What the new Empire release means for Dwarfs :)

[Zabousta]

I can totally agree to that. I would not at all like to see mounts. Slow and steady is the Dwarf way. Steam punk intrigues me, but is by no means essential to the growth of the race.

Ever wonder why with all the technology, Dwarves have never used weapon teams like Skaven? Seems viable to me, although they would be reliably made.

You could argue that timeline advances with each new release......so if they phased out things like crossbows and bolt throwers, it would make sense. Even Dwarves have advanced, albeit slowly.

I think that any changes would be good. My concern would be to keeping the slow and steady dwarvish feel to the army. I would also like to see them stop losing in the lore.

If I can win on the table top, then my army should also win in the pages and pages of lore.

[Haravikk]

I would not at all like to see mounts. Slow and steady is the Dwarf way.

The two are not mutually exclusive; just take a look at the shield bearers! Something like that but bigger, e.g - four bearers and a larger platform with something on it, could be good. Gives the lords monster-like protection, with decent damage from the bearers, could be a good addition, especially if the "mounts" had some other perks to them. I made a big War Horn along these lines, idea being it'd bolster the army somehow.

so if they phased out things like crossbows and bolt throwers, it would make sense.

Some Dwarf holds are much more traditionalist than others, so it's unlikely, as their engineering guilds may consider even cannons to be newfangled nonsense compared to the tried and tested bolt-thrower. The defining feature of Dwarf war machines should be consistent potency, as opposed to say Skaven which is more powerful, but liable to explode.

[Balerion]

One thing I don't see suggested that often is the possibility of shooty monstrous infantry/cavalry. I guess they tried (and failed) to do something like this with Ushabti, and Ogre Kingdoms have a bunch of shooting options, but it would work a lot better in a Dwarf list and help differentiate their monstrous choices from everybody elses.

[Spiney Norman]

If I were a dwarf player I'd be acutely worried by the Empire release. If it is an 8th edition policy to nerf To the ground everything that operates in the shoot phase as they have done with Empire than dwarfs are in for a tough ride. on the other hand it might not be a design decision at all and the problems with the new Empire book being mainly down to the author being clueless.

One thing is for certain, if you are expecting your army to get a new book in the near future, get down on your knees and pray to whatever gods you believe in that Robin Cruddace does not get the job of writing it.

[Not-not-kenny]

As someone said earlier I think the dwarfs are supposed to be traditionalistic and afraid of change as opposed to the humans (Empire) who are more innovative and willing to try out new things and experiment. I would be very disappointed if dwarves became more steampunky since that seems too crazy and unreliable for such a staunch and conservative race. Maybe they should focus more on the mythical aspect with for example golems made of earth and rock and given life with powerful runes for MI instead of dreadnaught-like steampunk robots.

[Ouroborus]

If I were a dwarf player I'd be acutely worried by the Empire release. If it is an 8th edition policy to nerf To the ground everything that operates in the shoot phase as they have done with Empire than dwarfs are in for a tough ride. on the other hand it might not be a design decision at all and the problems with the new Empire book being mainly down to the author being clueless.

One thing is for certain, if you are expecting your army to get a new book in the near future, get down on your knees and pray to whatever gods you believe in that Robin Cruddace does not get the job of writing it.

dude, the empire will still dominate the shooting phase


it is only the mortar that took a hit

[Liber]

If anything that was my major disappointment with the new Empire book. In my ignorant opinion the strength of an Empire army should be the warmachines. Imperial wizards should be weakened compared to other older races. The Empire would be progressing into an industrial society.

Not progressing? What do you call the combining of magic and science? They got 2 new war machines, their master engineers got new models/rules, and they have access to handguns, tanks, multi barrel cannons, cannons, mortars, and rocket launchers. What exactly were you hoping for? Machine guns? Warhammer has to stay stagnant, no society can achieve "modern industrialization" as then they would be the dominant power and destroy all their enemies. Its not allowed.

Also in regards to your quote, the strength of the Empire should be (and is) in their diversity, ingenuity, and courage. Which is exactly what this release is pushing.


@the OP, I completely agree, if you read the BRB entry for the forces of Dwarfs, it becomes very clear that (hopefully) GW is pursuing a 'technological Renaissance' of sorts to 'save the Dwarfs from their decline'. If I get a Dwarf model (maybe crewing the large machine kit) wearing goggles, I will be fulfilled :P

[DareX2]

@the OP, I completely agree, if you read the BRB entry for the forces of Dwarfs, it becomes very clear that (hopefully) GW is pursuing a 'technological Renaissance' of sorts to 'save the Dwarfs from their decline'. If I get a Dwarf model (maybe crewing the large machine kit) wearing goggles, I will be fulfilled :P

I hope you're right about the "technological renaissance." I absolute love the lore, look and feel, but the army's design philosophy bores me to tears.

I also think that there aren't enough Dwarfs with:
-Goggles
-Cigars/pipes hanging off their lips
-Intricate, ornate suits of plated gromril
-Intricate, ornate weapons
-Flaming orange mohawks

I feel there's a huge disconnect between the Dwarf art and Dwarf minis. Old OOP Dwarfs are fantastic, but the move to make Warhammer grittier and darker didn't really do the Dwarf models any favours. Which is a shame because, again, the artwork of Dwarfs throughout the various books is so incredibly cool. I think GW really needs to get their butts in gear, since other companies are putting out some absolutely perfect Dwarf minis...

[Khorneflakes]

1) a good character mount id like to see instead of shieldbearers would be a bear of some sort.
2) steam powered mini dreads, similar to grey knight dreadknight as a monstrous unit in the special section
3) a large plastic blimp in the rares
4) crossbows to be move AND fire, with the moving to hit modifier
5) organ gun that fires 2 artillery dice shots that can both be rerolled if needed, similar to existing one but needing to hit rolls
6) flame cannon to function like it use to
7) to keep most of the runes with tweaks to them or access to the common items if they take most of them away.
8) unit champs to take 25 points of runes maybe?
9) or one warrior unit to get a 25 point banner.
10) weapon teams is a good idea, smaller versions of existing weapons
11) a mounted unit would be good...........?
12) able to take a shield on BsB!
13) oath stones allow rerolls for one dice per dispel attempt

mmmmmm more of a wish list me thinks

[teafloy_the_damned]

I really do believe with every army GW release, they seem to move to make all the races the same
Everyone must have monsterous calvery
Everyone must have a big kit monster/machine

Dont get me wrong, there ballancing everything so theres less "weak races" and "strong races"
It leaves me a little nervous about warriors of chaos getting a "shooty" build list. And yes i know double hellcannon is out there but i'm talking about missile weapon troops.

But again, i dont really care about any of that, good for GW is what i say......my main huge, massive concern is the dwarf rune system.

Runes have made dwarf characters some of the most worrying combat characters in the game. There like boxes of chocolate, your enemy knever knows what there gonna get, a 70pt thane or a 300pt nigh-on unkillable lord

Runes have made dwarfs so much fun for the past 15 years i've played them and massivly unique.....so i worry they'll get generic-a-fied
...Oh and runesmith/lords that cast "runes" in the magic phase using power dice (shudder's and strokes beard for comfort)

[Urgat]

1) a good character mount id like to see instead of shieldbearers would be a bear of some sort.

That's the last thing I would ever want to see for dwarfs. Ever. I'd rather see them learning magic first than ride bears
No offense

I really do believe with every army GW release, they seem to move to make all the races the same
Everyone must have monsterous calvery
Everyone must have a big kit monster/machine

And so, that makes the OnG, TK, OK, VC and Empire the same? There's limits to exaggerations :/ Even TK and VC are completely different, big kits and monstrous infantry/cavalry or not. People keep using that argument, but I don't see it at all. Has the VC armybook lost its soul because of those big ghoul things, seriously?

[Spiney Norman]

dude, the empire will still dominate the shooting phase


it is only the mortar that took a hit

Ummm, no it wasn't, hand gunners and crossbowmen also went up by a point each, and small arms fire did little enough already, actually all empire shooting except outriders got more expensive and only the helblaster improved in any way. Pistoliers were already made of suck and didn't get any better. I'll grant you that outriders are still good, but core shooters are not

[teafloy_the_damned]

Has the VC armybook lost its soul because of those big ghoul things, seriously?

No punn intended?

[Damien 1427]

Deathroller-esque mining machines as Monstrous Cavalry.

[Skopey]

Some Sort of steam powered Gromril armour for lords and engineers like the old Squat EXO-suits would be ace.

[Zabousta]

The thing with 8th edition is that it caters to large blocks and active combat resolution. This means that the better your troop and the more you have you generally do better than your opponent. (Chaos warriors, bloodletters, witch elves.) It is the number of attacks and the amount of combat res that they can generate that makes them very formidable.

Dwarves, while having good armor only ever get 1 attack, and usually go last. Sure they hit hard, but they can't keep up in wounds. Bloodletters negate armor and so do chaos warriors with their strength value. For the point cost, I find that dwarf infantry is not worth it. 8th ed is just too big block oriented.

Now if the anvil could give them an extra attack like the cauldron of blood that would be great. I would even say that dwarf infantry should have access to gromril armor even at core level. They are supposed to be the best smiths in the world (arguably)

It is sad to say that some games come down to how many dice you roll. A block of 10 dwarf warriors pump out 10 attacks, while a block of 10 witch elves put out 20 attacks. Now there are other factors, such as armor and poison, but the more points you pump into the units, the more the witch elves pull ahead. Add an armor piercing banner and a cauldron and the witch elves get pretty insane. Dwarves just don't have much to boost their combat capabilities. The banners are....ok (not really much that bumps up combat skills) Besides that they get......nothing.....I mean ohhh an extra move from the anvil.

That was a bit of a rant, but my point is that most armies get a way to boost their combat capabilities of their units. Dwarf players really don't. Its the artillery that they rely on.....and lets face it. Artillery will get a slight nerf.

You can choose from 4 or 5 different close combat units, with little to no difference between the choices, and with no way to augment them save putting a combat character into the mix.

Its a fairly boring static list. I really love my dwarf army, but I will take just about anything to diversify the list of choices.

Bears are kinda cool, but seems much too close to WoW to see that happen.

Here is your bear

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread...ng-on-War-Bear

[Urgat]

Now if the anvil could give them an extra attack like the cauldron of blood that would be great. I would even say that dwarf infantry should have access to gromril armor even at core level. They are supposed to be the best smiths in the world (arguably)

Being the best smiths doesn't magically make gromril plentyful

[Grimdesign]

Are you sure? It seems a bit random to me. For instance, the new CoK had to have been designed for a while when they released W:AR, and in the MMO they're nothing like the new minis, same for the hydras, or the aforementioned squig released by FW (copy/paste for FW, stellar opposite in style for GW's manglers). It seems weird to me that Mythic would have used GW's concept, and then GW would use different ones. Look at Azhag's wyvern, it's does seem to have been inspired by the video game's wyvern, but with a GW's twist. Why would GW make a concept, but they would be the ones not to faithfully respect it (and it's not merely a question of style: the manglers are definitely cartoony, the wyvern is clearly not)? I'm not saying you're wrong, it just seems off, somehow. The cockatrice is mightily different, too.

That's just design iteration, the Mythic artists get a few sketches, maybe even a few fully hashed out pictures and then they go to modeling. In the meanwhile, there are more sketches being hashed out in the interim that result in something else entirely. At this point in time, the animated Mythic models should already be textured and rigged, redoing anything at that point would have messed their pipeline up. Not that Mythic isn't known for doing that on their own of course

[DareX2]

TNow if the anvil could give them an extra attack like the cauldron of blood that would be great. I would even say that dwarf infantry should have access to gromril armor even at core level. They are supposed to be the best smiths in the world (arguably)

First, I disagree that gromril should be given to core troops. Dwarfs may be the best smiths of the Warhammer world, but that doesn't mean they can produce a suit of gromril for every clansman, nor does it mean they can easily and quickly replace suits of gromril that were lost in battle. Plus, the description in the Dwarf book states that "gromril armour is limited to wealthy Dwarfs and elite Ironbreakers." Not that you can't bend or change that for the sake of the army list as a whole, but I think heavy armour is perfectly suitable for the core warrior.

However, you do touch on something that I do feel will be changed when Dwarfs get their new book: supporting buffs. All the armies have access to various forms of buffs (and debuffs otherwise). Either through magic, heroes, special units, etc. Buffing troops mid-game has become one of 8th ed's trends, and is something that the Dwarfs certainly lack. I can see the Dwarfs getting units that enhance Dwarf infantry, through the anvil (and perhaps new, similar ideas), Runesmiths, Book of Grudges/Throne of Power, etc.

It is sad to say that some games come down to how many dice you roll.

That's what the entire game is based on: rolling dice. It's the core mechanic of the game, and decides the outcome of entire games. You could be most brilliant tactician the Warhammer world has ever seen, but the dice gods can always put your best laid plans to rest.

I'm exaggerating your point for fun, of course. I know what your example is trying to illustrate, and I do partially agree, despite how you invalidated your own example. It would be fairer for you to compare Dwarf warriors to DE corsairs, or one of the Dwarf elite units to the Witch Elves, and to not arbitrarily discount "other factors" such as equipment, statlines, step up attacks, and comparative point values. Though, as mentioned earlier, I do agree with the core of your argument, that Dwarfs could do with some mid-game buffing options.

I also agree that the list needs far more variety. The whole iterations of a warrior thing is such a disservice to how varied and interesting Dwarfs are.

[DaemonReign]

My guesses on the 'next' Dwarf Book:

- Slayers become Special, unit-restrictions removed, increased cost, possibly slight tweaks to their Special Rules. Basically: Look at Flagelants.
- Magic Defense will be slightly toned down. I am hoping not by much. Depends on who's writing I reckon.
- Cannon/Grudgethrower will probably recieve a pointhike beyond what any Dwarf player will feel is suitable. They could be left alone, though, as far as I'm concerned.
- I'm hoping they'll stay away from any Monstrous Cav/Infantry. Zeppelin would be awesome though.
- Organ Gun will need to roll ToHit and otherwise recieve the same treatment as Cannons.
- Anvil of Doom will become usable, and hopefully without the use of Power Dice.
- In my opinion Great Weapon Core Dwarves are a good benchmark for 'balancing' the other troop-choices in the list.

Strictly Wishlisting:
- Thorgrim's Throne available as Mount Option for your Generic Lord/General.
- Sheildbearers Mount Options allowed duplication for all Lords in your Army (possibly Thanes too).
- Rune system rebalanced and expanded (I know the second part is unlikely at best, alas, but hey I said wishlisting).
- No Golems, No BearCav, if possible no more Steampunk bs.
- Gyrocopters fielded in units of 1+.

I suppose I could go on, but that'll do..
Dwarves are in a pretty good place in 8th Ed. Wishlisting and guessing about specific details like the exact armour save of a future Iron Breaker seems pretty futile. It suffices to conclude that this army shouldn't go "up" or "down" in general power and GW should be carefull with plotting additions to the Army given the strong 'traditionalism' of Dwarves.

EDIT
Flame Cannon.. Oh the poor all but forgotten Flame Cannon.. Well let's hope they give it some range without overdoing it like Forgeworld did with the Chaos Dwarf equivalent.