Army Wide Rule for Chaos Space Marines

[Son of Sanguinius]

Thanks for the reply, Warmaster, and no worries about thread death here.

To your first point, I agree, but I need a way to differentiate from ATSKNF. I want the rules similar and equivalent, but not equal.

To your second point, I don't want to do (Characters) because you can't direct attacks against sergeants and the like, so part of the rule would be useless and even if you could it would go against the point of the rule thematically. I have (HQ units) because the death of an infantry unit in a leadership role, such as a Company Command Squad or an SM Honor Guard Squad would be thematically and mechanically important.

[Orthodox]

This is disappointing. I have always had in mind a thread called "actually, you only think you liked traits/doctrines." It's just tiresome to convince people of things they should already know. Plus, there are prolific posters like SoS and Steiner and MvS who will probably figure this out eventually anyway.

Yeah, alright, army-wide customizing rules are terrible, veteran skills are terrible. A unit with lascannons shoots at tanks no matter what buffs it does or doesn't have. Armies or units with tacked-on USRs play the same as units that don't have them; even if they are slightly better at one task or another, the choices of where to move models and what to shoot at are identical. Materially, optional special rules have no effect, besides the terrible problems of WYSIWYG. If there has been no other improvement, at least there are no longer points involved in purchase.

The only army to have traits or vet skills inflicted more than once is marines, so they can demonstrate an example. Raven guard, in some official rules and some fandexes, can take army-wide, invisible fleet, infiltrate, stealth adepts or other special rules. In IA they got a reserves bonus for scouts. Compare this to taking an alternate type of tactical squad. It takes less than half a codex page to show an alternate tactical squad that has a locator beacon and may upgrade some number of its bolters to combi-weapons, yet always exists as two separate combat squads of five and has no access to heavy Razorback transport. Its use subject to no conditions like choosing a character or chapter, that unit remakes an army into raven guards' characteristic commando tactics and deep striking in ways that no bolt-on rule can never.

The entire Black Templars chapter really resides in crusader squads and in the Emperor's Champion. A player might choose a single special unit from among raven guard tactical squads, templar crusader squads, geneseed abominations, or veteran bikers with lances and a free assault-phase move. They allow clear and effective WYSIWYG and avoid all complications of Vulkan lists that include ninemelta-flamer Land Speeders Tornado. Traits will eventually have run their course, and nobody should imagine that just because they have been the only method of modifying an army within its own codex that it is the best, or even a slightly good method.

I arrived at this indignant opinion by experiment and exploration. You should totally keep going and finding new solutions. When I indulged in legion-tactics, I said that the chaos legions are characterized by their own forms of brutality, so they always count as scoring an additional wound for purposes of calculating the assault result, however they are self-serving and subject to the whims of their patrons, so if they do not win combat outright, they immediately lose that bonus and count as scoring one fewer wounds than they did, to the detriment of their leadership test or no retreat! saves. Legion variants include Iron Warriors' heavy weapons ignoring cover saves, since USRs seem ineffectively targeted.

Chapter tactics are dependent on hq, and chaos marines might be similar: a lord in terminator armor probably has a more poweful warband and should benefit from any Black Legion benefits to scoring, and Warsmiths naturally have servo-arms. Dark Apostles carry an accursed crozius, and probably allows squads to carry locator-beacon chaos icons, which can't be as universal as official codexes allows. Alpha Legion, however, do not depend on single leaders this way. Would they just be armies including infiltrating chosen, and not affected by an overweening HQ? They are more independent than other legions and do not need the recruited grunt marines that other legions use as troops, so sure, they might mostly be chosen-grade.

This is the thing. Setting aside the four legions whose signature cult units obviate the need for legion-tactics, the army is better off with such a system. You might say that a non-rubric tzeentch army is indicated by this condition or character, and affords normal units some ability, like an eldrad-style divination. Or, you can say only that units of chosen with such and such equipment may also be sorcerors, and ps tzeentchian armies often include sorcerors. At any rate, army-wide rules are totally inside a worn-out box, and like copying another artist's mistakes while adding your own, fandex traits are not only out-moded but even more inadequate than the originals.

Just make the armies work, instead of trait-hacking. I recommend making bolter-shooting better, since plague marines and rubrics will always be unfluffy or rubbish while their normal tactical-squad-level offense is so outpaced by their points-intense resilience.

[Son of Sanguinius]

Many thanks for your response, Orthodox.

I definitely empathize with some of the things you said. In essence, what I'm attempting to do here is add flavor, but that can only be done with taste and balance after the skeleton and meat of the codex is strong. I have a basic structure of a codex finished that I believe can stand on its own, competitively, without any of these rules (or indeed, even the Marks), but that is for another thread.

If it means anything to you, I have no intention of abandoning the basics and I'm certainly not out to make a broken codex. This rule system is not intended to overbalance things, as the bonuses conveyed will not exceed those in existing books and will most certainly be accounted for by drawbacks and costs. I have considered the valid points you've raised and I've come to a different conclusion - where you seem to think that a trait system is ineffective (and forgive me if I'm misinterpreting your words), I believe it simply requires more thorough examination and input, which is why I've opened up my thought process to the small but experienced community that can be found in here in Warseer RD.

Forgive the inherent arrogance in this statement, but I do believe myself quite capable of writing a balanced and competitive codex, especially because I am not bound by GW's focus of selling models or books. That said, where I need the help is the flavor. I'm a background-first oriented guy and I know my tendention is to get carried away in that area, hence why I'm requesting assistance.

Now, considering all that, are you still disappointed? And regardless of whether or not you are, how would you attempt what I am attempting with regards to flavor?

[yabbadabba]

Alright, another version.

Mightiest of the Fallen
Chaos Space Marines are as immune to fear as their loyalist counterparts and have replaced their dedicated to duty with a ruthless thirst for vengeance.
A unit with this rule ignores restrictions on testing to regroup, except for unit coherency. When a unit with this rule regroups, it does not count as having moved in that Movement phase and may move normally.

We Have Returned
Though the progeny of Horus have renounced their infamous forebear and sworn allegiance to Warmaster Abaddon, they have not forgotten the Arch-Traitor's favored and proven tactic - using ruthless aggression to cut tear the throats out of their enemies.
A unit with this rule has the Counter-Attack and Preferred Enemy (HQ units) special rules.

I like this now, so does We Have Returned become the Combat Tactics of the CSM? If so do we now look at other options to replace WHR for non-Black Legion armies?

[Son of Sanguinius]

Wrote this up pretty quick, so I'm expecting it to be torn apart.

We Have Returned (Black Legion, generic CSM)
- Units with this rule have Counter-Attack and Preferred Enemy (HQ units).

For the Dark Gods! (Word Bearers)
- Units with this rule have Stubborn and always count as being equipped with a Chaos Icon.

We Have Come For You (Night Lords)
- Units with this rule have Night Vision and Hit & Run.

Iron Within, Iron Without (Iron Warriors)
- Units with this rule have Feel No Pain and Move Through Cover, but may never make sweeping advances or run.

We Are Legion (Alpha Legion)
- Units with this rule have Infiltrate and Stealth.


Mark of Khorne
- Units with this mark have Counter-Attack and Stubborn.

Mark of Tzeentch
- Units with this mark take all Leadership tests by rolling 3D6 and choosing which roll to apply.

Mark of Nurgle
- Units with this mark have Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful.

Mark of Slaanesh
- Units with this mark have Fleet and always count as being equipped with assault and defensive grenades.


Note that Marks will replace whatever Legion rule the units in question have.

[yabbadabba]

Good first round mate. I think Iron Warriors shouldn't have FnP, but might benefit from adapting the cover rules; either enemies never count as having offensive or defensive grenades, or always count as "Gone to Ground" in cover.

[Son of Sanguinius]

The other alternative for them that I had was stealth and tank hunters, but I can't get that description of perturabo's gene seed in Deliverance Lost out of my head.

[Askari]

Mark of Khorne should surely be Furious Charge, not Counter-attack? The Mark of Tzeentch sounds pretty rubbish considering others get Stubborn and another benefit.

I also disagree with giving Iron Warriors Feel No Pain, they're tough, but not Death Guard Plague Marine tough. I reckon just Tank Hunters is enough, possibly with Stubborn when in cover or yabbadabba's suggestions.

[Warmaster_John]

Black Legion, Nurgle, and Word Bearers look good to me.

I like Night Lords, but I'm not sure about Hit and Run. Same with Alpha Legion -- not sure if Stealth fits them.

As others have said, FnP seems too much for Iron Warriors, and taking away the ability to run seems too harsh. In my experience, Tank Hunters is too powerful a thing for Iron Warriors (though thematically acurate), and I never felt Stealth fit them thematically. Perhaps a modified FnP, where it only works on a 5+, or doesn't work vs AP 3 shots?

I agree with Askari on Khorne -- Counter Attack? That's for defenders, people who are "getting" charged. Khornate marines do the charging. Stubborn is good though, as it works better in CC than Fearless.

Again on Tzeentch I agree with Askari. I like the rule, as it will make them awesome psykers, but they need something else, especially for the non-psykers.

Slaanesh seems too weak, too. Assuming you're sticking with Noise Marines, fleet does them little good as they are short ranged shooters. And most already have frag grenades, though Def grenades are good for them. I think this one is going to be tricky. Maybe Fearless? Acute senses, to represent their "expanded" consciousness?

[Son of Sanguinius]

@Askari: The Mark of Khorne is meant to be valuable for melee units and ranged units, rather than just melee units. I hate the generic +1 A bonus the current codex has and the general emphasis of all Khorne's warriors being melee troops. Wrath and fury can just as easily be spit upon the foe from the end of a gun barrel.

The Mark of Tzeentch will, I believe, be hugely valuable. Perhaps more so than any of the others. The marked warriors will become terrifying when applying psychic powers and practically immune to morale without suffering from no retreat. Psychic powers will be a huge emphasis for Tzeentch, for me, and there will be more flexibility than simply several units of ap3 bolters and 1 bolt of change.

As for the Iron Warriors, I'll go with Tank Hunters and either stealth or defensive grenades. It's really an issue of whether you want the cover benefit in shooting or in an assault. Thoughts?

@Warmaster_John: The purpose of giving Night Lords hit and run is to encourage jump pack and bike play without directing manipulating the FOC. That said, I'm open to alternative ideas.

Tank Hunters is only overpowering against almost entirely mech armies. Once the transports are gone, the Iron Warriors are suddenly paying for a rule that has no benefit. I've playtested this one in particular and my experience tells me it really isn't broken when factored into different army styles and the length of a game. As for Stealth, it's not that the Iron Warriors are stealthy, it's that they are really good at creating and maximizing the effects of cover.

I disagree with Furious Charge to Khorne. Again, it's purpose is to make melee and ranged a little better. Counter-Attack allows melee units who already powerful on the charge to be more fearsome when they themselves are charged, and it makes your opponent think twice about charging a ranged unit. I've also play tested this one, and let me tell you that only the most dedicated assault units want to walk into Havocs with 4 melta guns or flamers, a champion with a nasty toy, counter-attack, and stubborn.

With regards to Tzeentch, see my point to Askari above, and Leadership will be a very important factor for this army. But both of you keep this point in mind until after you see my new thread so you can decide if you think it's still ineffective. Until then, please suggest alternatives that are not generic invulnerable saves.

Your points are being considered on Slaanesh. The style of army I'm trying to encourage with Slaanesh is a bunch of fast assault units supported by or anchored on Noise Marines. And hold on to your seat, because my Noise Marines are going to be one hell of a good anti-infantry unit.

[yabbadabba]

Don't go for TH on Iron Warriors.

[Son of Sanguinius]

Explain yourself, yabba. You know me better than that.

[Orthodox]

That said, where I need the help is the flavor. I'm a background-first oriented guy and I know my tendention is to get carried away in that area, hence why I'm requesting assistance.

Now, considering all that, are you still disappointed? And regardless of whether or not you are, how would you attempt what I am attempting with regards to flavor?

Background is exactly what I am talking about. I don't know why you mention balance, since the goal is to substantiate background. The problem is bolt-on special rules fail completely to substantiate background.

Here are the problems: the models don't look different from each other, and totally, crushingly importantly, the don't do anything different from each other, they take the same actions and fill the same roles. Optional USR upgrades do not have any visual effect, and they do not change the moves and decisions a unit makes. Traits allow only one thing, and that is for a player to say he's using iron warriors rules. The actual rules effects are little nudges to dice rolls would not be visible on a history-channel map of your units moving around with fat or thin arrows.

So, your chaos marine squad with counter-attack moves into mid-range and tries to stand up to to opposition until elite units arrive. Your chaos marine squad with night vision moves into mid-range and tries to stand up to to opposition until elite units arrives. Your havoc squad with counter-attack stands and shoots. Your havoc squad with night-vision stands and shoots to slightly more reliable effect. This doesn't give me, as an opponent or as a controlling player, any sense of "flavor." It's more book-keeping, sure, because I need to roll dice a little differently.

Black Legion use troops who can contest ground and are numerous enough to contest a broad area. Alpha Legion use a much more limited amount of squads with more specialized equipment than the basic mutually-supporting fire teams that black legion do. This cannot be boiled down to a vague sense that preferred enemy (hq) suits black legion and infiltrate suits alpha legion. Of course they suit those armies, but they do not make a substantive difference. The overwhelming majority of those units' abilities are still identical to each other and used for the same purposes.

If you added an appendix to the loyalist codex that allows the mixed-armor, close combat crusader squads that black templars have to be taken as troops, the entire army would change, because instead of revolving around fireteams, it would revolve around masses of chainswords with no shooting ability. Just do that, find the elite intrusion squads of the alpha legion, and say that an army including them just becomes and alpha legion army, with no change to the other units' rules. Find the sappers or bombardment teams that fight in the style of iron warriors. Why does the official codex have vindicators? It's not because it's an average unit for all the legions, used by night lords and death guard equally.

@Askari: The Mark of Khorne is meant to be valuable for melee units and ranged units, rather than just melee units. I hate the generic +1 A bonus the current codex has and the general emphasis of all Khorne's warriors being melee troops. Wrath and fury can just as easily be spit upon the foe from the end of a gun barrel.

Ok, so don't pigeon-hole them with rules. Give standard space marine squads the option of taking three heavy weapons in thirteen-strong squads.

The Mark of Tzeentch will, I believe, be hugely valuable. Perhaps more so than any of the others. The marked warriors will become terrifying when applying psychic powers and practically immune to morale without suffering from no retreat. Psychic powers will be a huge emphasis for Tzeentch, for me, and there will be more flexibility than simply several units of ap3 bolters and 1 bolt of change.

Presumably, you have some kind of marine coven unit. That's tzeentchian. A unit that has dedicated itself to sorcery doesn't need slight variations to make them more or less sorcerous, depending on what god they follow. They can't have marks, raptors can't have marks, obliterators can't have marks: they are busy doing something else, they have another master than their god, so the god does not mark them.

[Son of Sanguinius]

I cannot agree with that sentiment. Adding or subtracting a rule makes an enormous difference in play style and equipment load out. You said earlier that a unit with a lascannon is still going to shoot at tanks, which I agree with. But if a unit of Chaos Space Marines has been given Preferred Enemy (HQ), aren't you going to reconsider what you equip the unit with in the first place?

Part of what I see as the niche filled by Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is the jack-of-all trades army. You can form an assault army, a shooting army, or a mix. This applies to many of the units in those armies as well. You can make a suitable assault or ranged unit out of a tactical squad or csm squad. What special rules these units possess can completely change the scope of their potential.

What you are describing seems to apply more to an army like the Eldar, where each unit has a very specific function. Giving Fire Dragons counter attack might make them slightly more effective, but its value is negligible mechanically and awkward thematically.

Where I do agree (I think) with you is that, especially for Chaos Space Marines, eccentric or unique units can provide as much flavor as special rules. Obliterators feel like an Iron Warriors unit. Raptors (the cult version) feel like a Night Lords unit. Dark Apostles feel like a Word Bearers unit. But this simply doesn't go far enough. The purpose of these rules is to change the perspective of the army as a whole and then allow further changes of perspective based on individual taste. While I don't agree with much of the execution, GW has essentially done the same thing with Space Marines of Many Colors, and I cannot see the harm in exploring Chaos with the same intention, though maybe not to the extent of writing individual codices.

It seems that part of your concern is the inadequacy of the existing set of special rules in the BRB. It's a valid concern, in my opinion, and I apologize if I'm wrong about your view of them. My intent is to work within the system and limit unique rules as much as I can. I do this for two reasons: (1)crafting and testing said rules on a large scale is difficult and time consuming (the same can be said for a new unit, btw) on a scale that I am simply unwilling to invest in and (2) the existing set of special rules have precedent and costs in other armies with which I can judge my product against, which again makes my work easier (and more enjoyable). I'll be the first to admit it's a flawed system, but I still like it.

I'd be happy to concede the last word to you on this point - partially because I appreciate that you've presented this concern in a civil fashion, partially because the point of this thread is to work with the concept and not to defend the concept itself, and partially because I don't want you to think your opinion has fallen on deaf ears. I do my best to not appear as a contrarion.

[yabbadabba]

Background is exactly what I am talking about. I don't know why you mention balance, since the goal is to substantiate background. The problem is bolt-on special rules fail completely to substantiate background.

GW rules and background took a walk away from each other from very early on otherwise you would have combat squads taking on 300 model guard armies in games aka Hollywood Marines style.

The bolt on rules exist to differentiate between armies with some vague nod towards the background, but not id slavish devotion to them. To get that link closer would need a complete overhaul of the rules and army lists.

[Askari]

Firstly, without sounding arrogant or dismissive of your ideas, I'd propose you take a look at my own Chaos fandex for ideas. Not that you should take them on board, but there's quite a lot there (make sure you scroll down to the newest version) that may help you.

Second, I really can't agree with Counter-Attack on Mark of Khorne. You rationalise that Furious benefits melee units more than ranged units, but so does Counter-Attack, while not tying in well with the frenzied berserk associated with Khorne.

The 3d6 for Tzeentch does indeed benefit the psykers, but it's decidedly less powerful for all the non-psyker units in the army. Perhaps just add AP3 Bolt weapons (note, not just Bolters, but Twin-linked Bolters, Bolt Pistols and Heavy Bolters also) a la Inferno Bolts and it'd probably be fine.

Lastly, I also disagree with Orthodox, USRs are the pretty much the only thing differentiating Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Space Marines. Yet those three armies do play significantly differently. Space Wolves being a reactive hunter, Blood Angels being fast assault and Space Marines being a mainly shooting army with a literal hammer in Hammernators.

[yabbadabba]

Explain yourself, yabba. You know me better than that.

While I can see that endurance might come from such attributes as bionics and the techno-organo virus I can't see it being enough to justify the addition of FnP. so you could resurrect the old bionics rule and give all Iron Warriors a 6+ Inv Sav. FnP is like Tank Hunters for me, close but no cigar.

For me I think that without the building rules being more substantive in 40K the IWs true skills become unrepresentable; I think its also amusing that IWs can be represented in Apoc better than regular 40K.

So I now have Move Through Cover, good for such siege specialists, and 6++ which can represent Bionics, vestiges of the techno-organ virus, and just generally being better at using cover (that can almost roll over into Imperial Fists as well). The 6++ can stack as well for HQ units, and can even stretch to Walkers.

[xavos]

I'd go for FNP 6+, move-through-cover or re-roll morale checks as an army-wide rule - maybe you get to choose.
As for the legions, I would just give the champion a special upgrade to tweak the squad a bit.

[Warmaster_John]

World Eaters were my first army, followed shortly thereafter by Iron Warriors, so I am a bit set in my view points on them

I have always seen World Eaters as a close quarters army, with an emphasis on HtH. They are shock troops, hitting hard and fast and letting others provide support. As such, perhaps just give Furious charge to Berserkers, as it fits them better than Counterattack, and let mark give something lesser, like re-rolling failed roll to wound rolls of 1. It helps both offensive and defensive troops. Or, let the mark grant Relentless when not using Heavy weapons, to encourage Bolter troops to move forward with the Berserkers.

For Iron Warriors, I had a rule in my Fandex where they could still shoot, even if they go to ground. In my version, they counted as moving, but to make them stronger for yours you could remove this. This allows them to make better use of cover, but to me represents a "hunker down and return fire" way of doing it rather than "we're sneaky -- in our silver armor..." As far as Tank Hunters, I made extensive use of this in the 3.5 days, and it made my regular group of players weep, which is why I worry about it. Still, you make a valid point, and it only really benefits a few models in the army, though Missile Launcher havocs are SO nasty with it.

To be honest, I like the Inv saves for Tzeentch (it was one of the only good things about the latest codex, to me). Previously, MoT really only benefited psykers. You couldn't even take it for Lords. Perhaps it opens up the ability to take "minor" psychic powers (passive ones, like Eldar Warlocks), for the character or squad. Or maybe some anti-psyker stuff, like a 5+ Nullify roll.

Nightlords used to get Stealth (one of the first to get it, if memory serves). However, that plus Acute Senses isn't much. Hell, give them Hit and Run and Stealth

Slaanesh seems a hard one to represent on the battlefield. In 2nd ed, Noise marines were the only cult troops to get Fearless, as they didn't fear death. Also, they had a psychic cacophony rule that made it hard to cast powers near them, representing the crazy noises they made. Sorry, my early devotion to Khorne means I've never cared much for Slaanesh

[Son of Sanguinius]

I'll be posting an update later today with all of these concepts taken into account.

Until then, to all who think the World Eaters and other Khornate warriors need to have cc buffs alone, I retort with this.