Ogres Over Powered? (Am I missing something?)

[Da_White_Orc]

styles make fights.

some armies have more trouble with ogres, some with high elves

also there are some players that only have one move, and it works on half the armies, so they think 'hey i'm really good at this' and then when they fight an army that move doesn't work on they can't compute how someone as good as they are can get handled so easily so they cry over-powered

most people say dark elves are over-powered, I find them squishy. I find dwarfs to be the most open-to-abuse army, but don't say that around here or expect to get flamed mercilessly by a thousand dwarf players who never stop to think, 'hey there sure are lots of dwarf players right now...' yeah, of course there are, they're over-powered

and malorian, we have night goblins with nets, of course we don't think ogres are over-powered. strength 3 impact hits?! the horror! oh and he's three fanatics in your face for your troubles. and gift of the spider god and itchy nuisance are ogre killers.

[TsukeFox]

Against your orcs malorian
-your entire tourny list has strength 5 attacks or better on your RnF ( gogo choppa rule-!! Of only Waaagh was still good.)
Not That many armies can boast that, why warriors might be loosing that status soon depending on how the new book goes.

Just a thought.

[BEARO]

There's only 2 real "BS" as TsukeFox sorta, kinda, but didn't really point out:

1. Wizards with armor. Obviously this was a mistake, the designer said it himself, but alas, it stuck.
2. Greedy Fist + Death magic.

That is all. Everything else is fair imo. The army is very elite, very expensive, and utterly vulnerable to Shadow magic, I-tests or Ld. tests.

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

Like I said when he book was released, G.W really **** the bed with Ogres. When we wargamers look back on 8th ed. Army Books, Ogres will stand out as "top-tier".

They realistically have some of the cheapest troop to stat costs in the game, cheapest chaff, the best shooting, some really dumb magic items, essentially they can play almost any playstyle as they have every tool to their disposal. If you look historically at the really good armies in the past of 6th, 7th ed. and first few years of 8th ed., whomever has the cheapest, and most variety of options has a leg up on their counterparts.

To BEARO: ^^^ They are a semi-elite army that plays better than most of the elite armies in the current metagame, and are only vulnerable in reality to Death magic, or I.F'n Pit/Mindrazor -which dosen't happen often due the ability to take both a scroll and the Hellheart, or even better yet run a Runemaw build, which makes it moot point completely.

Ogres > 8th ed. books until H.E are released (you heard it hear first )

[Blkc57]

I play Nurgle Warriors of Chaos, so Ogres and most undead are an incredibly easy match up for me. I can usually hit the Mournfang before they hit me via Knights, and even their most elite troops the Maneaters tend to whiff combat on my core Nurgle warriors. Having said all of that I find they are somewhat of a failure in my eyes of the 8th edition army book mantra of balance and cost. They have two of the worst offenders in the Mournfang and the Ironblaster for being undercosted.

[Sexiest_hero]

I guess I have it easy with beastmen, str 5 t4 gors, Great bray shaman almost as hardcore as a slaughter master and lots cheaper, and my friend Mr doombull. I'd fight ogres over WOC bloodletter hordes double hydra/aboms gunlines high elves VC and Tomb kings. Even lore of the wild owns them!

[Gmaleron]

Ogres are not OP, to me it whenever I hear that I just get the impression that people have yet to learn how to beat the army, in this case so do I. I have struggled against Ogres (only won once, one draw and 3 losses) but that was when I was playing Wood Elves so it kind of makes sense. Now that I am returning to my first army of 8th edition (High Elves) and think I will have a better chance. Now a few things to consider for tactics to take on Ogres:

-As mentioned LD, granted they can get a LD 9 re-rollable bubble effect but that means his whole army is probably packed together very tightly. Solution? Re-directors and tarpit units. My one game against Ogres when I drew I forced his massive bull horde to pursue and Eagle and they ended up going a whopping 20+ inches (they charged, landed on a stonehorn then landed on impassable terrain all the way into the corner of the board).

-Also magic and shooting can be very effective as well but you just CANNOT allow under any circumstances to let that 4+ regeneration go off. It hurts but if you have the banner of eternal flame all you need to do is inflict 1 wound and your good to go.

-An MSU style approach would not hurt either as most Ogre armies I have seen tend to run large blocks of infantry. Bait with one unit, flee with it then flank with as many units as you can, you just have to view the board.

Hope these ideas help as I feel everyones pain when fighting Ogres, however they are not OP by any means.

[Scammel]

who really needs lore of maw when BRB Lores so much better. How do primitive ogres have access to more magic than tomb kings and vamps?-BS

To call BS on this sounds like a simple combination of jealousy and bitterness, how an army becomes broken by having access to 4.5 lores (Fire doesn't really count considering you can be level 2 at maximum with it) is beyond me. Don't forget that the big guys also have to take the LotGM on at least a single caster before getting access to those other lores, which isn't the easiest pill to swallow when characters are so expensive and there's so much competition for the slots.

I'd go over the rest of your post but then I realised it was simply calling BS on pretty much everything the Ogres have going for them.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Biggest problem with Ogres is points and hence ranks, and therefore a general lack of steadfast. Whilst there is always the stubborn hat or Maneaters, thats an absolute maximum of two units without magic.
Therefore, hit 'em hard enough with something like Cavalry (of the monstrous and non monstrous kind) and watch them run.
Alternatively tarpit and kill what you can. There are a few things that feel a bit off but nothing that bad.

Alternatively cast Purple Sun and laugh.

[TsukeFox]

To call BS on this sounds like a simple combination of jealousy and bitterness, how an army becomes broken by having access to 4.5 lores (Fire doesn't really count considering you can be level 2 at maximum with it) is beyond me. Don't forget that the big guys also have to take the LotGM on at least a single caster before getting access to those other lores, which isn't the easiest pill to swallow when characters are so expensive and there's so much competition for the slots.

I'd go over the rest of your post but then I realised it was simply calling BS on pretty much everything the Ogres have going for them.

Ok sure sure I am a hateful- however!!

I stand by that it is absurd that the Ironblaster can move & shoot when many other forms of artillery cannot:
Hell cannon, aracknorock with the spider webbing catapult, & all other forms of artillery who are screwed on the 1st turn of meeting engagement If they come on as reserves.

[Scammel]

I won't deny that the Ironblaster is a very, very good unit - it is - but it's also a rare choice, meaning you'll very rarely see more than two, it's just as prone to blowing up as other cannon, has some very nasty misfire results (taking two of them isn't as much optimisation as a necessity to combat misfires) and whilst it's tough in combat it has pitiful Ld and so is hugely prone to panic, effects that force tests or anything that can bring even a modicum of static res. It's a toughie to deal with, but I don't think it's ever going to dominate as much as the Hydra or Hellpit.

[minionboy]

Overpowered since they first came out!!

But for the modern ogre book:

Okay, lets!

Wizards with armour- BS

Seriously, because Ogres are the only guys that can do this, right? WoC casters come with a 4+ armor, no need to buy them magic armor to stack, they can even get a 2+ save just by buying the enchanted shield and still have plenty of points left over to buy a 3+ ward save, and a good arcane item.

who really needs lore of maw when BRB Lores so much better. How do primitive ogres have access to more magic than tomb kings and vamps?-BS

To get a BRB lore, you need to buy a second wizard, which as ogres, doesn't exactly come cheap, at least 100 points for a level 1, who isn't going to contribute anything meaningful to your army, so 135 for a level 2, plus any magic items you want to give him.

The entire army is immune to stomps, thunder stomps, & terror-BS
( who cares about stomping gnoblars get cheaper command than goblins-BS)

They're definitely not the only army that is immune to stomps, thunder stomps and terror. Brets are immune to stomps as well, so is any cavalry force. How about a WoC army led by Throgg? No stomping there. Also, they're not immune entirely to terror, terror causers still cause fear to ogres, as opposed to both undead and daemons, which are totally immune.

Oh, forgot the gnoblar thing, gnoblars only get a cheaper champion, and their champion can't defend any characters in the army from a challenge, so even at 5 points, it's still over cost.

Dragon banner of doom -!! Do any o the new books or old have anything to compare??-BS

Cool, they have a nice banner for 50 points, that makes them OP because nobody has cool expensive banners... Like the banner of Sorcery, or the World Dragon, or chaos's super cheap perma frenzy banner that works on mounts.

Man eaters....WOW. Each maneater can be outfitted differently????
To shamelessly plug ogrewargaming, the man had a unit of 8-10 man eaters with the front rank extra hand weapons & back rank with great weapons- stubborn? & swift stride. Insanely powerful. Add buffs for unstoppable. not BS but darn if it does not give me a strong case of hate poisoning.

All that for the low price of 615 points, plus command and banner! OMG all these super cheap good units! Seriously, it's nearly a quarter of his army, and as such, it works like any other death star. Stick a great eagle in front of it.

Ironblasters.....slaps the face of the Hellcannon who cannot pivot to shoot, move & shoot and has a nasty misfire. Not a single artillery piece of the dwarf armory can match it for ability or reliability. -BS

Um, except for every piece of dwarf artillery? You've heard of engineers, right? Oh, except dwarfs can re-roll both dice.

Saber tusk...single drops??-BS

And lastly, no other army has single drops? Certainly not my lizards with my single salamanders, or my wood elves with my single great eagles, or my beasts with my single razorgor and cheap 5-man harpy units.

Overall, you need to get over it, your list is BS and nothing about it makes Ogres OP, and in many cases, there are other armies which have it better. Ultimately, this comes off as a list of complaints by someone that hasn't played much, or hasn't taken the time to learn how to fight against different types of armies. I don't intend to be rude, but it's just fact. Ogres can be beat, they're not any more OP than other armies, and if they were so OP, you'd expect to see them placing well in tournaments, which they just don't do (that ETC crap doesn't count).

[Von Wibble]

I think what might make Ogres seem overpowered is that they are very good anti infantry and anti horde. They struggle against cavalry and general alpha strike type armies because they still in general cost too much to benefit from steadfast, and a lot of their units lack the armour penetration (and WS) to cause enough wounds to win combats vs 2+ save troops (cmopared to the damage they take).

But of course such things are not taken as often in 8th as hordes of infantry tend to beat them. Therefore they look more powerful than they are.

But there are a couple of things they shouldn't have dnoe - Ironblasters should be move or fire (or 30-40 points more) and sabretusks should be unit size 5-10 imo.

[Scammel]

I'm hazarding a guess, but I think the reason that the IB is move-and-fire in the first instance is that otherwise it'd be a static element in an army that is anything but - the entire army is capable of moving 12 inches a turn with the exception of Gnobs, and I literally can't think of anything that wants to sit still except in a niche shooty build.

[DeathlessDraich]

In fact when I play aganist them with my orcs I feel like it's an auto-win for me in most cases.

True to some extent. Easier tactically for Orcs to win but an auto-win ... that Ogre player needs to look at how he plays.

The problem with ogres is that these toys add up quickly and you are left with a very small army. So when they come up against anything with punch they're screwed.

True but once again, only to a certain extent - not just punch - since you play with O&G, you will know.

They realistically have some of the cheapest troop to stat costs in the game, cheapest chaff, the best shooting, some really dumb magic items, essentially they can play almost any playstyle as they have every tool to their disposal. If you look historically at the really good armies in the past of 6th, 7th ed. and first few years of 8th ed., whomever has the cheapest, and most variety of options has a leg up on their counterparts.

You've made some valid points albeit phrased as hyperbole.

I'll just comment on some aspects:
- not "'some' of the cheapest" but to be more exact - 2 (or 3) of the cheapest - 1 of the cheapest chaff and 1 of the cheapest troop to stats cost, as you put it.
In few weeks time, I will be presenting a more complete and mathematically prepared list ... at a cost!.

- Playstyle - that has changed. The 7th ed MSU lists that won tournaments no longer works. Present style ... well now ... looking at 8th ed tactics ... well ...

Ogres are very strong, this is true. Overpowered, maybe with tailored lists. I have never lost to an al comers ogre list with my wood elves. As soon as he starts tailoring the game looks like this.

Mage sniped, his turn one. Shoot at his ironguts maybe kill a few. Mournfangs hit me, game over. Now that not very fun for anyone now is it.

Ogres are very good in combat so long as they can attack before any elite combat troops like temple guard or bestigors. If ogres attack first they do good, if they attack last they take some damage.

WE vs Ogres - tough game for WE with the right all-comers list - I don't use anything else for all my armies - which are - well ...all of them! Congratulations on winning with WE. I know of only 1 player who plays well with them and won all of his first dozen or so 8th ed games. Lots of fancy manoeuvring needed by WE certainly.

Mournfang? Unfortunately WE does not or cannot feasibly have, a unit to deal with them one on one.

Man eaters....WOW. Each maneater can be outfitted differently????
To shamelessly plug ogrewargaming, the man had a unit of 8-10 man eaters with the front rank extra hand weapons & back rank with great weapons- stubborn? & swift stride. Insanely powerful. Add buffs for unstoppable. not BS but darn if it does not give me a strong case of hate poisoning.

Hmm seems as if you don't enjoy playing against Ogres? 1/4 of the army points given to Maneaters - wouldn't that be an inviting target to destroy? ; Stubborn and Swiftstride are not the best choices for Maneater's Been there rule - such a Maneater unit should be manageably handled by many armies. Which do you play with? I could suggest some ways you could beat them if you wouldn't mind me to.

[Scammel]

An excellent post from the Ogre Stronghold concerning Ogre weaknesses and the metagame:

1) General Vulnerability to Shadow Magic-
Almost half of the armies in the game have access to Lore of Shadow, including most of the stronger ones. It is taken by nearly every army with access to it. Three of the spells in the lore are essentially game enders for Ogres, and the rest are not particularly pleasant. Plus it can do its work from outside effective hellheart range. Any army with serious weaknesses to the most common and powerful lore of magic is not really in the top tier. Lizards get a pass on this because the combination of Becalming and two scrolls lets them defend it better than anyone. Ogres are basically hoping for a 5 roll on the heart (or a dumb opponent) for a one turn reprieve.

2) Leadership issues-
One thing the best armies have in common is strong leadership. Skaven depend a little more on their general, but they can reach LD10 with a wizard without resorting to a magic banner all over their army. Lizardmen have cold blooded. Dark Elves have LD so good that they can afford to send their general away from their entire army. The need to cluster our forces around a single point greatly limits us, as well.

3) Abundance of Underpriced units-
Even if you buy the idea that Ironblasters are undercosted (I don't), thats one unit in the entire book. Dark Elves, Lizards, and Skaven are chock full of massively undepriced items in every part of their army, especially in their core selections. The basic Slaan is cheaper than a naked L4 Slaughtermaster, with a built in discipline, 4++, and ton of special rules. Warp Lightning Cannons are vastly better than the Ironblaster and are very cheap. The Hydra is but one of a bunch of powerful units that are inexpensive in the Dark Elf book. Ogre's do not really have anything like that going on in their book.

4) Dirty Tricks-
We have the Hellheart and Deathfist (which is debatable for usefulness). Take a casual stroll through the tactics threads and you find a veritable cornicopia of combos and shenanigans that the top three armies have at their disposal, in all phases of the game. Our best tricks involve the magic phase, mostly in defense, which while good is not in the same ballpark as Sac Dagger, Skitterleap Orb Toss, or even the ubiquitous extra dice casting loremaster Slaan.

5) Matchup issues-
We do well against Lizardmen and alright against Skaven due to some peculiar matchup quirks. We hit the wall against Warriors of Chaos and struggle against some of the weaker armies out there. While Beastmen are a rare bird at tournaments, Dark Elves and Warriors of Chaos certainly not. Even if the chosenstar is not in the mix, basic Chaos Warriors of any stripe just pulverize Ogres and they are one of the most popular armies at tournaments. Skaven, Dark Elves, and Lizardmen primarily worry about running into each other.

[TsukeFox]

@DeathlessDriach

Not having a problem fighting against Maneaters-only watched such a build on YouTube. & it wrecked worlds. The swiftstride just increases the odds of getting an "ogre bull (?) charge." ie more dice rolled better chance for the 10+ on the charge.

I was just pointing out an awesome build, that short of Warriors, that not many people have (and the warriors will soon loose it.)

And hatefully jealous-!!

[Da GoBBo]

The problem with ogres is that these toys add up quickly and you are left with a very small army. So when they come up against anything with punch they're screwed.

From you of all people I really don't understand this comment. As a firm believer of spamming big units you must agree that Ogres do that really well. A standardsized army can include several hordes. 54 wounds, 54 attacks, 6 stomps, 6-18 impacthits ---> that is the equivalent of 78-102 attacks per horde on the charge (of which 12-36 strike before combat commences), 66 attacks when not charging (but assuming the charge isn't unfair). Ogres also have the magic to back it up. To be honest I think an ogre player playing your kind of warhammer will completely cream your O&G.

It is not a matchup I would personally like to see though.

edit: drop one horde, still have some left and that gives plenty of points for toys. I agree they can't have em all, whether you play with hordes or not.

[Mid'ean]

Having come back last weekend from the Colonial GT and playing Ogres they are hardly OP. I fought against DoC, O&G, TK, Chaos dwarves and all my games were close and fun. I wasn't blowing thru enemy units nor was I getting blown thru. Other armies have options/units to use against Ogres weaknesses. You just need to apply them at the right place and the right time. Just like playing any other race.

[Texhnolyze]

An excellent post from the Ogre Stronghold concerning Ogre weaknesses and the metagame:

1) General Vulnerability to Shadow Magic-
Almost half of the armies in the game have access to Lore of Shadow, including most of the stronger ones. It is taken by nearly every army with access to it. Three of the spells in the lore are essentially game enders for Ogres, and the rest are not particularly pleasant. Plus it can do its work from outside effective hellheart range. Any army with serious weaknesses to the most common and powerful lore of magic is not really in the top tier. Lizards get a pass on this because the combination of Becalming and two scrolls lets them defend it better than anyone. Ogres are basically hoping for a 5 roll on the heart (or a dumb opponent) for a one turn reprieve.

2) Leadership issues-
One thing the best armies have in common is strong leadership. Skaven depend a little more on their general, but they can reach LD10 with a wizard without resorting to a magic banner all over their army. Lizardmen have cold blooded. Dark Elves have LD so good that they can afford to send their general away from their entire army. The need to cluster our forces around a single point greatly limits us, as well.

3) Abundance of Underpriced units-
Even if you buy the idea that Ironblasters are undercosted (I don't), thats one unit in the entire book. Dark Elves, Lizards, and Skaven are chock full of massively undepriced items in every part of their army, especially in their core selections. The basic Slaan is cheaper than a naked L4 Slaughtermaster, with a built in discipline, 4++, and ton of special rules. Warp Lightning Cannons are vastly better than the Ironblaster and are very cheap. The Hydra is but one of a bunch of powerful units that are inexpensive in the Dark Elf book. Ogre's do not really have anything like that going on in their book.

4) Dirty Tricks-
We have the Hellheart and Deathfist (which is debatable for usefulness). Take a casual stroll through the tactics threads and you find a veritable cornicopia of combos and shenanigans that the top three armies have at their disposal, in all phases of the game. Our best tricks involve the magic phase, mostly in defense, which while good is not in the same ballpark as Sac Dagger, Skitterleap Orb Toss, or even the ubiquitous extra dice casting loremaster Slaan.

5) Matchup issues-
We do well against Lizardmen and alright against Skaven due to some peculiar matchup quirks. We hit the wall against Warriors of Chaos and struggle against some of the weaker armies out there. While Beastmen are a rare bird at tournaments, Dark Elves and Warriors of Chaos certainly not. Even if the chosenstar is not in the mix, basic Chaos Warriors of any stripe just pulverize Ogres and they are one of the most popular armies at tournaments. Skaven, Dark Elves, and Lizardmen primarily worry about running into each other.

I find it very fun when ogre players say "there is nothing wrong with Ogres", and then the only thing I find is "compared to Skaven, Dark elves, Lizardmen"... they are in the top 4 most broken books of 7th AND 8th edition...

Try comparing ogres to the new books that has been released, O&G, Tombkings, VC and Empire... I think you will find that ogres are the cream of the 8th ed books ^^