Ogres Over Powered? (Am I missing something?)

[Mercules]

Oh come on... you're better than that. You know full well that on average the skill level between different players playing different armies is going to be much of a muchness. Unless they are a "powergamer"

No, I don't actually know that. I don't think I am head and shoulders above the next player, in fact I know I am worse than many. I know that a lot of my 7th edition wins were due to people not understanding my army or how it plays and me understanding it intimately. This is what I mean when I say that some of those players could place despite a book that was considered bottom tier. I do know that when I picked up a non-ogre army I was kicking tail because playing Ogres forced me to think about things a bit differently and pay attention to my mistakes as I couldn't make any and still hope to win.

Now those people who were loyal to Ogres and could place despite being at what was considered a disadvantage going in are still playing Ogres and really the army hasn't changed much, it just had prices lowered, limitations lifted, and access to more tools to do the job. So a strong core understanding of how the army plays has carried through. The learning curve from the old book to new was about nil for most Ogres players I have talked to.

At the same time dealing with an army that is ALL Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry except for a couple cheap support troops, is a fairly new thing for many players. Dealing with units that can shoot ok and do ok in combat is new to people. I've talked to players that have stated that Pistols on ME and Leadbelchers are not good. Their reasoning is you are paying for something you are not using as either you are shooting and not using the CC ability or the reverse is true. They are used to troops that focus in one area and miss the subtle point that Leadbelchers are basically naked Ogres in a fight. They forget that Impact Hits and Stomps might swing a combat. These are all little mistakes but as you know in competitive play, every little mistake a chance for your opponent.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Is that still true though, Merc?

I don't disagree with all that you have said, but it's nine months on now. Ogres have rocketed from one of the rarest armies at tournaments to one of the most common.

The tournament scene responded pretty quickly to the daemon release. Just like Ogres, when daemons came out the loyal pure daemons had no real learning curve, everything just got better. I don't think it took the community 9 months to get to grips with the issues with daemons.

Knee-jerk reactions to a new army book usually only last until the next army book is out. Two army books later I don't think we can really claim learning curve issues.

[Kahadras]

The last time there was this level of complaining about a new army was Skaven and they were a seriously top tier army. It's really hard to accept that your army that's been long-underpowered is not just competitive but actually overpowered. I've been there before with my beloved Slaanesh daemon army. There's only so long you can put your fingers in your ears.

However it's also clear we don't have a daemon situation again. I don't think there's any dispute that Ogres are top of the 8th ed heap right now, but at the same time the 8th ed books are a lot better than the crappy situation that existed in 7th. At least while daemons, skaven and lizards have their old books, Ogres aren't going to be OP.

I suppose it would be best comparing Ogres to the other 8th ed books. Hopefully GW will phase out the more 'excessive' of the 7th ed books over the next couple of years and we will have to wait and see what happens in the next few big tournaments. If a lot of people are bringing Ogres to tournaments and a lot of people are placing highly with Ogres then I feel that people are bringing Orges to a tournament on the basis that their army is going to do well. Same reason we saw a lot of Daemon armies back in the day. I really don't see Ogres winning more because players have laboured with an underpowered army book for years or that somehow other tournament players aren't used to playing against Ogres.

Again I'm not saying that Ogres are over powered, just very good.

Kahadras

Kahadras

[Mercules]

Just like Ogres, when daemons came out the loyal pure daemons had no real learning curve, everything just got better. I don't think it took the community 9 months to get to grips with the issues with daemons.

Daemons changed hugely. They went from being combined with Beasts and Warriors to being their own book with Heralds and other changes.


Aside from that none of you are listening to what I am saying.

The Ogre army does not play like anything else. Imagine if Brets get a new book that made all cavalry armies with mobile siege engines and shooting on top of viable units of knights. It is not going to play like Infantry-centric armies.

On top of that despite tournament players possibly adapting quickly (I'm not convinced of that) the Metagame has not really changed. I still see a LOT of army builds bringing GW wielding lightly armored troops... the Sort of things Mournfangs roll over. These things still work just fine against the other Horded up GW blocks, or blocks of slaves, or the other meta-themed armies that are still working well against them, but are playing an Ogres game. I still see battle reports where the tournament scene is still using 4 pieces of terrain placed out of the way leaving the central part of the board free and clear.


We may have been out for 9 months, but this thread started in April, just over a month ago with, "Am I missing something? Ogres overpowered? Is this true?" so yeah, some people are just coming around to the realization that Ogres are a force to be considered.

[bigbear bailey]

Really the only things I think anyone really have a problem with are as follows.

chaff is to mini max
iron blater makes other artillary look horrible
mournfang
hiding units with chrs

Out of all of those I really hate the last one. I can deal with killing anything else but I really thing there should be a rule that says you can swing on models in the back rank if the front is all heros. I honestly don't know how I would fight it (as one guy did it to another here and we basically told him he would be the next religious martir if he did so again).

All said and done, I don't think they are over powered. When daemons came out in 7th it nearly killed the game for most people I know. While the fatties are giving people head aches, I don't see mass waves of rage quit.

[BooMeRLiNSKi]

No, I don't actually know that.

Then you should. Playing O.K's has not given you or anybody else any extra, or special, tactical insight into the game except for how to play Ogres. I don't even think they were overly bad last edition, but even if they were, playing as the underdog doesn't give you special powers. It'd be nice to think that, but it isn't reality.

The Ogre army does not play like anything else.

Nothing does.

Additionally you seem to be suggesting that the way to beat mournfangs would be to HW and shield up... personally I am not sure this is sound advice against troops throwing a load of high str hits your way who can have a 2+ armor save with descent toughness, but that's just me...

[Lord Inquisitor]

Daemons changed hugely. They went from being combined with Beasts and Warriors to being their own book with Heralds and other changes.

If you played mono-daemons, particularly the Storm of Chaos daemons, it wasn't that big a change.

Aside from that none of you are listening to what I am saying.

The Ogre army does not play like anything else. Imagine if Brets get a new book that made all cavalry armies with mobile siege engines and shooting on top of viable units of knights. It is not going to play like Infantry-centric armies.

On top of that despite tournament players possibly adapting quickly (I'm not convinced of that) the Metagame has not really changed. I still see a LOT of army builds bringing GW wielding lightly armored troops... the Sort of things Mournfangs roll over. These things still work just fine against the other Horded up GW blocks, or blocks of slaves, or the other meta-themed armies that are still working well against them, but are playing an Ogres game. I still see battle reports where the tournament scene is still using 4 pieces of terrain placed out of the way leaving the central part of the board free and clear.

I just don't agree. Suddenly every gaming group or tournament has an ogre player or two. Never mind all the other armies that can field MI-heavy builds like Beastmen or Warriors. Sure, it'll take a bit of getting used to but 9 months later? I think we're waiting for the "oh I see how to beat them not that hard after all" shoe to drop and I'm not sure it's coming. Just as with daemons people were making very much the same arguments but the most telling result is if people are flocking to that army for competitive play then it sounds more like making excuses for an army that really is better than the others. That's not meant as a dig at you, Merc, but it does seem those making the "you just need to learn how to deal with them" argument are predominantly ogre players.

That said, assuming that if people gear up specifically to beat ogres and it works, that still doesn't necessarily mean ogres are balanced. T10 steam tanks were an example of an unbalanced unit, forcing everyone to find a way to deal with them. A balanced list just couldn't in most cases so people would include their "steam tank defence" whatever that might be. Sometimes it's a good thing to shake things up but if it ends up "gear to specifically beat army X or you lose" that's too far.

We may have been out for 9 months, but this thread started in April, just over a month ago with, "Am I missing something? Ogres overpowered? Is this true?" so yeah, some people are just coming around to the realization that Ogres are a force to be considered.

Maybe, but as I said for the first few months, certainly until the next army book or two comes out, I would just disregard claims that the flavour-of-the-month army is overpowered. After that, I start listening.

Out of all of those I really hate the last one. I can deal with killing anything else but I really thing there should be a rule that says you can swing on models in the back rank if the front is all heros. I honestly don't know how I would fight it (as one guy did it to another here and we basically told him he would be the next religious martir if he did so again).

Considered trying to beat the build rather than just bullying the guy into not playing a given build? A Sword of Anti-Heroes and an Other Tricksters Shard with a well-timed challenge can really mess up a deathstar and there are a number of units which can really mess up a deathstar, particularly in a hammer + anvil approach.

Not that the deathstar is necessarily the most fun to play against and it is certainly effective but just saying it isn't necessarily game-breaking.

All said and done, I don't think they are over powered. When daemons came out in 7th it nearly killed the game for most people I know. While the fatties are giving people head aches, I don't see mass waves of rage quit.

Agreed. But it does set a benchmark for 8th's standard of "top tier list".

[Mercules]

Then you should. Playing O.K's has not given you or anybody else any extra, or special, tactical insight into the game except for how to play Ogres. I don't even think they were overly bad last edition, but even if they were, playing as the underdog doesn't give you special powers. It'd be nice to think that, but it isn't reality.

Read what I said. Playing as the underdog forced me to pay attention to my game because often one mistake was all I could really make and often I couldn't get away with that. Is that a special power? No. It does mean that I tended to not be sloppy or make assumptions that some other players sometimes would make, because they could and still recover from it.

Nothing does.

True, but there is a lot more similarity between a To3 human trooper and To3 Elf trooper compared to a To4 3 wound Ogre trooper. Each army has their nook but there are some that are a lot more similar to each other than others. Daemons had some power in army wide Ward Saves... still do, but in the end they are still Infantry based in their core troops.

Additionally you seem to be suggesting that the way to beat mournfangs would be to HW and shield up... personally I am not sure this is sound advice against troops throwing a load of high str hits your way who can have a 2+ armor save with descent toughness, but that's just me...

I suggested no such thing. You suggested I suggested it. Instead I said lower armor save GW units that can be stomped are not the thing to use against Mournfang.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Read what I said. Playing as the underdog forced me to pay attention to my game because often one mistake was all I could really make and often I couldn't get away with that. Is that a special power? No. It does mean that I tended to not be sloppy or make assumptions that some other players sometimes would make, because they could and still recover from it.

Right. The analogy I like is that taking a top tier vs low tier army is that it's like playing a game on hard mode vs easy mode. Hard mode doesn't make you magically a better player. You'll get your face smashed in a lot more. But in order to beat the game on hard mode you need to practice and get really good at the game. Getting a powerful book after a really crummy one is like having the sequel to a game come out where you played the first one for ages on hard mode. You aren't necessarily going to be better in the long term than someone who has just picked up the game and is trying it out on easy mode, but there's probably a lower learning curve for you.

[Mercules]

Right. The analogy I like is that taking a top tier vs low tier army is that it's like playing a game on hard mode vs easy mode. Hard mode doesn't make you magically a better player. You'll get your face smashed in a lot more. But in order to beat the game on hard mode you need to practice and get really good at the game. Getting a powerful book after a really crummy one is like having the sequel to a game come out where you played the first one for ages on hard mode. You aren't necessarily going to be better in the long term than someone who has just picked up the game and is trying it out on easy mode, but there's probably a lower learning curve for you.

True, but going with your analogy, if someone only ever plays Easy Mode.... How good can they really get? They can be sloppy and still get through the game and they don't learn the finesse things you are forced to learn playing on Hard or sometimes even Normal mode.

[Lord Inquisitor]

The analogy doesn't bear scrutiny too hard (the difficulty setting is really the caliber of the computer "opponent") but such complaints have been often leveled about powergamer armies and not least the ogres. Nevertheless, you can learn to play a game in "easy mode" and it's not to say that a player with an "easy mode" army is necessarily a bad player. Just that someone with a "hard mode" army that wins consistently is probably a good player.

[Sexiest_hero]

I still think Ogres will ee the "Nob Bikers" of this edition. If any of you are 40k players you remember the Rush to make and play nob bikers and how they were the big bad this or that. Then the meta shifted after a year (way too long), and they Became a forgotten footnote. Soon as people realize Ogres HAVE shifted the meta things will even out. Kinda how flying purple sun mage did. Remember him and how he ruined whole armies, till people stopped lining troops up for the slaugher.

[Texhnolyze]

Ogres will be the new Doubble hydra Dark Elves, dubble abom skaven, Deamons lynch pin. When all the books are redone, ogres will be the most hated and comped book out there.

/end of prophecy

[Ghremdal]

I'll be happy about the state of balance of warhammer if when all the 8th ed books are out, ogres are considered OP.

[woodster17]

I'll be happy about the state of balance of warhammer if when all the 8th ed books are out, ogres are considered OP.

Get the feeling it's kind of unlikely that ALL the books will be re-done before the end of 8th. Particularly with the 2 Hobbit films interjecting 6th edition 40K too.

[Sexiest_hero]

yeah if mournfangs and Iron blasters are the Cheese of the Cheese,8th edition will be the best ever. Nobody sees Ogres and goes where here is a auto loss. Not like VC, skaven Lizardmen daemons and Dark elves (all 7th ed) used to be.

[Kurnous the Hunter]

I'm going to call it. OK is an abomination birthed of desperation to help flog new miniatures. I quit Warhammer in disgust when they first came out (many things were irking me, that was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak).

I have come to accept them but the 8th Edition is Fn stupid. It was a poorly thought out concept to start with and very bland, so what did they do in 8th Edition? Introduce increasing crazy/stupid units that make little sense from a fluff perspective or a balance perspective.

The Ogres are already high in all the hard stat's so I felt it okay if they had weaknesses in shooting, magic and maneuver and to an extent monsters and armour. So what did 8th Edition do? Minimize most if not all these weakness and further exacerbate their strengths. Scouting Ogres? Seriously? they guy who introduced them should be hung, drawn and quartered. Then there is Deathfisting and other shenanigans totally screwing with opposition magic. Then why not give them some extra speed and insane killing power with mournfangs...oh and lets give them cannons so they can kill anything that might meet them strength for strength (Other monsters) and and also lets give them the option to have great Armour and just as if that is not good enough give em the 6++ with it as well on their best unit. OH and then there is a monster that forces ASL, negating the last weakness of Ogres, their initiative, with an aura of cold (again seriously? Are these designers/writers really that bad?)

Seriously this army is easy mode. A half retard could get a better then a 50% win ratio with OK. At the higher levels it can be countered by highly optimised lists played by those who make few tactical errors but still that army list is very forgiving of mistakes like no other.

So you can tell, I hate OK. Poorly thought out, poorly executed, just ***** really. Okay now I am expecting hate from all the teenies and young twenties who joined the hobby in the 2000's.

[hazmiter]

Gets the sacrificial dagger ready.
Kournos, I started playing 6 months ago, I read what's posted, I put my ( half informed, and nonsensicle ) opinions up too.
But to your rant I say nothing.
*sacrifices an ogre and gives the appropriate parts to the chaos gods to miscast IF power of darkness*

[CmdrLaw]

Seriously this army is easy mode. A half retard could get a better then a 50% win ratio with OK. At the higher levels it can be countered by highly optimised lists played by those who make few tactical errors but still that army list is very forgiving of mistakes like no other.

So you can tell, I hate OK. Poorly thought out, poorly executed, just ***** really. Okay now I am expecting hate from all the teenies and young twenties who joined the hobby in the 2000's.

Well I have been playing a long time but only recently came to OK, mostly because I was going to a story based campaign where me and a friend who was bringing a Marienburg themed list and I was his "hired muscle".

Plus I wanted an army that played differently to the armies I had already used (High Elves, Skaven, Undead, WoC) and Ogres seemed to fit the bill.

And yes the playstyle is quite simple, doesn't require a lot of thought. Your missile/artillery doesn't need protecting. The MI are solid and don't need much buffing (although they have still been crushed many a time and Death/Shadow are a massive deathknell) so generally you can just run your blocks at things and roll dice and see what happens.

SO WHAT? If people want to play a game without thinking too much then thats perfectly in character for OGRES. If you don't like that play style there are dozens which rely on Movement, Synergy, Magic Dominance, Gunlines etc etc.

Most players are casual players who don't go to tournaments so army choice comes down to things like; Liking the models, liking the fluff, liking the playstyle. So GW has to appeal to as many people as possible.

A good (or even average) player will easily beat a sloppy OK player.

[TheOneHawk]

Kurnous, dude, chill. Getting this worked up over your dislike for one army in a game of toy soldiers is not worth it.