Army Wide Rule for Chaos Space Marines

[Son of Sanguinius]

Fellow nerds, I request your assistance in developing an army-wide rule for Chaos Space Marines. I have several ideas (your opinions of which I would love to have) and I am very eager to hear any thoughts on how you would do it.

The purpose of this rule is, at its most basic, to represent the Black Legion and other "middle-ground" Chaos Space Marine warbands. This rule would then be replaced by other rules for other notable forces, in a similar fashion to what happens in the Space Marine codex, or by Marks of Chaos, as I'm of the opinion that Marks should make a Marine better at something different, not better all around (which translates to remaining the same cost but having a slightly different application).

The idea I've been working with is Death to the False Emperor! which basically gives all applicable units Counter-Attack and Stubborn as ways of encouraging close range fighting and highlighting the ruthless (often psychotic) determination that the Black Legion has regarding vengeance.

Anyway, hit me with your thoughts and please explain your opinions.

[Gaargod]

Interesting. But it's rather strong, don't you think? Counter-attack, sure - I can see that representing the viciousness of Black Legion and even their higher training, and obviously contrasts to the Furious Charge etc, which could be given to more Khornate warbands.

But Stubborn? Black Legion want their vengeance, I'll agree - but Stubborn is sticking around long past when it's sensible to leave (for the actual man in the moment - for the general, staying put is often very desirable!). Which the Black Legion... don't. Hence Abaddon has taken 13 Black Crusades to get to where he is now, rather than just going out in a blaze of glory in one. Even if you're going to argue that they are tenacious, they're still not Stubborn tenacious to me - that implies truly unmovable troops. Those who have either an overwhelming duty to stay or are just too damn proud to go anywhere, and screw the consequences. Or that they'll be shot if they try it (a la Commissar).

And a plain rules consideration - counter-attack and stubborn together is very, very strong. The other marks/whatever would have to be very impressive to match - just furious charge wouldn't do it, for example.

[Son of Sanguinius]

True, it is strong. Stronger than ATSKNF and Combat Tactics and Combat Squads? I doubt it, but it's certainly possible.

Do you have any thoughts on a replacement for Stubborn?

[Son of Sanguinius]

Another idea I had was Stubborn (or some other rule to show they are still immune to fear but not tactically blind) and Preferred Enemy (Imperials) which would include Imperial Guard, Space Marines (of all types), and Inquisition factions. Thoughts?

[Askari]

The thing with that Preferred Enemy is that against, say Eldar, you're paying points for an ability which is of no use. But if it's "free" then Chaos Marines are too cheap when fighting Imperials. It's difficult to balance - on the odd unit it's alright, but army wide it provides a balancing challenge.

I'll advocate what I've always advocated (in my own Codex, for example). That the Mark of Chaos Undivided gives your army a single USR. The entire army must pick the same USR, stated in the army list before the game begins, but they can select from a great variety such as Stubborn (Word Bearers), Stealth/Infiltrate (Alpha Legion), Tank Hunters (Iron Warriors) etc.

[Son of Sanguinius]

Very good point, Askari. That has been the primary opposition to Preferred Enemy, despite its thematic applicability.

Concerning Chaos Undivided, I want to allow players the freedom to have Chaos Space Marines that are not enthralled Chaos. I know that we can pretend that the models aren't so inclined, but the same argument could be made for all of the other marks as well.

Interestingly enough, you raised perfectly good suggestions for the Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors, but really what I'm after is the Black Legion. What rule, along those lines, would you suggest for Abaddon's cohort?

[Askari]

Yeah, there's a reason I omitted a rule for the Black Legion... I don't have a clue Abaddon himself could make Chosen Troops (and I'd recombine the Chosen and Terminator entries so you can have mixed units too). But as a generic Black Legion army? Erm...

[Charistoph]

Chaos having Preferred Enemy would work for "free" if they also granted the same to who they have it against. But that usually defeats the purpose of the rule.

Incoporating the Icon of Chaos Glory's affect natively would be the best way to be their "ATSKNF".

[de Selby]

Chaos having Preferred Enemy would work for "free" if they also granted the same to who they have it against. But that usually defeats the purpose of the rule.

I've always wanted GW to take this approach. Same with 'hatred'. I don't really believe that hating someone makes you better at fighting them, just more willing to fight them even at the cost of personal danger. So I'd like it if the rule was symmetric and just led to bloodier combats overall, in a thematically appropriate way. Would make it easier to balance too.

On topic, I quite like the 'eye of the gods' idea from WFB and I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of implementation for 40k.

[Col. Tartleton]

My ideas:

Blackguards: Chaos Space Marines may always choose to fail any Leadership or Morale Tests.
Sons of Horus: Slain enemy HQs are worth double their Victory or Kill Points. If they survive, the enemy receives the doubled Victory or Kill Points instead.

This can tie into an Eye of the Gods system as suggested above. But the Sons of Horus/Black Legion always struck me as glory seekers. They want to personally kill enemy leaders. Beyond Horus's Sever the Head and all that. They're gung ho to slaughter anyone important and reap the rewards such an act merits.

"Blackguards" could be replaced with an appropriate psychology rule for each legion. Standard Chaos Marines IMO are quick to leg it when things get bad in classic evil villain style. Space Marines fight to the last for an inch of ground. CSM grab the loot and book it far far away. Khorne types would be "Bloodhounds" and go after the enemy with reckless abandon. Thousand Sons would be "Cautious" and make their decisions carefully.

[yabbadabba]

Hmm, maybe one army wide rule could be that Chaos players can always designate one non-scoring, non-HQ unit, as a scoring unit. That is now universally applicable.

Also, maybe designated units may always try and rally, no matter what size they are?

[xxRavenxx]

I like yabbas idea of always being able to rally. I think that would be a good army-wide rule, as its not common in other armies.

I'd throw a second interesting thing on there to round it up and be done. My thought would be:

Stubborn at LD 6. So they always have some chance of not breaking in combat, or, flatten the reroll LD icons onto units in general.

At current points a chaos marine with reroll LD and always rally thrown on is still probably not as good as a spacewolf...

[Son of Sanguinius]

Alright, now we're cookin'.

Mightiest of the Fallen: A unit with this rule ignores the restrictions on testing to regroup, with the exception of unit coherency. Furthermore, a unit with this rule can never have its Leadership reduced lower than the lowest normal Leadership value in the unit.

This functions as an army-wide rule, a CSM alternative to ATSKNF that highlights the independence and self-serving attitudes of many Chaos Space Marines who have lost their dedication to duty. On the tabletop, an example of this would be a CSM squad (Leadership 8) joined by a Chaos Lord (non-Fearless, Leadership 10). Without modifiers, the unit can test on the Lord's Leadership. But let's say the unit loses a combat by 3. They would then take the subsequent Morale check on Leadership 8. So it's Stubborn that allows a small drop off for different units.

Death to the False Emperor!: A unit with this rule benefits from the Counter-Attack and confers an additional Kill Point to its controller when it destroys an enemy HQ unit.

This is the Black Legion (or generic CSM) rule. Highlights their aggressiveness and their "go for the throat" mentality. This will also be the rule replaced by either a system or characters to allow for the flavoring of other Legions.

Thoughts? I understand this combination will be potent, but ask yourself if it's more or less powerful than ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, and Combat Squads or ATSKNF, Counter-Attack, and Acute Senses, or ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, The Red Thirst, and Descent of Angels. I want to bring CSM back into a relative equivalent with their Space Marine counterparts on a basic level.

[Askari]

I think that Leadership ability is a bit off, as it essentially punishes you for taking Aspiring Champions or Chaos Lords in units. It would be better if it simply capped the maximum modifier Chaos Marines can have to -2 or -3. Then at least it's still beneficial to have a higher Leadership character in a unit.

[yabbadabba]

I'm just thinking SoS that its a shame that Vet Sergeants have been dropped as an upgrade, or that counter attack rule working against units with upgraded squad leaders or characters would then work really thematically with the kill point rule.

I still think that the CSM equivalent to Combat Squads should be something to do with the FoC, and should reflect the CSMs potentially greater ability to use less for greater effect. After all to all intents and purposes they are more of a "dying race" than the Eldar, so often have less resources to play with.

I'd also maybe go "Ancient Hatreds" as a freebie. This can work vs Imperialist Marines, and then the Old Chaos Rivalries. It confers Preferred Enemy on both sides. So this means any CSM army can call for Ancient Hatreds vs any Imperial Space Marine Army, then a CSM army lead bya general with the MoK can call it vs an army with a general with MoS, MoN vs MoT. Black Legion hates everyone so gets it vs any CSM or SM army ;-)

I'd also try sacred numbers for a minor buff. Any unit with the Army General's God's sacred number gets a single dice reroll in the game. It cannot reroll a reroll etc. Normal vehicles can't get it but daemonically possessed vehicles get it automatically if they have the same mark. So a little buff, nothing serious but might encourage thematic play.

Anyway, not all of these put throwing some ideas up.

[theDarkGeneral]

Interesting discussion...

[Son of Sanguinius]

I beseech you to contribute, DarkGeneral. Especially in light of the scents and smoke signals you find on the rumor-winds, your input would be most appreciated.

[Son of Sanguinius]

Alright, another version.

Mightiest of the Fallen
Chaos Space Marines are as immune to fear as their loyalist counterparts and have replaced their dedicated to duty with a ruthless thirst for vengeance.
A unit with this rule ignores restrictions on testing to regroup, except for unit coherency. When a unit with this rule regroups, it does not count as having moved in that Movement phase and may move normally.

We Have Returned
Though the progeny of Horus have renounced their infamous forebear and sworn allegiance to Warmaster Abaddon, they have not forgotten the Arch-Traitor's favored and proven tactic - using ruthless aggression to cut tear the throats out of their enemies.
A unit with this rule has the Counter-Attack and Preferred Enemy (HQ units) special rules.

[Askari]

Preferred Enemy (HQ choices).

I like that.

[Warmaster_John]

Mightiest of the Fallen
Chaos Space Marines are as immune to fear as their loyalist counterparts and have replaced their dedicated to duty with a ruthless thirst for vengeance.
A unit with this rule ignores restrictions on testing to regroup, except for unit coherency. When a unit with this rule regroups, it does not count as having moved in that Movement phase and may move normally.

I would only disregard the unit size resistriction, as even Loyalist can still be run off the table by the "no enemy within 6 inches" rule. Other than that, I like this rule. Not sure the movement bit is needed, but its nice. To digress, I've always felt the +1 Leadership all CSM get compared to loyalist Marines was a good balance to ATSKNF, especially when coupled with a Moral check re-roll (via a Icon or, even better, a Mark).

We Have Returned
Though the progeny of Horus have renounced their infamous forebear and sworn allegiance to Warmaster Abaddon, they have not forgotten the Arch-Traitor's favored and proven tactic - using ruthless aggression to cut tear the throats out of their enemies.
A unit with this rule has the Counter-Attack and Preferred Enemy (HQ units) special rules.

I think Counter Attack is enough, personally, but I would change the preferred enemy to (Characters) if the intent is to focus on enemy "heroes", as there are a number of infantry units now that are HQ.

Just my thoughts. Hope I don't kill this thread like every other one I reply to