Ogres Over Powered? (Am I missing something?)

[Malorian]

So I was just listening to The Black Sun podcast and they were talking about how broken ogres are.

Now don't get me wrong, they are much better than they were in their last book, but to me I don't at all see them as broken. In fact when I play aganist them with my orcs I feel like it's an auto-win for me in most cases.

Only thing I could think of is that they are based in the UK and thus have heavy comp in their tournaments, and without the hordes to counter the damage or the numbers to bog them down I can see how mournfang would dominate.


So am I missing something? Do people really feel OK are broken? Or is this just an ETC thing?

[minionboy]

I've lost a grand total of 1 game with my current ogre build (two losses if you count the time the day after I broke up with my girlfriend and was so drunk/hung over that I couldn't read my dice), tied 1 time and won at least a dozen times so far. Still waiting for the summer to bring it to some tournaments and slap some people around with my fatties!

It could be an ETC thing as well though, since their comp is totally wacky and putting hard caps on units really prevents the enemy from lasting long against a big block of Ogres.

[Walls]

Yeah, I don't really get it either. Even North American players say the same thing. I think it's more that people expect garbage and get shocked that Ogres are good now.

[DareX2]

News to me. They've certainly got some powerful units and fantastic choices, but the thought of playing against them doesn't make me weep silently to myself.

[Siphen]

Honestly, at least in my opinion, Ogres are a little more than "good". In combat, they're one of the stronger armies in the game. Low initiative and weapon skill are their only downsides. Tons of attacks, high toughness, high strength, 3 wound models, impact hits, stomp attacks, high movement, cause fear...
They have the best cannon in the game, not only because it can move and fire but it can also kill most warmachine hunters and it has a better chance of bouncing the way you want.
They have some of the most powerful magic items in the game - Hellheart, Rune Maw, Greedy Fist, even the Dragonhide Banner is pretty nice.
Their magic lore isn't particularly impressive, although Troll Guts is amazing and their wizard is also a combat monster who regains wounds.
They have some of the most effective redirecting units in Sabretusks and even Noblar to some extent.
Their shooting isn't too bad thanks to Leadbelchers - high strength, armor piercing, tons of shots with no penalty, can move and fire with no penalty.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think Ogres are overpowered or broken or anything. I do think they're the most powerful 8th edition book (by far) and they're definitely one of the more powerful armies right now (I'd easily put them in the top 5).

[tmarichards]

The overall book itself isn't broken, but there are a few elements to it that are just way too cost efficient- specifically, Mournfangs and Ironblasters.

[Shimmergloom]

In fact when I play aganist them with my orcs I feel like it's an auto-win for me in most cases.

It is probably partly the ETC mess, but O&G are very well suited to counter Ogres. Ogres can pour in tons of attacks, which is hard for the elite armies to handle, but easier to handle when they are just killing goblins.

But like I posted in one of my battle reports, I lost 60ngs in one combat round to 6 guts + 2 characters, 3 fangs and a thundertusk. Now imagine that taking on elves or what have you, who don't have the numbers to withstand that number of attacks. It seems to me that Ogres are made to counter the elves, doc and woc lists of the world. So yes to them, I think Ogres are overpowered.

[Sexiest_hero]

Not at all, Ogres are OP to armies that spam mid sized elite like great swords, as well as armies that rely one lvl 4 mage one trick ponies. Elves have plenty of units that can take advantage of ogre flanks, that they never use. Bloodletter hordes can go toe to toe with ogers, Woc Can use Maurader steadfast hordes and flanking knights. Ogres are good against netlists.

[Far2Casual]

You aren't missing anything.

They have great matchups against the classic net lists of various so-called top tier armies like elves, doc, woc. I think that's why a fraction of top players, playing those armies specifically, see them as a gigantic threat. But they also have terrible matchups, like Skavens (who obliterate Mournfangs and tarpit Ogres for years), old Empire (how the hell are you supposed to manage 2*30 Flaggies and a Tank ?), O&G (tarpit with NG, own them with Savage Big Uns) and even Brets (no stomp ? no charge ? no steadfast ? can only target characters with 18A ? WTF ?). And don't get me started on Legion of Azgorh, that one is retarded

[SunTzu]

And don't get me started on Legion of Azgorh, that one is retarded

Curious why you say Ogres find LoA so hard to handle?

[Whut]

Curious why you say Ogres find LoA so hard to handle?

Probably because of the Magma Cannons. They fire like cannons but instead of bouncing they shoot a flame template.

Its exactly the same thing (profile, shooting rules) as a Skaven Warpfire thower but instead of the template starting at the base you can start it anywhere within 24". S5, D3 Wounds, Flaming, etc.

[Malorian]

Probably because of the Magma Cannons. They fire like cannons but instead of bouncing they shoot a flame template.

Its exactly the same thing (profile, shooting rules) as a Skaven Warpfire thower but instead of the template starting at the base you can start it anywhere within 24". S5, D3 Wounds, Flaming, etc.

I miss my pre-nerf dwarf flame cannon

[Scammel]

Ogres are indeed very good at the moment, but their weaknesses are very real. Low Ld, whilst not a huge issue for the blocks that will be doing most of the fighting, is a real problem for the likes of Mournfangs, Leadbelchers and the likes, particularly the former. Seeing half your attacks simply disappear due to low WS is also frustrating, especially for the core Ogres who lack the strength to really make those remaining attacks count, hence the popularity of Ironguts. Armour saves are pathetic almost across the board, if you manage to wound an Ogre (not particularly hard for 'proper' combat units, who will probably be going first) that wound will almost certainly stick. Elite infantry in particular can really punish the big guys for all these failings, so it absolutely isn't the case that they have an easier time against Warriors, in fact many Ogre generals would argue that they're a pain in the posterior!

[Torga_DW]

Ogres overpowered. I think somewhere an angel just got his wings. As a person who got the ogre army box upon release in 6th, this is a warm fuzzy moment for me.

[meowser]

My impression is that overall they are a top-tier list. This is exacerbated by particular army entries that I feel are OP, namely Ironblasters (undercosted), solo Sabretusks (min size 2+ or something), and the Hellheart

[Kahadras]

I agree that Ogres have some really nasty stuff. In no particular order...

Slaughtermaster - A magic caster with a great stat line (for a wizard) and the chance to heal himself every time he casts a spell. This guy isn't worried about seeing combat as he can take a lot of damage before he goes down and I think I've still to see a game where he's actualy been taken out in combat.

Mornfang cavalry - Are fast and hit like a ton of bricks (especialy with the Dragonhide Banner). The sheer damage they can put out from impact hits, Mornfang attacks, Ogre attacks and stomps is scary and they are pretty tough with their 2+ save and 3 wounds a piece.

Ironguts - A big formation of these guys with a character or two can wreak virtualy everything. I remember throwing over half my army into a block of these guys in a well coordinated, quadruple charge only for them to take everything I threw at them on the chin and then just beat the heck out of everything.

Ironblaster - An undercosted, mobile cannon that is quite scary in combat to boot.

Maneaters - Annoying Ninja Ogres armed with Empire handguns who turn up on your flanks and shoot stuff. Hard to get rid of without putting a lot of effort into it.

Ogres are just pretty damn good. They are really fast even with their basic Bull infantry. If they get the first turn they can be half way across the battlefield before you can do anything. Even though they don't have much in the way of armour (bar the Mornfang) they can absorb quite a lot of damage due to wounds and toughness. They have really good block infantry (even if they have a pretty mediocre leadership), good warmachines, good shooting, a solid magic lore. They do have a low initative but can take quite a bit of punnishment and still be able to deal even more back.

My idea of a scary Orge list would probably look something like this...


Lords/Heros -

Slaughtermaster
BSB

Core -

Ironguts

Special -

Mornfang
Maneaters

Rare -

Ironblaster

[Malorian]

Lords/Heros -

Slaughtermaster
BSB

Core -

Orge Bulls

Special -

Mornfang
Ironguts
Maneaters

Rare -

Ironblaster

Now start adding numbers to those and see what you come up with.

The problem with ogres is that these toys add up quickly and you are left with a very small army. So when they come up against anything with punch they're screwed.

[Da GoBBo]

The problem with ogres is that these toys add up quickly and you are left with a very small army. So when they come up against anything with punch they're screwed.

From you of all people I really don't understand this comment. As a firm believer of spamming big units you must agree that Ogres do that really well. A standardsized army can include several hordes. 54 wounds, 54 attacks, 6 stomps, 6-18 impacthits ---> that is the equivalent of 78-102 attacks per horde on the charge (of which 12-36 strike before combat commences), 66 attacks when not charging (but assuming the charge isn't unfair). Ogres also have the magic to back it up. To be honest I think an ogre player playing your kind of warhammer will completely cream your O&G.

It is not a matchup I would personally like to see though.

edit: drop one horde, still have some left and that gives plenty of points for toys. I agree they can't have em all, whether you play with hordes or not.

[minionboy]

From you of all people I really don't understand this comment. As a firm believer of spamming big units you must agree that Ogres do that really well. A standardsized army can include several hordes. 54 wounds, 54 attacks, 6 stomps, 6-18 impacthits ---> that is the equivalent of 78-102 attacks per horde on the charge (of which 12-36 strike before combat commences), 66 attacks when not charging (but assuming the charge isn't unfair). Ogres also have the magic to back it up. To be honest I think an ogre player playing your kind of warhammer will completely cream your O&G.

It is not a matchup I would personally like to see though.

edit: drop one horde, still have some left and that gives plenty of points for toys. I agree they can't have em all, whether you play with hordes or not.

I'm going to have to call you out on this one.

A slaughtermaster, bruiser bsb and butcher, plus a unit of 15 ironguts and 18 bulls is about 2100 points. That's not several, that's 2, and in doing so, you're missing out on most of the good stuff and still haven't met the 3 minimum unit rule either.

I find it very fun when ogre players say "there is nothing wrong with Ogres", and then the only thing I find is "compared to Skaven, Dark elves, Lizardmen"... they are in the top 4 most broken books of 7th AND 8th edition...

Try comparing ogres to the new books that has been released, O&G, Tombkings, VC and Empire... I think you will find that ogres are the cream of the 8th ed books ^^

A smart VC player has nothing to fear from ogres really, they have so many different flavors of charge redirector it's not even funny. Orcs are one of the toughest matchups for Ogres, combining cheap troops and access to high strength attacks that strike at initiative, they really are quite efficient at cutting down ogres. Tomb Kings can go either way in my experience, we have a very good TK player in our area and he usually does well. Empire are too early to call, since they come out tomorrow, but after writing some lists with my local empire player, I'm actually quite afraid that Empire will have little to no problem handling Ogres, hordes or not, in combat (+1 to hit, hatred and re-roll wounds adds up fast on halberdiers) and at range.

[minionboy]

They're called "Leadership Tests". Force the fatties to roll and they go down pretty quick. Banchees/Terrorgheists/Coven Throne whackiness anyone?

Also cannot wait to get my Sepulchral Stalkers out and turn those damned leadbelchers to sand.

^ This guy gets it. Armies led by Slaughtermasters have a whopping LD8 general (9 if they're smart enough to put him with Ironguts with the +1 LD banner).