Search lights and POTMS?

[Wolflord]

Hi guys, Im having a brainfreeze here.
Does SL count as a weapon, for targeting, when using it?

So, if I move a landraider 12", can I "Light up" one vehicle and fire at another, using Potms?
Or do I always need to use a weapon while targeting? So by going 12" I can only fire at the target I am using search lights at? What about defensive weapons?

I want to use a vehicle to light up necrons with, and hopefully be able to fire at another close by target at the same time.

Edit: can or must shooting rules work for using search lights? Will a Rhino be able to use SL after moving at cruising speed?

[TAU AIR CASTE]

I believe you must be able to shoot to use the search light, so normal tanks will be able to move 6" and shoot one main weapon and in doing so be able to use a search light if they can see them self.
The Land raider would be able to move 12" and use potms to fire 1 weapon, it would not be able to fire defensive weapons as irrc potms allows you to "shoot 1 extra weapon" so you would only be able to shoot one weapon but if this could see the target in night fight then it could also use a search light.

[Bunnahabhain]

No, it doesn't count on it's own. You need to actually shoot something.

We've had threads about search-lights while stunned, moving at various speeds etc...

[Wolflord]

So if my Rhino have a weapon destroyed it cant use its SL?

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Hey, wait, can a Land Raider that didn't move light up two targets? I never thought of that before...

[Bunnahabhain]

Hey, wait, can a Land Raider that didn't move light up two targets? I never thought of that before...

Yup. Or moved at a speed to allow it to fire one weapon normally. PotMS allows you to fire a second, at the same or another target. Same for a Storm-Eagle, or the Storm-turkey, or anything else with 2+ guns and PotMs

@ wolflord. Sorry, forgot about that probable exception. To use a search light, you need to pick a target. To do this, you need to shoot, or at least try to and then find you have no guns left. By strict RAW, a shaken/stunned ( barring posesssion, PotMS, etc..) vehicle can't use a search light, but one without guns can...

[copper.talos]

You must be able to fire a weapon to use a searchlight. Having no weapons means no searchlight too.

[Seattledv8]

You must be able to fire a weapon to use a searchlight.

Agreed

Having no weapons means no searchlight too.

I don't believe you can show that.
The newer Codices have this wording (GK codex pg. 61; SM codex pg.103)

If a vehicle has a searchlight it must use the Night Fighting rules to pick a target, but having aquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight.

A searchlight only uses the first step in the Shooting Sequence, Check Line of Sight and pick Target.
It is a 'weapon' so to speak on it's own.
Once that is done the searchlight works.

To be fair some older Codices do have a different wording, Dark Angels for example, say 'having hit that unit' instead of 'aquired a target'.
Although it is still talking about the searchlight.

[Kevlar]

Figures, GK even have better searchlights.

Thanks Mat Ward!

[ehlijen]

While agree that vehicles without guns should be able to use a searchlight, how can they establish LOS to the target when vehicle LOS is checked from gun barrels? There's gotta be a way, but I can't find it in the rules right now.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I would let them use the searchlight to check line of sight for itself.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

For vehicles shooting a target LoS is checked along the actual gun barrel. A rhino with weapon destroyed has no gun. So nothing is within LoS (for shooting). So it fails to aquire a target. This is not a matter of "can you use the hull for LoS perpuses. For firing with a vehicle you must have a gun to start the first step of the shooting sequence.

[Bunnahabhain]

I can see there is a strict RAW problem here, on not having a weapon to draw LOS from. For reference, there is a a FW unit, consisting of a few guardsmen manning a search-light, as an artillery piece, which has no other weapons. So that doesn't work at all by RAW.
Given there are no rules on where you should mount the search light, it therefore follows that this works.

Leman russ with multi melta sponsons ( MM), with a search light ( SL) mounted on the right hand sponson .
......Target
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
................................VERY.TALL.WALL.WIT H. NO. HOLES
................................Leman russ
............................MMLeman russ MM
............................MMLeman russSL
................................Leman russ


So there is absolutely no way for the search light itself to draw LOS to the target, but as a weapon can do so, then it works?

Would it be too easy to draw LOS for the searchlight from the searchlight?

[TheGreatDalmuti]

It is not hard, it is just not what the rules say...

[copper.talos]

First of all lets leave FW out of this and stick to units we all know and play with them.

The searchlight is a cosmetic addition to the vehicle. It has no other use other that making the vehicle WYSIWYG. Nowhere in the rules is specified how to draw LoS out of a searchlight. Rules require that "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must use the Night Fighting rules to pick a target". How can you pick a target if not using LoS? And the only way to pick a target is, as normal for vehicles, using the barrel of a weapon. No weapons = no LoS.

One could of course argue that you don't use LoS at all to pick a target for searchlight and just roll for nightfight distance. Then you could end up "illuminating" a target within nightfight range but behind LoS blocking terrain which is of course unacceptable by any reasoning.

[Bunnahabhain]

So any vehicle weapons that don't have barrels, ( i.e manticore, deathstrike, whirlwind,) can't draw LOS at all, ever?

And those that don't need or use LOS (i.e much ordnance barrage), they seem to pick a target just fine.

If we look at the night fight rules ( p 95)..." remember that distances to/from vehicles are measured to/from their hull, and not their guns"
EDIT: Why didn't one of us check the actual rules rather sooner?

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Distances not LOS. Something can be within nightfight distance but not within LoS. Would you still claim be able to shoot it?
Also even if something doesn't have a barell it is still there. Measure LoS from where it actually is. It not having a barrel actually gives you more freedom as to how the line in LoS goes. You don't have to trace it along a barrel.

[copper.talos]

Until someones quotes a rule from BRB on how to draw LoS using a searchlight I'll stick to the "you need a weapon" side. And for the record barrage weapons can fire using LoS. It's called direct firing.

[Kevlar]

My searchlights are turret mounted not hull mounted so they have a 360 degree line of sight!

[TheGreatDalmuti]

That's for weapons. Turret mounted searchlights have LoS in 4 dimensions so it's 360x360x360x3AAA Battery life = not very much actually...