Ogres Over Powered? (Am I missing something?)

[Lord Inquisitor]

The problem is, the only armies that are slightly comparable are the 7th edition power books (skaven, lizzies,dark elves, daemons) The only lists in 8th form that are somewhat comparable are the VC (black knight build) and the CD (and the CD mainly, because they have the destroyer and multi-wound artillery/spells so really just a bad matchup, OK are a far better list..)

I think Orcs and Goblins and Empire stack up well against Ogres too. Orcs stack up well and Empire have a lot of nasty tricks. CD I think have three seriously broken units so it's hard to see past them.

I fear Cruddance has really stymied the TK and Empire, and I dont mean that because power level, but really the fact that half those troop types in those books are unplayable.

I think you need to stop complaining about your Empire and really hit the table with them if you want to see what they can do. They're solid, they're just completely reliant on synergy but they're a lot stronger than they look on paper.

Thanks for your reply, although i really was not exaggerating or lying. Do you mind showing your math?

If i get a chance to get on a computer with a keyboard, I'll write down some nmbers.

The easiest way to kill him is through combat res, once he gets in that challenge, you throw sabertusks on the side flanks, generate ombat res, and you run him down.


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Edit: nevermind, i read your other posts inquisitor and you seem to be so on the defensive/offensive retort that I don't see a productive discussion. My bad! Have a great day, no need for either of us to spend the time!

I'm confused by this, but I'll answer your initial points and if you don't want to discuss further that's fine.

A dreadlord has 3 wounds, so that's the minimum number of wounds required to kill him. Multiply by how many wounds required to get a failed save (S4 so 1 in 6 will wound, so 6 wounds needed per unsaved wound) and by the number of wounds required to fail a single pendant save (1 in 3 fail for S4, so multiply by 3.) That brings us to 54 wounds at S4 required to make an average of 3 wounds after saves. But we still need to account for the "to hit" and "to wound" rolls. Only 1 in 3 attacks will hit, excluding an unlikely failed fear test (so multiply by 3) but 2 in 3 will wound (multiply by 3/2). Which is 243 attacks needed for 3 unsaved wounds.

Put another way, the odds of a single ogre attack inflicting an unsaved wound is 1.2%.

Beating the Dreadlord through static combat res is unlikely to work either, unfortunately, since they have enough points in their magic allowance to buy the Crown of Command. With Ld10, that is not likely to fail.

Not commenting on power... I think the above robs the army of some "personality", less is often more.

Fair enough, I did not realise you were addressing them from a fluff perspective.

Nah, a modern horse has a higher top speed than a Lion or a tiger

There seems to be a bit of variation in the values I can find online but in any case a big cat should be able to roughly match even a racehorse. M8 seems quite reasonable for sabretusks it seems.

Which is a good thing because any big cat cannot support any weight on it's spine so would be incapable of supporting a rider... for anybody who wants to keep going down the "but they is cats!" route.

What? Are you saying He Man isn't realistic?!

Dont be jealous

Cheese! Beardy, beardy cheese!

[Sexiest_hero]

Indeed I meant the cannon with flaming rune, I'd forgotton that a "Flame cannon" actually existed for Dwarves. In any event This thread is done, Ogres are good but not op.aybe there shot be a weaknesses of OK or how to deal with Mournfang thread with some actual tactics in it.

[TsukeFox]

The chaos dwarf magma cannon on the other hand has a 24" range before overshoot.

Hail the power of Forgeworld-err Chaos!!

[Montegue]

I got my butt handed to me on a plate by a single Irongut Star tonight. It had 4 characters (Slaughtermaster with Fencers Blades and Glittering Scales, BSB with a solid armor save, Bruiser with a decent armor save and the Trickster's Helm, and a Firebelly with the Crown of Command).

I had him in front with deep Hammerers, and in the flank with a full horde of Great Weapon warriors. Still wasn't enough. You just cannot wound those damn characters in the front, even with S6 great weapons. I was stuck and unable to go horde with hammerers, but it wouldn't have mattered much. Only won a single round of combat, but he was stubborn, and I could never lay an axe on the Firebelly until it was too late (he was hidden in the unit because of the Make Way hijinks Ogres can do.

[Sexiest_hero]

Thats what Death stars do. Take something that Ignores armor and Hack down the bsb and bruiser then star o the normal Ogers

[Methios]

On a side note....How are beastmen a tough matchup for ogres? You can shoot the living crap out of them and stand toe to toe with them in combat without to much problems.

[CmdrLaw]

(he was hidden in the unit because of the Make Way hijinks Ogres can do.

Errr Ogres don't have any special make way rules that I have encountered??

[Scammel]

On a side note....How are beastmen a tough matchup for ogres? You can shoot the living crap out of them and stand toe to toe with them in combat without to much problems.

Lore of Shadow Herdstone shenannigans, S4 Gors hitting on 3s with re-rolls with a craptonne of attacks and having some of the best chaff in the game makes for a potent combo. I also think you're slightly overestimating Ogre shooting power - it's very competent and useful for taking out light/medium units, but it's rarely something you'll use to dfefeat the enemy outright.

[DruidNei]

Errr Ogres don't have any special make way rules that I have encountered??

Full front rank of characters can keep firebelly in the second rank. Nothing special here, every army can do it to some extent.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I got my butt handed to me on a plate by a single Irongut Star tonight. It had 4 characters (Slaughtermaster with Fencers Blades and Glittering Scales, BSB with a solid armor save, Bruiser with a decent armor save and the Trickster's Helm, and a Firebelly with the Crown of Command).

I had him in front with deep Hammerers, and in the flank with a full horde of Great Weapon warriors. Still wasn't enough. You just cannot wound those damn characters in the front, even with S6 great weapons. I was stuck and unable to go horde with hammerers, but it wouldn't have mattered much. Only won a single round of combat, but he was stubborn, and I could never lay an axe on the Firebelly until it was too late (he was hidden in the unit because of the Make Way hijinks Ogres can do.

I run a very similar build. However, that ought to be a pretty awful position for the ogres to be in. With the firebelly staying in the middle of the unit, when engaged on two sides the characters can only protect the front or the flank. A horde of great weapons should have cut through the soft underbelly of ironguts until you expose the firebelly. Obviously I don't know the exact details, but that's exactly the way to kill such a unit and I'm surprised it didn't work. The BSB also is often a weak link when used in this manner, no matter how you gear him there's only so many S6 attacks he can take! Do you feel you were unlucky? And he didn't use Make Way on any characters already in base to base, did he?

[Kurnous the Hunter]

Thats what Death stars do. Take something that Ignores armor and Hack down the bsb and bruiser then star o the normal Ogers

Ogre deathstars are pretty much the best in the game.

And generally ogres have a relatively easy answer for everything, usually simpler than the enemies answer for them.

[Ghremdal]

Sword of Anti Heroes.

[GrandmasterWang]

Shame dwarfs cant use it

[Ghremdal]

Well then engage the deathstar with the lorpedo and clean up the rest.

[Far2Casual]

Ogre deathstars are pretty much the best in the game.

They are great, yes, but other deathstars can outfight them. The Chosenstar needs not explanation, but other deathstars outfight the Ogre one point-for-point :

Minotaurs :
an Ogre Deathstar (15 Ironguts + Deathfist/Fencer's/Scroll SM + Hellheart Firebelly + RuneMaw BSB = 1443 pts) vs 17 Minotaurs with AHW + broken Doombull build (Frenzy sword, 1+ rr AS giving one extra attack for every armour save, OTS) (1396 pts) :

Let us ignore impact hits (can go both ways).
Doombull in left corner of the Ogre unit.
The Ogre frontage is : SM, FB, Champ, S, M, Bruiser BSB.

Attacks :
Doombull in SM 6 WS6 S6 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1.94 wounds after 6+ ward rerolled.
Bruiser BSB 4 WS5 S5 attacks, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds.
SM attacks 5 WS10 S5 attacks, 3.33 hits, 2.22 wounds.
1 Minotaur in contact + 4 support into SM 17 WS4 S5 attacks, 5.66 hits, 2.83 wounds, 2.75 wounds after 6+ ward rerolled (total of 4.7 on SM, most of the time he's dead).
1 Minotaur in contact + 1 support into Champion 8 WS4 S5 attacks, 5.33 hits, 3.55 wounds, dead champion.
3 Minotaurs in contact + 7 support into unit 36 WS4 S5 attacks, 24 hits, 16 wounds, 5 dead Ironguts + 1 wound.
Firebelly breath 2D6 S4 hits, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds
Firebelly attacks 3 WS3 S4 attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.75 wounds
9 ironguts left 27 WS3 S6 attacks, 13.5 hits, 11.25 wounds

Total :
Beastmen : SM dead, IG champ dead, 5 IG dead = 23 wounds.
Ogres : 19.49 wounds.

Ogres lose combat by 4, aren't stubborn, and minotaurs get +1 A.
Turn 2, all Ironguts but 1 are wiped out next turn before attacking with only the FB and the BSB left that do a grand total of 3.6 wounds before testing on snake eyes.

Please do the maths against a horde of 50 Savage Big Uns with AHW, shaman with shrunken head and kitted Warboss.
Or against a Horde of 50 Tzeentch (or worse, Nurgle) Warriors with Halberds and Banner of Rage, with a fighty lord for example.

Fact is : point for point, Ogre deathstars are dominated by deathstars from other CC-oriented armies.

And generally ogres have a relatively easy answer for everything, usually simpler than the enemies answer for them.

Like the Purple Sun ?

[Valaraukar]

You have spent 0 points on magic for Beastmen in your example though all combat and ~1/3rd of your points for ogres on spell casters than neglected to include the effects of the buffs they WILL have cast, now yes in a full game the other side is likely to have invested in magic as well but possibly not as heavily so the example is flawed. Swap out the SM for a tyrant and I expect the result looks different, also you place characters optimally for the beastmen.

[Cambion Daystar]

Quite a skewed example indeed

[Valaraukar]

Also guts are core and so can make up the bulk of your list, Minotaurs and Chosen along with most other death start type units are special so will require a bigger game to field the same points sized unit.

[Montegue]

@Lord Inquisitor - He never Made Way after the fight was engaged, but we did forget that he can't reform when engaged on two sides. He managed to do that at the end, although I don't know if it would have had a major impact on the game. By that time, between stomps and massive hits from the characters, the hammerers were pretty much out of play, and the GW warriors were just not enough to get the job done.

Not that I'm complaining, mind you. I tend to do well against ogres in general. However, lately as folks have refined their lists, I find my all comers list to be completely inadequate. I don't have any truly deadly units. Hammerers get cut to pieces by characters without great weapons, and GW warriors get outpaced when any buff or hex lands in the magic phase (which can happen just fine, even with the Anvil, a Runelord, and a MR of Balance. The scythe taught me that, recently).

[Montegue]

The reason why the Gutstar is so evil (and, understand, I am not complaining about OK. It's a good army, I Just haven't been able to find an answer in an all comers list thusfar) is because of the raw amount of attacks they can produce while simultaneously maximizing ranks to take away your steadfast. If you flank them, you actually significantly increase their potential active combat resolution, especially if they're buffed or you roll poorly. Ogres are anything but weak on the flank. 3 attacks, all at S6 hitting on 4s (assuming no buffs or hexes) is a brutal thing to endure on the flank. If you manage to keep your horde attacks, you're probably going to just cancel each other out in terms of CR, and you might just lose it all.