In my area - players seem to pick an awful lot of chaff, or a an army based on lots of small units. Consequently, whilst Ogres seem to counter our Skaven players, they're not fairing too well against many others.
In my area - players seem to pick an awful lot of chaff, or a an army based on lots of small units. Consequently, whilst Ogres seem to counter our Skaven players, they're not fairing too well against many others.
Not surprising.Originally Posted by Texhnolyze
A. 20% of your players were Ogres.
B. Ogres are barely comped : ETC comps every deathstar of the game, but what exactly is 9 ironguts + 4 characters + rune maw + crown of command ?
C. ETC nerfs everything that could scare that unit : multi-wound warmachines, death and shadow magic, bigger and better deathstars ...
I'm a competitive Ogre player and I can tell you that my usual tournament list is absolutely not hampered by those restrictions, while everything I fear to face is.
Looks like there were also 17 Ogre players, but even so it sounds like there were a lot on the top tables. It looks like some of the participants are wondering if they need stronger composition or if what I recently stated, that people just are not building to account for Ogres, is the cause of so many at the top. One thing I did notice, there was no 'one build' that ruled the 5 top ten placers. Each army was different and while they all shared certain things some had more shooting, some less, some were lead by a Tyrant, some by a Slaughtermaster, and so on. Nice bit of differences to them so they are not all a netlist build which I find to be nice. The army doesn't have one or two meta lists that are dominating but several different ones. That leads me to believe it is more that people are not adjusted yet to Ogre armies in general.
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ETC, nerfed the things that could stop ogres, People don't build to trash ogres, and nobody really took the aries that are hard counters to ogres. Im surprised more ogres didn't do better.
They did, another one was in the top ten, but apparently that Tournament had crazy painting scores, plus some list were submitted wrong due to confusion with the pack, so took another points hit.
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Ogres would've won it if the player hadn't submitted an illegal list.
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I have no real opinion on Ogres yet... however your "logic" does offend me
A. No it was 17% which is not 20%. Even if it was that equates to 2 out of the top ten, not 5. For it to be "not surprising" 50% of the players would of been playing ogres
B. Your not actually saying anything of worth here.
C. There are plenty of your first two examples. Lists should in no way have to go way out of their way to counter ogres, if they do it would be indicative of a problem with OK's.
Aside from that, the main argument I see here kinda runs like "ogres don't kill people, people kill people" and that line of argument is one of the most idiotic ever conceived.
To borrow from Eddie Izzard... "standing there going bang isn't going to kill too many people is it..."
Lists should in no way have to go way out of their way to counter ogres, if they do it would be indicative of a problem with OK's.
Aside from that, the main argument I see here kinda runs like "ogres don't kill people, people kill people" and that line of argument is one of the most idiotic ever conceived.
You are wrong on our first point. You should have to go out of your way to couunter things, it changes the meta makes you think and keeps things fresh. I have too keep in mind Savae orcs and Empire guns and ake a list that is "All comers" meaning I have an answer for everything.
your second point is worse, guns do kill people, and so do ogres. Both are faaar less dangerous to people that know how to handle them. The issue is people dn't know how to handle them and refuse to learn. Play the no win games of 7th edition vs daemons, THAT is overpowered, Ogres are just a really good army, massive difference.
You miss the point and, in fact, make mine for me. People all ready design all comers lists, to assume that they don't/haven't considered OK is arrogant. What is more likely is that it is impossible/incredibly difficult to design an all comers list that can deal with OK and not gimp itself from other lists.
You've failed to understand the point again. The "overpoweredness" of previous armies is irrelevant. No, the issue with firearms is some people are actually stupid enough to think it is a good idea for people to own them... however that is noting to do with any conversation we are having here, the point was to illustrate the self delusion people will undergo because they don't want their "toy" taken away.your second point is worse, guns do kill people, and so do ogres. Both are faaar less dangerous to people that know how to handle them. The issue is people dn't know how to handle them and refuse to learn. Play the no win games of 7th edition vs daemons, THAT is overpowered, Ogres are just a really good army, massive difference.
The results from that tourney suggest that by merely taking an OK list you have a 1 in 3 chance of making the top 10.
On a personal note I'll admit as a GW games player since the mid 80's I find the whole concept of OK's an abomination and think the army should be consigned to the same place the squats went, but that has nothing to do with my opinion on the shoddy arguments used here.
Frankly those tournament results speak for themselves and make a pretty solid case. 17% of the armies taken and 50% of the top ten, 30% of the total number of OK players there made it into the top ten....
I don't think people have truly adjusted their lists to account for ogres. I mean just ask people what their plan to deal with mournfang is, and how they're going to account for the hell heart. If they give some nonsensical answer than you know they haven't adjusted for their lists at all. For some people adjusting will just be a having a plan for them, no real changes to their list. For others they're going to have to change up their lists as they don't have any good way to deal with ogres. What I expect is to see an increase in the number of people running lore of metal, as its a great counter for all the monstrous cav that's appearing in lists.
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And yet, with saying so... Personal opinions like this kind of make people suspect bias.
I'm an OK player, an avid one at that. Overpowered? No. Ironblasters and Mournfangs are heavily criticized but in my eyes it's simply that they are fairly unique. They haven't been around long so people have yet to find ways to counter them. Ogres have found a niche market, they were largely ignored in 7th but now pose different problems in 8th after their re-vamp. With regard to Ogres being an 'abomination' as a race, I like the fact that they are one of the races who actually draw on history, or should I say 'prehistory'. I've always enjoyed the earlier Cenozoic and Mesozoic era having completed a BSc in Geography so the concept of Ogres is pretty decent with the Thundertusk, Sabretusk, Stonehorn etc...
Moreover, I'm so horribly slow at painting that I find armies that are high on unit/point cost easier to get on the field in quick time. I'm not suggesting that this is a major reason for the rise in Ogre players but it certainly helps.
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I wouldn't say overpowered but I would say too good. I think partially the reason why a lot of people have yet to find ways to counter them is the fact that most armies don't have a lot in their arsenal to do it with any reliability. With Mornfang (using my High Elves). I have a turn or two to deal with any Mornfang my opponant brings to the table. Shooting doesn't cut it (both Longbows and Bolt Throwers), Magic is hit and miss (need to roll up Pit or the like, need to get it off, have to irrisistable to prevent my opponant scrolling it etc).I'm an OK player, an avid one at that. Overpowered? No. Ironblasters and Mournfangs are heavily criticized but in my eyes it's simply that they are fairly unique.
About the only unit that can take a Mornfang change and win is a big unit of White Lions while the best tool for breaking Mornfang on the charge are multiple Lion Chariots. As my Ogre opponant has pointed out though that both of these units are slower than Mornfang and he knows that those are about the only units that can do the job in my list so he can avoid them. About the only really solid ability in the list if the redirecting/charge blocking ability of Great Eagles to give me an extra turn or two to try to pull something off.
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If I was commenting on if they should exist and if I like the fluff etc. However I am not, I am commenting on the argument used to counter statistics, which was obvious, self delusional nonsense.
Personally I would of like to have seen an Cathay/Araby/Nippon/Ind army but no... suddenly out of nowhere and unasked for comes Ogre Kingdoms. Sabretusks are cool, Mournfangs are cool, gorgers are cool... hell most of the orge army is "cool"... but the concept of an army of Ogres is bollo... fluff gone very bad.
Oh and ogres that have somehow mastered gunpowder weaponry.... blurghhhhhh... not even mentioning scouting ogres /puke.
If they had mashed that concept with Chaos Dwarfs? I think that would of been excellent. Chaos Dwarf overlords with there Ogre enforcers and slave populations of gnoblars etc. Anyway, I ramble.
Last edited by BooMeRLiNSKi; 08-05-2012 at 23:12.
Lore of metal> Mornfangs, No armor save attacks>mornfangs. Big blocks of troops<Mornfangs. You an not Take them into account and lose. That's your choice, I've give them Top teir, but not broken. Not if the list Beastmen as a bad match up.
Well you've commented on existence and fluff now
Mastered gunpowder weaponry? Do you even have the OK army book? Ogres haven't mastered any such thing, they don't even know how to construct weaponry like that. The closest thing they can get is the ramshackle scraplauncher nonsense that the Gnoblars mash together. All Ogres did was steal the cannons after they killed the sky-titans, strapped them to the back of the rhinoxen and jammed some gunpowder down it. The fact that the weapons are so sophisticated comes from being built by the elder giants themselves. Any old mug can pull a trigger and aim a weapon. Leadbelchers are the same. Their weapons are stolen imperial cannons with random combat weaponry jammed inside for shrapnel.
I do agree that Cathay/Araby/Nippon/Ind would have made more sense back in 2004 but there are already numerous man sized armies available. Why wouldn't GW try a niche product and something slightly different? In hindsight, it was a wise decision considering how popular Ogres have become.
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I really don't know why people are so worried about mournfangs. As previously posted, they are neither offensivly nor defensivly stronger then other heavy cav, like chaos knights or blood knights. They are better in some situations, but worse in others.
The ironblaster is, for most purposes, a expensive cannon.
The thing is that Ogres are a strong army, but not over the top. As a OnG player I have no problem dealing with them.
Mournfang have a much greater combat effect than say an equal amount of Chaos Knights. Mournfang as a unit is a tough nut, but the addition to take a 50 point banner in the Dragonhide banner, the addition of M8, and a +2, ++6 with their combat power to boot. . . makes them a ill-concived unit.
Don't even get me start on the I.B, the thing is a joke. Currently, it's the only warmachine in the game that can "illegally" move, and protect itself (other than a Steamtank that is combat oriented in the first place). No other *edit* "actual" warhamchines (ie; Cannons, Stone Throwers) have T6 and 4 wounds in C.C. All of the standard warmachine tactics go out the window when fighting them, and essentially become a unit you either have a answer for *edit* like withe anti-battery fire, or ignore it completely *yeah Elves of all kind and low-tier A.Bs.
In general the Ogre book is undercosted (Ogres for that point cost?) for what it does, and provides, and was ill-conceived (come on guys Saber tusks min +1? You're better than that) in many aspects, though it does fullfill the Noob-General's sating hunger of RUNFORWRDZANDK!LLZ! without the reliance of magical support, "heavy tactics" and or cohesive list strategy.
Conclusively, a player whether in a tournament or a normal game shouldn't have to "prepare" his list for Ogres. You want to have strategies in place, go ahead, but when a list has a unit/charcter dedicated to just Ogres (or any armybook for that matter) then the A.B in my mind and many others is it's overpowered.
P.S: A rise in Ogre players is in correlation to the ease of playing and winning with a such army. Whence Demons, D.E, V.C in 7th.
Last edited by Trains_Get_Robbed; 09-05-2012 at 07:39.
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Would not a generic dark elf dread lord, with crimson death, blood armour and pendant of khaleth be sufficient to counter most lists and give ogres pause for thought..... Especially backed by a cauldron, in a unit of corsairs w pair hand weapons and sea standard, w bsb and hydra banner..........
Makes for a rather optimised unit, that can be fitted accordingly, and the charachters can be used elsewhere if needed.
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i would just like to point out that as a empire cannon costs 120 points the ironblaster is majorly under costed as it can move, is a better actual cannon, has a forgiving misfire table and pretty much compensates for all the failings of normal artillery.
You don't have to make an anti Ogre army, although it is a valid option. The ironblaster is a chariot thus can't pivot to fire like other war machines and finds a hard counter in the lore of heavens, and can't fight very well at all. Mournfang find a hard counter in Lore of metal or attacks that ignore Armor saves. If you take a lvl 4 of life death or shadow a bsb, and hordes, while ignoring the fact that you have all the answers you need in front of you don't complain about it. I do however find it odd people complain about trying new things to fight an Ogre unit but don't bat an eye about adding things (Magic weapons) to take on ethereal units.
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