Search lights and POTMS?

[Bunnahabhain]

This just shows the mess having a mixture of model and unit driven rules can result in....

So you could have.

........l<---------------------------------19"----------------------->l
Target............................................ ...........................Rhino.Razorback

The razorback wishes to shoot the target, and rolls a spotting distance of 19".
The front of the tank, is within 19", but has no LOS.
The turret is not within 19", but does have LOS.

So the gunner can shoot the target, measuring the range from their gun, despite the fact that the range from gun to target is further than the night fight spotting distance, as you measure that range from somewhere else. The searchlight on the tank can illuminate the target without being able to draw LOS.

What a total mess,

[Nurgling Chieftain]

So the gunner can shoot the target, measuring the range from their gun, despite the fact that the range from gun to target is further than the night fight spotting distance, as you measure that range from somewhere else.

That sort of thing is pretty normal with 5th edition's "all-or-nothing" night fight rule. While two guys in the same unit with the same gun might be in and out of weapon range respectively, they'll always either see or not see collectively.

Given that they apparently changed the searchlight rule to specifically not require actually firing a weapon, I think that RaW-ing a "firing a weapon after all" requirement is obviously against RaI.

[copper.talos]

A searchlight only uses the first step in the Shooting Sequence, Check Line of Sight and pick Target.
It is a 'weapon' so to speak on it's own.
Once that is done the searchlight works.

To be fair some older Codices do have a different wording, Dark Angels for example, say 'having hit that unit' instead of 'aquired a target'.
Although it is still talking about the searchlight.

BRB pg 16t "In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have LoS to at least one model in the target unit." So the prerequisitive for picking a target is LoS. In order to trace LoS you need fully functioning weapons. And since a searchlight is not listed as a weapon you cannot use it to trace LoS.

[ehlijen]

Although, where does it say that LOS can't be measured from destroyed weapons if they are left in place on the model?

Normally you wouldn't check as they can't fire anyway, but if you need LOS for a searchlight, couldn't you still look down the barrel to discover that, yes, there is some badguys to point a shiny light at?

[copper.talos]

When a weapon is destroyed (or crew shaken/stunned) it can not be used at all. You need permission for "partial use" such as that for tracing LoS, which in the current ruleset is not given.
If you want more justification then think that in the case of weapon destroyed you should have removed the barrel along with the weapon from the model. And in the crew shaken/stunned condition the crew is described as not being able to use a weapon.

[ehlijen]

I'm not using the weapon, I'm just tracing LOS from the barrel. That happens before I even select a target according to the shooting procedure.

When shaken or stunned, yes, no shooting is allowed and thus no searchlight. But weapon destroyed does not dissallow shooting in general, only shooting specific weapons. So a vehicle with no guns left is technically allowed to shoot, but can't fire any of it's weapons. That is a perfectly rules legal state to be in. It can still select targets and therefore use searchlights, using it's weapon barrels for LOS (the rules never tell us to remove parts of the model in response to damage results), it just can't fire any specific weapon.

[copper.talos]

When you get a weapon destroyed result you should remove the whole weapon from the model and from then on yoy can't use it any way imaginable. That's what destroyed means.

Anyway, using destroyed weapons for tracing LoS won't convince an experienced opponent and I can't think of any TO that will accept it. So don't count on it.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

What are yu using to trace Los? The weapon. But you said you aren't using the weapon... ANyway, for all intets and peruses the weapon dosen't exist, There is no barrel. Because you can't remove it because it is glued or for other modeling peruses in no way means it is still there.

[ehlijen]

Where does it say to remove the weapon? And where does it say a weapon or model can't have a LOS just because it can't be fired anymore?

Using a dead gun to measure LOS no less silly than saying a searchlight can't be used because the rhino's stormbolter got shot off.

[copper.talos]

Well the BRB says that the weapon gets ripped off the vehicle. If you need your opponent to physically demonstrate that effect in order to prevent you from tracing LoS out of that weapon, then inform him at the beginning of the game.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Since it is in the same sentence that says what weapon destroyd is, I will rip the gun off it's mount if I ever play you, literally.
Ripped off means it is not there. That is what weapon destroyed does. It vanishes the shole weapon. You should not let it obscure models behind or anything, it is treated as not being there at all.

[Eldoriath]

I'm with ehlijen on this one. Just like how a walker can run while shaken (giving up the shooting it is not allowed to perfom) a vehicle that is able to shoot (even if it has no weapons) should be able to use a search-light basing LoS from a weapon mounting or even just hull.

Also, the whole bit about vehicles LoS is fuzzy since the rules concerning their weapons imply that LoS only apply for their weapons.

"VEHICLE WEAPONS & LINE OF SIGHT
Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a
line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them.
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them against
the target and then trace the line of sight from each
weapons’ mounting and along its barrel, to see if the
shot is blocked by terrain or models."


Also as to take the whole debate to another level we take in infiltrate in the debate to see if they can deploy within 12" of an isolated vehicle in plain sight as long as they aren't exactly where the barrels of the vehicle are pointing? The argument, after all, is that vehicle LoS is only in a straight line along weapon barrels.

[copper.talos]

Tracing LoS means active use of an existing weapon. Running doesn't.

And that infiltrate issue has a thread by itself on this forum.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

It is not fuzzy hear, by night fight and spotlight rules you must target something you are going to shoot (leave aside the actual shooting, we are just talking about step 1 now) and this happens in a certain way for vehicles.

[Eldoriath]

Actually, if you read the rules through RaW this is what I find:

Searchlights - Tells us to use the night fight rules to pick to pick a target and then illuminates it. Also says nothing that we must be able to shoot a weapon to begin with, just that the intended target must be within night fight distance and if we want/can fire one/more weapons it will be at this unit. (Codex: Imperial Guards, page 71)

Night fight rules (page 95 rulebook) - Tells us that we select a target (no mention that we need LoS to it), roll to see if it is within spotting distance and then proceed to the firing procedure (checking LoS, range and stuff). If the spotting distance to/from the hull is greater then the distance between the units we are still allowed to fire.

"After selecting a target, but before a unit fires,
a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly
spot their target through the darkness. Roll 2D6 and
multiply the result by 3, then measure the distance
between the two units (remember that distances
to/from vehicles are measured to/from their hull, and
not their guns). If the distance between the firing unit
and their target is higher than the total rolled, the unit
cannot fire at all in this Shooting phase, as they search
the dark for a target that never appears."

So strangely enough this could mean that a SL doesn't need LoS at all to light up a unit, only that it needs to be within NF distance.

Page 15 of the rulebook makes no mention that you have to be able to fire a weapon to pick a target. Only that it has to be within LoS (but these rules are superceded by the night fight rules when they apply since then it is special).

[copper.talos]

OK let's rinse and repeat one more time.

What you are looking for is in the 1st sentence:"After selecting a target". How do you do that? In BRB pg 16 there you'll find this: "In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have LoS to at least one model in the target unit."

It's after selecting a target, having LoS is the prerequisitive then. And unless you find a rule in the BRB that allows you to trace LoS using searchlights, you need a fully functioning weapon to do that.

[Eldoriath]

Where does it say you need to be able to fire the weapon? Show me that first. All that is said in the weapon destroyed part is that it is destroyed, not removed. So evidently it is still there.

The rules regarding LoS
"... Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing
model to any part of the body ..."

Admittedly vehicles weapons have separate rules for tracing LoS when firing. But there is nothing in their rules saying it's the only way for a vehicle to trace LoS, only that weapons have to independently tarce LoS to be able to fire.

Also it is known that not all models have eyes and therefore we can use an analogy for them as we see fit.

[copper.talos]

You need a fully functional weapon to be able to trace LoS. That's how vehicles trace LoS. And a weapon destroyed means it doesn't exist any more. That's what destroyed means, that's what the weapon destroyed result describes. You may have glued the weapon on the vehicle but that doesn't mean rules wise that after being destroyed it's not gone and you can use it in any way.

[Eldoriath]

You are referring to the rules how vehicle weapons trace LoS when firing. I'm referring to the general rules how a model trace LoS which state you use the eyes of the model. But as stated, not all models have eyes and we are free to assume all have.

So, where is your rule that say that only the weapons are used for LoS? I have quoted the rules for how vehicle weapons trace LoS and how models trace LoS and nothing is contradicting in the rules.

I summarise them below again:

The rules regarding LoS
"... Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing
model to any part of the body ..."

"VEHICLE WEAPONS & LINE OF SIGHT
Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a
line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them.
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them against
the target and then trace the line of sight from each
weapons’ mounting and along its barrel, to see if the
shot is blocked by terrain or models."

Emphasis of mine indicates that these rules only concern for firing a weapon and is not a general rule of how vehicles trace LoS. Or is the argument that vehicles are blind as long as they are not firing?

[TheGreatDalmuti]

So how do you trace LoS from a vehicle?
RAW only from weapons. You have no rules that say you can do it any other way.

Actually LoS for infantry is also for shooting only. But when another rule or ability asks for LoS for an infantry model you will use the same rules. Can you explain to me why you will not do the same for a vehicle?