Circle Starter Box - What to do with Kaya?

[loveless]

The other night I did a quick pick-up starter box battle. My opponent grabbed Legion (usually my first choice) and I - going against my better judgment - grabbed Circle instead of Skorne.

Now, it was proxying, which apparently I'm bad at since I managed to forget that Feral Warpwolves are not paragons of survival. He was quickly dispatched by a careful application of arrows, a Shredder missile, and a very pissed-off Carnivean.

Kaya busied herself with clearing out a pair of Shredders while an Argus moved in on another. It was at about this time that I realized I had no idea how to use an Argus. In desperation, I used the other Argus to paralyze the Carnivean and Shredder to keep them off of Kaya's back.

Due to my dice hating me, the next thing I knew I was down 2 Argii and Kaya was sitting in combat with a Carnivean (I honestly don't remember how that happened). I pulled away from the nasty dragon (taking a rather painful free strike), and moved over to Lylyth, who my opponent had obligingly left wide open.

Then I realized how much I take Tenacity for granted. Kaya swings. Miss. Swings again. Miss. Swings again - Knockdown! 5 damage. Swings, 3 damage. By this point, I'm out of Fury and my gambit has failed.

In the end of the game, Kaya is sitting on on 1 wound, and a Carnivean charges her in the back and rolls a trip 6 on his bite damage. Ouch.

---

Moral of the story is, I don't know how to use Kaya. I've gone over Battle College and such, but I'm still not seeing any direction for her. How do you use her? I just stared at her spell list in confusion (though Spirit Fang is sort of fun). It's a bit difficult to hide a Warpwolf from Lylyth and her Carnivean, though I suppose I could have sacrificed an Argus. What's Kaya's win vector there? Get close with her Beasts alive, smack things, pop feat, continue to smack?

Something is just not clicking for me and Kaya. I kept getting the feeling that I would have had a far easier time with the Skorne or Trollblood boxes. Am I missing something obvious with the original Circle gal?

[Deadnight]

its called the Kaya yo-yo, the kaya slingshot and the kaya missile for a reason. and its all to do with spirit door, not spirit fang. oddly, you've glossed over the key to success with her. kaya is a one trick pony, but what a trick! she's very much an assassination caster, but she does need a beast bullet a lot of the time.

on a turn where you are around 10 - 11 inches away pull this one. activate the feral. morph his +2spd. charge. thanks to kaya's passive +2 to attack rolls you're effectively dealing with mat9. he's hitting. 3 initial attacks. 4 bought attacks. thats a lot of pain. kill stuff. preferably whatever is closest to you. rip it to shreds. then move on to kaya. and activate her, move her back. keep checking her control area. when she is 12" away from the feral, then you go and cast spirit door. that feral that was slap bang in the middle of the other guys warpack? well, now he's not there any more - now he's standing pretty next to kaya. effectively, it lets you kill the other guys stuff without "trading" yours in return. the rest is just gravy. he's out of charge range, and if he wants to engage, he has to run at you. next turn, repeat the spirit door shenanigans. move kaya to a safe area, and pull your spirit door trick again. for the other guy, its like fighting shadows.

other uses are stealth, which whilst with little use against legion, is very useful against lots of other foes.

and look at Kayas feat. those 6 fury of attacks you spent? well, you could have had 12. charge her, spend 6 fury worth of attacks/boosts. then pop feat, place 2-3 fury on each of your beasts, and immediately leech an extra 6 fury. buy/boost attacks as per previously. quite handy, actually

i have a lot of experience with ferals. i will always run one. their tanking is second to none. what they charge, they kill. but they're vulnerable. until you're gonna engage them, morph their +2arm ability. ARM18 isnt too shabby at all. remember as well, so long as they have 1hit in each aspect they're fully combat capable. regarding the argus. i use it as a wound sink, or as an animus. tracker is deadly with the lord of the feast. the argus is very much a situational support piece. at spd7 he's useful for running out and grabbing an objective, or as the aforementioned animus/wound sink, but his mat and POW is terrible. i wouldnt use him for anything else other than bonus solo hunting.

[Havock]

Kaya is fine as long as you play low-point games and stay away from scenario's. She hits like a girl and runs like one too

[loveless]

I do want to add...it's been a long time since I've actually played. Next to no scene in my town and most of my time is spent building/painting.

its called the Kaya yo-yo, the kaya slingshot and the kaya missile for a reason. and its all to do with spirit door, not spirit fang. oddly, you've glossed over the key to success with her. kaya is a one trick pony, but what a trick! she's very much an assassination caster, but she does need a beast bullet a lot of the time.

on a turn where you are around 10 - 11 inches away pull this one. activate the feral. morph his +2spd. charge. thanks to kaya's passive +2 to attack rolls you're effectively dealing with mat9. he's hitting. 3 initial attacks. 4 bought attacks. thats a lot of pain. kill stuff. preferably whatever is closest to you. rip it to shreds. then move on to kaya. and activate her, move her back. keep checking her control area. when she is 12" away from the feral, then you go and cast spirit door. that feral that was slap bang in the middle of the other guys warpack? well, now he's not there any more - now he's standing pretty next to kaya. effectively, it lets you kill the other guys stuff without "trading" yours in return. the rest is just gravy. he's out of charge range, and if he wants to engage, he has to run at you. next turn, repeat the spirit door shenanigans. move kaya to a safe area, and pull your spirit door trick again. for the other guy, its like fighting shadows.

Makes sense...Ferals still feel a bit "meh" to me, but with the Warpack you use what you've got. My issue was that I threw the Feral out there expecting it to survive and forgetting to move it back - but if it was just my stupid mistake, then so much the better I'll give it another shot this weekend.

other uses are stealth, which whilst with little use against legion, is very useful against lots of other foes.

True enough, though as you note, pointless against a Legion warpack.

and look at Kayas feat. those 6 fury of attacks you spent? well, you could have had 12. charge her, spend 6 fury worth of attacks/boosts. then pop feat, place 2-3 fury on each of your beasts, and immediately leech an extra 6 fury. buy/boost attacks as per previously. quite handy, actually

Oh, I love her feat. I just didn't get the chance to use it as everything got torn asunder before I could pop the feat. C'est la vie.

i have a lot of experience with ferals. i will always run one. their tanking is second to none. what they charge, they kill. but they're vulnerable. until you're gonna engage them, morph their +2arm ability. ARM18 isnt too shabby at all. remember as well, so long as they have 1hit in each aspect they're fully combat capable.

ARM18 is fine and dandy until you get hit with Parasite and/or a raging Carnivean comes crashing into you. I wasn't impressed with its survival skills when push came to shove - I overestimated that ARM18 and my opponent's ability to roll ridiculously well with his attacks. Maybe it was just bad luck - I had shoddy positioning, but I was shocked at how squishy the Feral felt. Then again, when you're used to Dragonspawn and Titans, several things feel squishy.

regarding the argus. i use it as a wound sink, or as an animus. tracker is deadly with the lord of the feast. the argus is very much a situational support piece. at spd7 he's useful for running out and grabbing an objective, or as the aforementioned animus/wound sink, but his mat and POW is terrible. i wouldnt use him for anything else other than bonus solo hunting.

Fair enough. The winter version seems far more useful, though I can definitely see the use of the normal Argus' Doppler bark. Flipping through the Circle beasts, he seems to be all about the animus and the considerable speed.

Thanks for the input.

[Thanatos_elNyx]

There are not many things that can survive a charging Carnivean, especially if the target has been parasited.

[Deadnight]

Makes sense...Ferals still feel a bit "meh" to me, but with the Warpack you use what you've got. My issue was that I threw the Feral out there expecting it to survive and forgetting to move it back - but if it was just my stupid mistake, then so much the better I'll give it another shot this weekend.

ferals are great. especially when primaled. you know that max-furied carnivean you're complaining about? well, very little can survive the onslaught on a maxed out feral. I've had mine kill 2 heavy warjacks in 1 activation one time. he cant take a hit in return - but with spirit door, he doesnt need to be in that position. problem is, by your own admission, you threw it out expecting it to survive. Nothing "survives" in this game. everything can be killed off. and a feral is a prime target. thankfully, with Kaya you wont be in that position.

True enough, though as you note, pointless against a Legion warpack.

but useful against 80 odd percent of the game's ranged units.

Oh, I love her feat. I just didn't get the chance to use it as everything got torn asunder before I could pop the feat. C'est la vie.

her feat is useful, but its not the best thing about her. her "thing" is her beast bullet.

ARM18 is fine and dandy until you get hit with Parasite and/or a raging Carnivean comes crashing into you. I wasn't impressed with its survival skills when push came to shove - I overestimated that ARM18 and my opponent's ability to roll ridiculously well with his attacks. Maybe it was just bad luck - I had shoddy positioning, but I was shocked at how squishy the Feral felt. Then again, when you're used to Dragonspawn and Titans, several things feel squishy.

1. he rolled ridiculously well.
2. its a raging carnivean. trust me - very little can survive a charge from one of those monsters. but thats warmachine. Like i said, if it had been the feral to get the drop on the carnivean, it would be the feral who'd be the one ripping things up.
3: ARM18 is great against infantry, and most shooting attacks. but it wont survive a fully loaded heavy. again, thats warmachine. its ARM18, not a 2+ re-rollable invulnerable save with feel no pain.

Fair enough. The winter version seems far more useful, though I can definitely see the use of the normal Argus' Doppler bark. Flipping through the Circle beasts, he seems to be all about the animus and the considerable speed.

if the argus had the winter argus' statline, it would be worth it. otherwise i find it overpriced-by rights it costs 3.5 but got rounded up instead of down. winter argus is situational at best. first thing i actually did when i got my circle warpack was to get a gorax as the "other" 4pt light. having 3 different beasties is a good thing.

[loveless]

Right. Thanks for the input - though I have that feeling of "oh, duh, I knew that" reading through much of this. Thanks for helping me shake the rust off

I'm going to give this battle a shot again this weekend - should be able to be less ridiculous. I'll stick with Circle because I'm stubborn - even though I know Legion/Skorne would be more effective in my hands. I'm just determined at this point

Additionally, I appreciate Stealth, trust me. I just know it's a waste of Fury to cast Occultation in a battlebox game vs. Legion.

The gorax annoys me a bit. The new model is definitely an improvement, but it's ridiculously intense. I've been working on Wolds anyway - I was just making sure I could properly analyze my own failures lol.

[Tort]

There are not many things that can survive a charging Carnivean, especially if the target has been parasited.

So this is wrong but people who don't play much might not understand why. There are very few heavies in the game that will reliably kill any other undamaged heavy in the game without external buffs and the Carnivean is no exception to this rule. Without Parasite the carnivean will do on average 23 damage to a feral warpwolf and kill it 29% of the time, that's if it has not warped ARM. If it has warped ARM it's 17 damage and 5% chance of killing it. With Parasite and no warped ARM it's 31 damage and 66% chance it dies, with parasite and warped ARM 26 damage and 44% chance of killing the warpwolf. With just the feat it's 34 damage and 77% chance it's dead, feat + warp ARM is 25 damage and 41%, feat + parasite 46 damage (94%), feat + parasite + warp ARM 38 (86%).

That's the importance of buffs in this game, of course if you are putting parasite on something Lylyth normally does a bit of damage to it too, she only needs to do 2 damage and you get above 50% chance of the Carnivean killing the warpwolf even with warped ARM.