Pop quiz, hot shot...

[willowdark]

You're staring down the table at a Hell Pit A-bomb, a Doomwheel, 2 big units of Slaves, some Clan Rats, a Warp Lightning Cannon, a Plague Furnace with full compliment of Plague Monks, along with your regular bits to fill out the points.

You have 3x10 Glade Guard and the Hail of Doom Arrow.

What do you shoot?

I say the Plague Furnace. Soak 'em with enough shots to soften them up then swarm them. It's the most points on the board that you can get the easiest and most effectively. So get the points and run away from everything else.

What are your thoughts? Discuss.

[BigbyWolf]

Why would that be all you have? Surely it's far less points than what the Skaven have to offer?

[willowdark]

Because I'm just talking about the shooting phase. Obviously you'd have more points, but I was just trying to get to the root of what each person's shooting priorities would be.

[warplock]

The Warp Lightning cannon's the only thing listed which can inflict mass casualties at range, so that might be the best thing to neutralise? You can just avoid the plague furnace.

[Djekar]

Hrm, no flaming banner, huh? I'd have to say that if everything is fair game I would go after the cannon first and then the Abomb/Doomwheel (while staying out of conceivable 3d6 range). Warplock is right, you can avoid/lead the furnace around with some eagles - poor, sacrificial eagles.

Without knowing the situation on the rest of the board, it's hard to say what the "best" option is - you might be in a good position to hammer one or more of those targets and so shooting them becomes a bit superfluous.

[Chicago Slim]

I'm assuming that the other 1500 points or so is Tree Kin, Treeman, lots of Dryads, and a wizard (Life-4, of course). As the OP says, "soften them up then swarm them". So, he's telling us his shooting resources, and leaving the exact composition of that "swarm" unsaid.

As a fellow MSU woodie, I'd say a lot depends on the deployment. If you can crush one flank, while denying the other, that's about the easiest path to winning that we have. If he parks a unit of slaves on a wing, figuring it'll anvil out for the game, show him the error of his ways (2 rounds of shooting to strip off a quarter, then pile on dryads and burn them up quick-- once they're down to even 2 ranks, they're really likely to break: sure, they're Steadfast-- but without their full compliment of rank bonus adding to Leadership, it doesn't matter!) If he presents his Doomwheel, take it out (6's always wound, and at close range, you'll peel off his 4+ armor save very quickly! Even with just 3 wounds done, he'll have to think twice about getting it anywhere that your big wood could finish it off).

Basically, I wouldn't start off by trying to decide which target to hit. I'd start by deciding which flank to own, and then go to work on whatever's there...

[willowdark]

I'm assuming that the other 1500 points or so is Tree Kin, Treeman, lots of Dryads, and a wizard (Life-4, of course). As the OP says, "soften them up then swarm them". So, he's telling us his shooting resources, and leaving the exact composition of that "swarm" unsaid.

As a fellow MSU woodie, I'd say a lot depends on the deployment. If you can crush one flank, while denying the other, that's about the easiest path to winning that we have. If he parks a unit of slaves on a wing, figuring it'll anvil out for the game, show him the error of his ways (2 rounds of shooting to strip off a quarter, then pile on dryads and burn them up quick-- once they're down to even 2 ranks, they're really likely to break: sure, they're Steadfast-- but without their full compliment of rank bonus adding to Leadership, it doesn't matter!) If he presents his Doomwheel, take it out (6's always wound, and at close range, you'll peel off his 4+ armor save very quickly! Even with just 3 wounds done, he'll have to think twice about getting it anywhere that your big wood could finish it off).

Basically, I wouldn't start off by trying to decide which target to hit. I'd start by deciding which flank to own, and then go to work on whatever's there...

Yeah, deployment is the biggest unknown in this hypothetical, especially if you roll dawn attack and are forced to deploy your shooters in a way that doesn't provide good overlapping shooting lanes.

I was thinking Doomwheel would be a good choice as well, for all the same reasons. That seems like one option that would really fall to the mass shooting.

I'm surprised no one has said the Slaves. Seems like WE would benefit more than most armies by clearing out slaves without having to fight combat, since our model count is so low and Slave popping would hurt.

[BigbyWolf]

Because I'm just talking about the shooting phase. Obviously you'd have more points, but I was just trying to get to the root of what each person's shooting priorities would be.

Ah, I see what you're getting at. Assuming that all the models are of an equal distance away (so as to reduce the effectiveness of my bows), and nowhere near any of my other units (so I don't have to worry about protecting anything), or hidden by any terrain, I'd go for whatever I felt the rest of my army would have trouble dealing with, so either the A-bomb or the Furnace + monks.
But that really is dependent on a lot of variables.

[willowdark]

One of the reasons why I thought this was such a good question was because of the variables, but not just the variables we don't know - the rest of my points, deployment, ranges, terrain - the variables we do. The value of the Skaven units.

For instance, think about the overall strategy of the game, the ultimate victory not just the most immediate benefits. Think about the economy of action. The first thing that occurred to me was to shoot the Doomwheel, because it's such an immediate threat, because it's otherwise very difficult to deal with, and because it's very vulnerable to shooting, especially the HoDA. But then it occurred to me that a Doomwheel isn't exactly a lot of points, so while it's a huge investment in points to take it out for a defensive victory, stopping it from wrecking my line, it's not a big payoff offensively for the huge investment.

That's why I thought that the Plague Furnace and the Monks would be a better target because they yield a bigger payoff in points, potentially even collecting the banner or taking out the general.

But that's why I thought Skaven would be a good subject to have this discussion over, because you can crunch the number so many ways, a testament to how internally balance the Skaven book is. It takes a lot of brass to allow an A-bomb, a Warplightning Cannon, and a Doomwheel, to run free in the early turns and to concentrate on such a foundation piece like the Furnace Monks. There is a lot there to shuffle around in terms of how you set your priorities, and I think says a lot about each of us as strategists, since there really aren't any right or wrong answers.

[brother_maynard]

definitely the abom. its the easiest to kill compared to the pts you'll get out of it. then kill the doomwheel. the cannon is dangerous but the threat it poses to your small units is really negligible compared to the other two. and the big blocks aren't really much of a threat at all, especially the frenzied plague furnace.

[Gaargod]

But that's why I thought Skaven would be a good subject to have this discussion over, because you can crunch the number so many ways, a testament to how internally balance the Skaven book is. It takes a lot of brass to allow an A-bomb, a Warplightning Cannon, and a Doomwheel, to run free in the early turns and to concentrate on such a foundation piece like the Furnace Monks. There is a lot there to shuffle around in terms of how you set your priorities, and I think says a lot about each of us as strategists, since there really aren't any right or wrong answers.

Well it depends. What turn are we on?

Because if we're on turn 1, and you're ignoring the killy stuff to deal with the plague furnace... I'd say that counts as wrong. Deal with the doomwheel, because it's a scary thing against your trees; deal with the abom, because it's a silly thing capable of doing a lot of damage. Both of those can't be deal with via avoidance, due to random movement. The warp lightning cannon... To be honest, I think i'd be trying to deal with it in combat. If that's just not an option, then try to deal with the immediate problem first (i.e. if either of the critters are getting close to important stuff, kill them first). Possibly try hiding your treeman/kin depending on terrain.

Assuming 'full complement' of plague monks = ~30, + plague furnace + plague priest with gear ~ 500-600pts of unit. But it's a seriously difficult unit to get any of those points out of - about the easiest is the actual furnace itself, by just spamming shots at it and hoping to wound.

So if we're in turn 5-6, and neither of the big critters are wounded / about to deal damage (killing them may prevent them from killing your stuff, remember), then I'd shoot the furnace, specifically. Moreso if I can reasonably get a combined charge on the unit in the near future. But seriously, how often is that going to happen?

[brother_maynard]

i agree with Gaargod, the furnace is actually the worst target imo. it may be the most points, but its the hardest pts to collect as well as being the smallest threat on the table.

[popisdead]

Why would that be all you have? Surely it's far less points than what the Skaven have to offer?

Exactly, take 80-100 archers

[boli]

If the skaven player has the same luck I do with the WLC you need not fear that! never hit once and its blown up or had its shots fizzle every match :/ Add to that its 90 only points and whilst he can cause mass casualties there are 2 rolls it can completly fail on.

HPA is T5... only a 5+ to wound at short range and a glade guard w. flaming banner will take it down pretty easily.
27 shots @ 3+ = 18 hits
18 hits @ 5+ = 5 wounds
Flaming no save, no roll on too horrible to die = dead HPA.

Doomwheel *can* die to mass shooting but T6 and 4+ save mean the HPA is easier to take out.

Don't bother with the plague furnace unless you throw *everything* at the model; you'll definatly want to avoid this model as my opponant found out to his cost last night... toughness saves with elves = lots of dead elves

To kill 35 plague monks (well 30 and you'll stop it moving entirely) you'll need 90 shots at close range or 180 shots at long range.

[SkawtheFalconer]

My experience of the Doomwheel is that it's very tricky for Woodies to take out any way other than shooting.

Personally, I would shoot the weapons teams that I'm sure are hanging out at the side of those block units...

[willowdark]

Flaming banner has been mentioned a couple times. My assumption in the OP was that I was running 3 units of 10 rather than a single volley of 30, so even if I took the banner it would only help 10 shots. Does the flaming banner make a good argument for a single mass unit of Glade Guard? I don't think so but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I've also been considering a big unit of 10 Wild Riders to take the flaming banner and deliver flaming attacks through combat. In that case, that would be how I planned to handle the HPA.

And, yes, I think weapons teams would be a solid choice too. Poison wind mortars I think are especially dangerous to WE.

Still no one thinks we should shoot the Slaves?

[brother_maynard]

Flaming banner has been mentioned a couple times. My assumption in the OP was that I was running 3 units of 10 rather than a single volley of 30, so even if I took the banner it would only help 10 shots. Does the flaming banner make a good argument for a single mass unit of Glade Guard? I don't think so but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

what do you mean the flaming banner only benefits 10 shots? if you cause one flaming wound, you stop regen for the whole phase, so all subsequent shots fired at the target benefit as well. i don't think you need a massed unit of 30 but a couple extra (14-15 guys total) will make sure the wound goes through.

I've also been considering a big unit of 10 Wild Riders to take the flaming banner and deliver flaming attacks through combat. In that case, that would be how I planned to handle the HPA.

i wouldn't risk it. i don't know how expensive they are but i imagine they are hugely overcosted. if they fluff their attacks, you just lost 10 wild riders. if you fluff a round of shooting, you have another chance and lose no VP's.

And, yes, I think weapons teams would be a solid choice too. Poison wind mortars I think are especially dangerous to WE.

i agree, but only after the HPA and doomwheel have been handled.

Still no one thinks we should shoot the Slaves?

there's no reason to. they're not worth anything and can't threaten anything.

[SkawtheFalconer]

I've also been considering a big unit of 10 Wild Riders to take the flaming banner and deliver flaming attacks through combat. In that case, that would be how I planned to handle the HPA...
Still no one thinks we should shoot the Slaves?

The Wild Riders might work against HPA as it doesn't have an armour save, but they'd really struggle against a hyrda. If the list is tooled for Skaven fine, if all comers I'd recommend one of GG to have banner (And have them shoot first, so everything else feels benefit).

I don't see the point of shooting the Slaves. They don't cause panic in anything else (except other slaves), will be reasonably hard to panic (if there's loads of them taking out a quarter would be hard, plus they have a surprisingly good leadership with general nearby and a number of ranks), and cost nothing, so Skaven player wouldn't care either. My only exception to that would be if they're armed with slings - you need shooting superiority for GG to be effective.

[theunwantedbeing]

Just 30 gladeguard and a single hail of doom arrow?
That's not a lot to throw around at all.

Personally I would pick one of the ranked blocks and gun that down to a level where it's not a proper threat anymore, then slam something fighty into it.
Repeat the process unless the Abom get's too close, in which case fire at that and hope for the best.

[willowdark]

Just 30 gladeguard and a single hail of doom arrow?
That's not a lot to throw around at all.

Personally I would pick one of the ranked blocks and gun that down to a level where it's not a proper threat anymore, then slam something fighty into it.
Repeat the process unless the Abom get's too close, in which case fire at that and hope for the best.

This is what I mean when I talk about the Plague Monks or a unit of slaves. My style is a balanced combination of shooting and combat, which is why I'm only talking about 30 longbows and the HoDA. I guess I really underestimated how many people are bringing 60-80 or more Longbows in their WE lists, compulsively.

I could shoot the HPA and Doomwheel and avoid everything else, but that's not how I want to play. I'd rather avoid the HPA and Doomwheel and pick a combat block to soak with shooting and then clean up with combat. I think if I play right, either I'll lose my shooters to the HPA and DW because they are fast enough to cross the board, but by then the damage will be done and the two will essentially be out of the game, having outpaced the rest of the army. Meanwhile, the huge point sink Plague Furnace is reeling and going down under the pressure of massed Bow shots, Dryads and Wild Riders. Or I'll clean up the Furnace Monks fast enough that I can redirect shooting onto the HPA and DW for the rest of the game.

30 shots + HoDA isn't much shooting, so if the other ~1800pts is dedicated combat with some Magic support, and not suited for avoidance, wouldn't the better strategy be to avoid the HPA and Doomwheel and soak down the Monk Furnace?

Or, if there is a unit of Slave holding a critical spot on the board, wouldn't it be better to soak them down so you could punch through and surround the rest of the army without suffering too many hits from Slave Popping?