide bus is a far better choice.

1) It limits the number of troops in base to base with limits the attacks which minimises the casualties the unit takes meaning it will be steadfast for longer.

2) Against units of elite elves, warriors of chaos, lizardmen, ghouls, ogres, etc even a large unit of 60 plus Swordsmen in a horde will quickly loose steadfast or disappear into a cloud of bright clothing and blood. Halberdiers and spearmen will die even quicker.

3) Hordes are best for harder hitting high leadership, stubborn or unbreakable units like flaggelants or Greatswords. As it allows them to maximize their damage out put with out having to worry about combat resolution and steadfast.

[Commodus Leitdorf]

A fanatic purchased as a unit upgrade for night goblins will deny the victory points for the whole unit if not destroyed after being hurled out, so a detachment for empire would presumably be the same.

I would personally punch myself if I used that tactic though.

True, but it also depends on how the rule is worded in the detachment rule. I was just wondering if anyone else had heard this.

[vinush]

Random thought: Do you think you should be able to take a detachment of up to the same size as the parent unit? Why or why not?

THE \/ince

[theunwantedbeing]

A fanatic purchased as a unit upgrade for night goblins will deny the victory points for the whole unit if not destroyed after being hurled out, so a detachment for empire would presumably be the same.

I would personally punch myself if I used that tactic though.

I'm pretty sure that isn't how they work.

[Duke Donald]

Stainawarjar, thanks for the prompt confirmation. That was my impression and I feel that some of the earlier discussions on the rumour thread were confusing as some assumed the rule had make it into the book.

That largely solves the problem whether it would have been a good rule. However, it raises the issue how to use detachments effectively. As detachments counter-charges now follow the standard arc rules, setting up counter-charges will be extremely tricky. It seems to me that combat detachments may be even worse off than before.

[Duke Donald]

@ Commodus Leitdorf

I appreciate why having to charge the parent unit would have made detachments valuable again in the 8th environment. My problem with it would have been that if would have felt really artificial. Very generally, I'm not fond of rules that impose arbitrary limitations on the opponent's options.

[Commodus Leitdorf]

@ Commodus Leitdorf

I appreciate why having to charge the parent unit would have made detachments valuable again in the 8th environment. My problem with it would have been that if would have felt really artificial. Very generally, I'm not fond of rules that impose arbitrary limitations on the opponent's options.

Oh I don't disagree, I was just showing the history of how such a rule would come about. A desperate attempt to get people to charge our parent so we can use the rule we now pay for!

[PurpleSun]

True, but it also depends on how the rule is worded in the detachment rule. I was just wondering if anyone else had heard this.

Looking at the language for detachments right now, and it says nothing about victory points.

Also, the biggest downside is that the counter charge no longer auto hits the flank. This makes the counter charge lame. Best case scenario you get a corner to corner counter charge that washes your opponents +1 CR for charging.

[The bearded one]

That's true. Unless your detachment is very wide or far enough forward, the majority of your detachment will be caught in the front arc of the enemy charging unit.

[DaemonReign]

Also, the biggest downside is that the counter charge no longer auto hits the flank. This makes the counter charge lame. Best case scenario you get a corner to corner counter charge that washes your opponents +1 CR for charging.

No.

You will now be forced to position your detachment(s) in an angle pointing inward across the front-arc of the parent unit.
After that you will have two options:
1 - The first one is a little tricky, and more general, in the sense that you have to deploy/play "the rest of the game" in a way that makes your opponant want to charge your parent unit despite the obvious Counter Charge to the flank. What do you have going on outside of the bubble discussed here (i.e. that one unit and its detachments)? Perhaps you have a Stank and whatever else positioned so that your opponant actually thinks its a better choice to just take the detachment in the flank. The possibilities are endless. The fact that it presents both players with a challange is a Good Thing.
2 - Rememer that Detachments copy the Special Rule of the Parent unit. Take two 30 model detachments to a unit of Great Swords and they will be Stubborn. Deploy them 5 wide and very, very few units in the game can have any hope of wiping them out in one turn of combat. Hence, should anyone decide to charge your detachment you will pretty much be guaranteed to hit them in the flank with your GreatSword Horde instead. So chin up.. Detachments are going to be a whole lot better than before.

Just as with Flagelants, all you need is twice as many models really.

[Haravikk]

I think that the new detachment rules sound fine; I'm mostly concerned by the idea that you won't be able to target them if the parent is closer, as it seems unnecessary when we already have perfectly adequate targeting rules, what exactly in the training of state troops could make them able to cease to be visible to enemies shooting at them? I would prefer them to get a Soft Cover/Hard Cover bonus depending on their position, since I imagine them moving a lot more freely, but that would only make them harder to hit, not impossible.

Regarding the idea of allowing parent units to counter-charge; the point of detachments is that they're small, light units intended to support the bigger parent units, so they have the flexibility to make a supporting charge at a moment's notice. A mainstay infantry unit is too cumbersome to make manoeuvres like that. It's worth remembering also that Elves and Dwarfs both have significant martial prowess and far more training than any Empire regiment, yet their units can't counter charge automatically; the difference with Empire detachments is that they're small units organised almost specifically for that purpose, if any unit could be trained to charge in to help others then it would be a rule available to a bunch of other armies as well.

I dunno; I think the rumoured changes to detachments sound fine, it really depends what kind of detachments are available until Special and Rare, but I doubt it's really that big of a deal so long as they're still limited in size. Detachments do make it very easy for Empire players to ensure they have more than one unit in a close combat, which is a big key to success in 8th, but so long as they're not costed stupidly then I think this shouldn't be much of a problem.

I play Dwarfs with a mix of big anvil units and smaller hammers (still usually a little bigger than detachments though) and it's a fun play-style, but the hammers really take a beating if things don't go smoothly, meanwhile it's a lot easier to do with an Empire army.

[PurpleSun]

I think that the new detachment rules sound fine; I'm mostly concerned by the idea that you won't be able to target them if the parent is closer, as it seems unnecessary when we already have perfectly adequate targeting rules, what exactly in the training of state troops could make them able to cease to be visible to enemies shooting at them? I would prefer them to get a Soft Cover/Hard Cover bonus depending on their position, since I imagine them moving a lot more freely, but that would only make them harder to hit, not impossible.

This was a rumor that was not true. There is no rule in the new book saying that you have to target the parent unit. You can charge what ever you want to.

[Col. Tartleton]

I feel like the thing where you use blocks of parent units to match up with the enemy and use set back detachments is a good idea.

Skaven Clanrat Spear Blocks
S-S-S-S-S--------S-S-S-S-S
S-S-S-S-S--------S-S-S-S-S
S-S-S-S-S--------S-S-S-S-S
S-S-S-S-S--------S-S-S-S-S
S-S-S-S-S--------S-S-S-S-S
S-S-S-S-S--------S-S-S-S-S
|||||||||||--------|||||||||||
H-H-H-H-H--------H-H-H-H-H
H-H-H-H-H-G-G-G-H-H-H-H-H
H-H-H-H-H-G-G-G-H-H-H-H-H
H-H-H-H-H-G-G-G-H-H-H-H-H

Imperial Halberds and Greatswords

You catch them like that and then you spring the Greatswords out to charge in and catch them in the flanks. That's vaguely how Swordmen and Greatswords fought since we can't put them inside of a Pike Block and have them sally out through the pikes walls or hide in ditches or behind hills and ambush marching pikes . I think that Hordes should be able to mix units, but that's just me.

[PurpleSun]

No.

You will now be forced to position your detachment(s) in an angle pointing inward across the front-arc of the parent unit.
After that you will have two options:
1 - The first one is a little tricky, and more general, in the sense that you have to deploy/play "the rest of the game" in a way that makes your opponant want to charge your parent unit despite the obvious Counter Charge to the flank. What do you have going on outside of the bubble discussed here (i.e. that one unit and its detachments)? Perhaps you have a Stank and whatever else positioned so that your opponant actually thinks its a better choice to just take the detachment in the flank. The possibilities are endless. The fact that it presents both players with a challange is a Good Thing.
2 - Rememer that Detachments copy the Special Rule of the Parent unit. Take two 30 model detachments to a unit of Great Swords and they will be Stubborn. Deploy them 5 wide and very, very few units in the game can have any hope of wiping them out in one turn of combat. Hence, should anyone decide to charge your detachment you will pretty much be guaranteed to hit them in the flank with your GreatSword Horde instead. So chin up.. Detachments are going to be a whole lot better than before.

Just as with Flagelants, all you need is twice as many models really.

Yes.

Under the previous book, it was wise to keep the detachment 6" back from the front corner of the parent unit. That way they could not fail their counter charge, but were far enough back not to be charged by themselves. Now, you are suggesting to keep the attachments up slightly ahead of the parent unit, and politely encourage your opponent to charge the parent unit which is stronger and farther away. That is silliness. Contrariness at its best.