What the new Empire release means for Dwarfs :)

[TheRaven]

I for one, as a 20 year dwarf player, am very happy about the new empire release because I think it means good things for the dwarfs.

One of my favourite things about GW over the last few years was how they really try to derive and establish unique themes and motifs for their armies. I used to always complain the Ogre kingdoms had no place in Warhammer since I didn't feel they filled any particular niche, but then GW came out and gave them a unique "Feel": wandering ice age horde that has awesome prehistoric creatures. Cool. This was reiterated in the designer discussions that "Used to be" in White Dwarf (May you rest in piece, but that's another discussion....), and Jervis has said that they are trying to make sure all armies have good unique releases and armies that have been taking a while are because they are doing alot of work on them to make them feel unique. Again, awesome

Now, fast forward to Dwarfs. Dwarf and Empire have kind of clashed in terms of who is the more "Steampunk Army". Over the last few years though Empire have kind of been getting more "Steam punk Attention", and I know many players would kind of /sigh at the fact that Empire seem to be getting the better technology. Dwarfs have also not had a new unit in nearly 20 years. I'm not kidding, as a kid who picked up and love the old 4th edition dwarf book nearly 20 years ago, it's been disappointed to see that pretty much everything we have now was there in 4th and we'd pretty much have to sit through 20 years of just Rules Updates, nothing exciting and new. (Honestly if VC can get nearly 10 new units in the last 5 years, can't we get a bit of love?). I also always feared that GW dwarfs would lean more towards the LotR dwarfs, basically short Norsemen but to me that was just boring.... nothing unique about that, and really Warriors of Chaos kind of fill that imagery.

So I had been following the empire build up with anticipation. GW is trying to separate army feels to make everything feel distinct and unique and what they try to use to define Empire wouldn't be carried over to dwarfs. So would they expand the empire steam punk motif or would they go more imperial and churchy. Thankfully the Empire didn't really go the steampunk route and instead tried to focus more on a more "Imperial" imagery releasing new models for the colleges and imperial zoo and tone down the imperial artillery.

So this, along with the 8th edition rule book focus on the dwarf airship has me thinking that GW is leaning towards making dwarfs more steampunky instead of going away from that. I for one am very happy with that, and given that the dwarf book still hasn't received an update even though it's older than O&G, VC, Empire, the upcoming Warriors of Chaos book has me excited that we have something really good in store Anyone else thing the winds are pointing this way? Will the love finally trickle down (No Pun Intended) to the stunties?

[Stephanavich]

At least if GW don't give Dwarfs some steampunk goodies, then I'm pretty sure Forge World are about to, because these were at their Open Day:



I think that both Dwarfs and Empire can be steampunk-y. As long as there are plenty of Warmachines and cogs and gears in the pipeline, I'll be happy. I for one ADORE steampunk, and if GW add more steampunk to Warhammer, then I'll be happy. But however they do it, they need to be careful; I don't want too many rifles/pistols because for me, they aren't "fantastical" whereas clockwork robots and crazy contraptions designed by insane inventors are.

Oh yeah, and there's also this piece of artwork they showed at the open day too:

[TheRaven]

Frack yeah, that's what I'm talking about! Now there is an awesome direction for dwarfs

And GW and forgeworld seem really coincide with each other on what they release. Case in point, Demigryph character from Forgeworld, Demigryph Knights. So hopefully this is a precursor to an awesome direction for dwarfs Man those look sweet!

[Urgat]

All those pics are from Warhammer Online, in fact.
For instance:
http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/galler...643_141555.jpg
http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/galler...643_154385.jpg
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery...r%20Online.jpg

[DareX2]

This thread touched on the subject of potential direction for Dwarfs, including new units. The community was divided on the subject of steampunk/runic creations. The Longbeards want Dwarfs to be all infantry all the time, seasoned with ranged warmachines to taste. The Engineers want steam/ancestor golems, airships, gyrocopter units, steam-tank sized mining drills, types of anvils, Throne of Power/Book of Grudges mounts, runic magic, etc. Personally, I want big toys, and lots of 'em!

[Morkash]

I also read in the N&R section that the Battle for Blackfire Pass will include Dwarf goodies, and maybe even an airship. So, even if not from GW directly, Dwarfs will get some love for sure. And if you look at the Chaos Dwarf stuff...this love will good quite good...

[TheRaven]

My hope for this thread wasn't so much which direction should dwarfs go, but more of a: "Now that Empire clearly did NOT go more Steam Punk and technological, does that give more indication that they're saving that niche for dwarfs".

I remember being quite jealous of Empire over the last decade when they got their Steamtank, 4 black powder artillery pieces and sniper riffles. Just felt like as a Dwarf player we'd forever have to listen to other armies sing "Anything you can do I can do better".

[Wesser]

Have ye no pride in your ancestors beardling?

Surely what worked for your great-great-great grandfather will work for you? Bolt Throwers and crossbows. That reliable old-fashioned dwarf weapons!

Enjoy hehe

[Gop]

at least let them invent bicycles so the warriors are a bit faster

[DareX2]

My hope for this thread wasn't so much which direction should dwarfs go, but more of a: "Now that Empire clearly did NOT go more Steam Punk and technological, does that give more indication that they're saving that niche for dwarfs".

I remember being quite jealous of Empire over the last decade when they got their Steamtank, 4 black powder artillery pieces and sniper riffles. Just felt like as a Dwarf player we'd forever have to listen to other armies sing "Anything you can do I can do better".

I think what we'll see with Dwarfs will be some runic and steampunk creations. I could see monstrous infantry in the form of stone golems, chariot-classed units in the vein of the Death Roller, a reworking of the anvil (and perhaps making the anvil a mountable rare choice), re-tooling the gyrocopter to be a little beefier, a mountable option for Dwarf lords (that aren't, y'know, just other dwarfs holding a shield).

I really think there's a ton you could do for Dwarfs, and I think there's a lot that needs to be done with Dwarfs. I feel - and this is just me wishing deperately - that the Dwarf book will be the 8th ed book to receive the biggest change from its previous version. Not to say it won't play more or less the same - elite infantry with elite warmachines - but that the list won't feel so static and samey.

[Boddicker]

In the fluff it says dwarfs are staunch traditionalists, and they basically exile any engineers that show too much innovation. It also says in the fluff that all those dwarfs go to the empire (Altdorf, Nuln) and make machines for them. It wouldn't make sense for the dwarfs to be more steampunk.

If anything that was my major disappointment with the new Empire book. In my ignorant opinion the strength of an Empire army should be the warmachines. Imperial wizards should be weakened compared to other older races. The Empire would be progressing into an industrial society.

Did that come out right?

[The bearded one]

All those pics are from Warhammer Online, in fact.
For instance:
http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/galler...643_141555.jpg
http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/galler...643_154385.jpg
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery...r%20Online.jpg

The design of the airship is definately extremely similar to that of the ones in warhammer online, down to the ancestorfaces on the front, but I have extensively trawled through the concept art sections on the warhammeronline site, and I can not remember the pics stephanavich posted that were apparently shown on the forgeworld open day being in the WAR concept section.

I also read in the N&R section that the Battle for Blackfire Pass will include Dwarf goodies, and maybe even an airship.

battle for blackfire pass? Did I miss something? Is this warhammer forge stuff? Tamurkhan followup?

[Iverald]

Well, I liked the traditional "short norsemen" approach. It was very different from WoC, as for me the Dwarves embody the creative side of Norse culture.

I still am very disappointed with the new aesthetic direction for the army. Until 7th edition dwarven technology consisted of different "Norseified" mediaeval contraptions which, with the exception of the gyrocopter were not hard to believe that they could work IRL. Boring? Maybe, but it was MY kind of boring.

I am still at loss how could anyone think that randomly sprinkling oversized cogs and sprockets all over the minis would signify advanced technology... cf. Master Engineer with Great Weapon and current crossbows; not to mention impractically massive and stationary war machines (I think that if you are fighting a war, you'd like to have easily portable artillery assets...) half-shaven beards , improbably long or muscular arms on machine crews and poorly executed chainmail. I'd grudgingly accept steampunk if it MADE SENSE and was well executed, but the current line does not even try to persuade me.

Granted, most 7th ed. metal miniatures are brilliant, i.e. the thanes and the runesmith with staff, but the majority of my army will remain pre-7th.

In one of the recent rumour threads, Harry expressed his hopes that this direction will change. It's no rumour, just a tentative prediction bordering on wishful thinking but I hope it will become true.

[DareX2]

battle for blackfire pass? Did I miss something? Is this warhammer forge stuff? Tamurkhan followup?

Yes, yes, yes and yes! Battle for Blackfire Pass will be the new Forge World book after the Monstrous Arcanum. It will feature Dwarfs and Empire duking it out with Orcs and Goblins. A shot of the cover is in the Forge World Open Day thread.

[m1acca1551]

There will be 2 books in 1 i think, allowing for the ultra conservative dwarf armies and the newer holds who believe in inovation is the only way to bring the dwarf race back to its glory.

I have the funny feeling dwarfs will get a dreadnought type monsterous infantry unit.

[Sh4d0w]

In the fluff it says dwarfs are staunch traditionalists, and they basically exile any engineers that show too much innovation. It also says in the fluff that all those dwarfs go to the empire (Altdorf, Nuln) and make machines for them. It wouldn't make sense for the dwarfs to be more steampunk.

If anything that was my major disappointment with the new Empire book. In my ignorant opinion the strength of an Empire army should be the warmachines. Imperial wizards should be weakened compared to other older races. The Empire would be progressing into an industrial society.

Did that come out right?

I actually so agree with you on this, they definitely should be progressing into the industrial age, for me this means many cheap war-machines that while still effective are nowhere near as good as the dwarfs who have honed their craftsmanship over many centuries. The whole bid to put the empire on par with magic in other races is stupid in my opinion, yes they should be able to use it but those giant laser guiding magic systems are over the top and unnecessary.

For the dwarfs development i just hope they don't do with the last couple of books, couple of new characters, couple of big-based things of various assortment and a monstrous infantry unit, it would absolutely destroy my loves for my dwarfs, they should focus instead of sticking with infantry and new crazy dwarf war-machines that while crazy are still RELIABLE <-------------Key word here.

[Harry]

... Anyone else thing the winds are pointing this way? Will the love finally trickle down (No Pun Intended) to the stunties?

Yes, I think so. I think they will get quite a big re-think this time around ... for exactly the reasons you state they have been bumping along as generic Dwarves for more than 20 years with not much beyond the gyrocoptor and flame cannon which make them uniquely Warhammer .... Oh and the slayers. I also believe the reason we have not seen them yet is because they are getting a bigger re-design.

The design of the airship is definately extremely similar to that of the ones in warhammer online, down to the ancestorfaces on the front, but I have extensively trawled through the concept art sections on the warhammeronline site, and I can not remember the pics stephanavich posted that were apparently shown on the forgeworld open day being in the WAR concept section.

Almost without exception the warhammer on line concept art is inspired by GW concept art. If it appears in Warhammer online concept art it is because someone shared some GW concept work with them. They might have developed it and taken it a bit further or in a slightly different direction but the traffic is all one way. GW ideas informing Warhammer online ... not the other way around.

Well, I liked the traditional "short norsemen" approach. It was very different from WoC, as for me the Dwarves embody the creative side of Norse culture.

I still am very disappointed with the new aesthetic direction for the army. Until 7th edition dwarven technology consisted of different "Norseified" mediaeval contraptions which, with the exception of the gyrocopter were not hard to believe that they could work IRL. Boring? Maybe, but it was MY kind of boring.

In one of the recent rumour threads, Harry expressed his hopes that this direction will change. It's no rumour, just a tentative prediction bordering on wishful thinking but I hope it will become true.

Actually no, I said that is what I thought was going to happen ... not what I wanted to happen. I am with you all the way. Norse master craftsmen all the way. Not fussed at all about the recent war machines ... loved the old wooden ones. MY kind of boring too. For me the only additional colour a Dwarf needs is a different coloured hood. Other than that ... a little fella clad in leather and chain mail with axe or hammer, a craftsman by day skilled in wood, metal and leather ... singers, drinkers tellers of tales by night and ... in times of need ... staunch defended of there homes.

There will be 2 books in 1 i think, allowing for the ultra conservative dwarf armies and the newer holds who believe in inovation is the only way to bring the dwarf race back to its glory.

This is what I hope will happen. I understand the need for unique warhammery feel for the armies but I hope they leave the more beardy traditionalists with the option to field more traditional Dwarf armies .... and this certainly seems the way of things with recent books. The 'one list to rule them all' approach allowing for numerous different bullds from the one list rather than the alternative army list approach they went down with some of the first books gives me hope that the new dwarf book will have something for every dwarf player and you can decide if your Dwarf army represents a more forward thinking and innovative Dwarf hold or that of a staunch traditionalist dwarf king who is having none of it. Grumpy old git that I am .... I mean he is.

[kelthrai]

Why do you always know the true and right things Harry

[m1acca1551]

This is what I hope will happen. I understand the need for unique warhammery feel for the armies but I hope they leave the more beardy traditionalists with the option to field more traditional Dwarf armies .... and this certainly seems the way of things with recent books. The 'one list to rule them all' approach allowing for numerous different bullds from the one list rather than the alternative army list approach they went down with some of the first books gives me hope that the new dwarf book will have something for every dwarf player and you can decide if your Dwarf army represents a more forward thinking and innovative Dwarf hold or that of a staunch traditionalist dwarf king who is having none of it. Grumpy old git that I am .... I mean he is.

The only issue is is that some one may take it to far, and have that taking lets say steam juggernaught (dreadnoughts) you cant take long beards or use a master rune smith as a general or LD bubble etc, then again... it is very dwarf like lol i cant wait!!

[Forse]

I can only say that I agree on what has been said about the general aesthetics. First, I want to say that I love both sides of the Dwarf race. I like the norse culture thing they have going on, exactly as Iverald and Harry described it. But I also love the steampunk, radical dwarfs with mad engines and a taste for adventure. What I don't like is the recent aesthetics where absolutely everything has to be made out of iron or stone. It's just rediculous, and not pleasing to the eye either. I do think GW will need to make something new for the dwarfs. They can't just say the dwarfs are grumpy and leave them to stagnate, so I welcome new kits to the dwarfs. Let's just hope GW can do it with style (ie without oversized cogs and iron as the only material they work with).