Ogres Over Powered? (Am I missing something?)

[Mercules]

Stomps.... missed the stomps. Then again I was remoted into a customer's computer, answering an IM, having an E-mail exchange, while calculating it all out.

[Far2Casual]

So what other unit is 300 plus points and can kill 32 guys by not running them down... pretty strong if you ask me.

30 Flagellants in horde. 40 Attacks rerolling to hit and to wound will put ~29 Wounds on WS3 T3 models. So : OMFG OP HACKS CHEAT BAN NERF EMPIRE §§§!!11oneone
By the way they would also kill 3 Mournfangs in one round, just saying.

Please continue the lament guys, I'm enjoying it.

[oldWitheredCorpse]

30 Flagellants in horde. 40 Attacks rerolling to hit and to wound will put ~29 Wounds on WS3 T3 models. So : OMFG OP HACKS CHEAT BAN NERF EMPIRE §§§!!11oneone

A flagellant horde is much easier to avoid and redirect.

[Scammel]

It's also much, much harder to make them flee with panic via shooting - impossible, one might say!

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

^^^ Much easier to kill with T3 and unit-masochism.

[hazmiter]

Much easier to kill with unit masochism.....


More like easier to kill with a well placed flank charge.

OP..... It's all in the mind of the player.
Omg count mannfredd is op!!!!! No he's not, I just didn't take the nessassary precautions or switch my brain on.
Omg I got flanked by crypt horrors, they're op, nope again, crappy positioning of own unit, shoulda seen it coming.

Ogres op.... Nope just a bad ass army that needs a few extra ordinary ideas to kill.
Reaper boltthrowers, hydras, witch elves, spearmen w mind razor or killing blow from cauldron.

What you need to kill something is either there alone, or is there in a combo.
Instead of whining op, ask how others would or have beaten them.
You would be suprised.

[tmarichards]

Killing Blow from the Cauldron is arguably one of the less effective ways of killing something Ogres.

[TsukeFox]

Killing Blow from the Cauldron is arguably one of the less effective ways of killing something Ogres.

For sure Killing Blow should do D3 wounds to monstrous infantry/Calvary. I mean it says a blow so mighty it kills right? How does it not still hit something vital when one KBs an MI or MC ???

And then! Throts' thing catcher would grant heroic killing blow since it already does D3 wounds.

[hazmiter]

Oh yeah, monstrous infantry ignore it....... Fine ill take the 5++ ward .

[Sexiest_hero]

oddly enough I a ran a lvl 2 Tzeentch herald for fun and realized just what the lore of metal did to mourn fangs. he he won't fear the anymore!

[Mercules]

I believe some of the "They are overpowered" is more of a, "They are different so the things that work well against them don't work well against the rest of the Meta-game." Eleven bolt throwers are annoying to Ogres but do very little damage to other army books. So no one really takes them.

[vcassano]

To some extent I do agree, Mercules. 8th has seen a significant shift (and continuing shift) towards more and bigger infantry units. What do Ogres do best? Destroy infantry.

To that end, I would suggest that is not Mournfang (which are very efficient for their points, but do exactly what regular Ogres do, just a bit better)that make the army strong but its able redirectors (Sabretusks, Gnoblars) and its Ironblasters. These give the army the tactical flexibility to be able to exploit their rich strengths.

Also, Ogres can obliterate enemy units with ease which can be demoralising for some opponents even if it is exactly how it should have played out mathematically.

That said, I'd like to see some effort to make Ogre armies that are more varied. I am planning for a tournament in June to take a Stonehorn (maybe 2, if I can get them painted) and a Level 4 of Beasts, for example.

[Kahadras]

I believe that one of my friends put forward that Ogres are difficult to beat as they aren't like most armies and that they are deceptive to play against due to the amount of wounds that each one has and how fast they can move. An example that he used was replacing a unit of 10 bulls with a unit of 30 spearmen to represent how 'big' the unit was in term of wounds. People also underestimate how great the extra movement is as well as a single march move can take most Orge infantry half way across the board and give them a decent hope of a turn two charge (which is massive IMHO).

I also feel that their are 'obvious choices' in the list which restricts built types. Slaughtermasters are spellcasters, solid in combat and can regenerate wounds if they get spells off which is a fantastic combination. I'm pretty sure GW dropped this combination a while ago for all the most expencive lord choices because it was concidered to be so good. Mornfang cavalry is another example of a automatic pick; great speed/maveuvrability, massive damage on the charge, can take damage due to 3 wounds each and a 2+ save.

Kahadras

[Sexiest_hero]

Ogres have their foils, is it really their fault that they are strong against "meta" builds. In My last battle I beat them with a joke daemon army Consisting of A GUO with trappings, a Lore of metal herald a lvl and1 slaanesh herald in a chariot and a core unit for every god. I know daemons are an almost OP army, but Lore of metal did most of the heavylifting. People don't understand that Ogres HAVE changed the tourny scene. People complain about flanking not doing anything, and when a unit comes that Eats units in the flank it's op. Don't change the way you play and Ogres will eat you up.

[DragonArmy]

Haven' read the entire thread, but i think a few points need to be made/reminded of:

It does't feel in the spirit of the game to have:
- Super cheap redirectors and chaff, which allows for great charges.
- be able to load characters in the front rank and not target the unit.
- Several units tend to be well priced for their effectiveness.
- While not broken, casters are pretty beefy.

However, I haven't seen an ogre player comment that lower ws and I is tough. If I can make them hit on fives, I find I do a lot better.

Ogre players, welcome to an army that now, when you win, people complain that they started at a disadvantage. Own up to it.



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[Sexiest_hero]

Ogres ave two units that are very good, and two items that are very good. They are no match for True broken 7th armies

[Duke Ramulots]

As a few other posters have mentioned, theyre not overpowered, they're just different and you have to use different tactics to beat them. I find that t4 almost unarmored troops are pretty easy to kill and having poor WS and I also makes them rather sad in close combat.

[Mercules]

To some extent I do agree, Mercules. 8th has seen a significant shift (and continuing shift) towards more and bigger infantry units. What do Ogres do best? Destroy infantry.

And that is exactly what my last post was about. Unfortunately I was pressed for time, literally was being told we were leaving, but I had the thought and wanted to get it out there. The current Meta is big blocks of infantry. Ogres stomp(literally) big blocks of infantry. Ogres have issues with things that are faster than them, with high WS, or that they can't stomp. Things like big monsters. However GW then gave us a tool for that in Ironblasters.

Don't get me wrong, I love that we finally have a way to deal with some of the things we never previously could in 7th and even early 8th. I do dislike that our tools appear cheap to everyone else.

I believe that one of my friends put forward that Ogres are difficult to beat as they aren't like most armies and that they are deceptive to play against due to the amount of wounds that each one has and how fast they can move. An example that he used was replacing a unit of 10 bulls with a unit of 30 spearmen to represent how 'big' the unit was in term of wounds. People also underestimate how great the extra movement is as well as a single march move can take most Orge infantry half way across the board and give them a decent hope of a turn two charge (which is massive IMHO).

I also feel that their are 'obvious choices' in the list which restricts built types. Slaughtermasters are spellcasters, solid in combat and can regenerate wounds if they get spells off which is a fantastic combination. I'm pretty sure GW dropped this combination a while ago for all the most expencive lord choices because it was concidered to be so good. Mornfang cavalry is another example of a automatic pick; great speed/maveuvrability, massive damage on the charge, can take damage due to 3 wounds each and a 2+ save.

Kahadras

I have to agree. In 7th I lost a LOT with my Ogres but then I got a solid grasp on them and began to win more and more. In looking at my wins I could anecdotally point towards underestimating and/or unfamiliarity with Ogres helping. I was playing strictly MSU and would bait and flee and then hit them in the flank with 3-4 Ironguts or 2 Maneaters and a Tyrant with the Thundermace.

I know one victory over a solid VC player happened because he thought his Casting Vampire Lord safe behind a unit of 20+ Zombies. He stuck a unit of regenerating Grave Guard in front of my Tyrant's unit. The Tyrant stuck out from the side enough I could declare a charge on the Zombies. I even had Longstrider on him and so was able to complete that long charge. I then smacked them with the Thundermace, they evaporated, and I overran into the VC Lord and killed him on his turn. Why did I win then? The VC player didn't conceive such an action was possible, that one character could smash a unit of more than 20 zombies in a single turn and get to his Lord.

I see the same thing happening in 8th where people who are used to dealing with armies one way. Ogres are not easily dealt with that way. People are shocked when that one way doesn't work for everything.

Ogres have their foils, is it really their fault that they are strong against "meta" builds.

This is the gist of the issue and the perception rises from it. I hear things like, "An all-comers list shouldn't have to include X because it helps them beat Ogres." Which is a bit like saying you shouldn't have to account for Dwarven Warmachines in an all-comers list or their dispelling ability. My hope is that as Ogre armies grow in popularity there will be a shift in the Meta-Game to encompass them instead of just assuming the game is X and it is played like X then getting upset when it is really Y.

[Texhnolyze]

I don't know about ogres but anyway.

This turnament was held in the uk this weekend. Call to war 2012.
There were 100 players in the turnament, using the newest ETC draft.

In the top 10. there were 5 ogre player.


Link to the closed army lists: http://www.protechcomputers.org/warh...osed_Lists.pdf
Link to the ressult : http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewto...?f=13&t=101590

[Renka]

Disregarding everything else: at least Ogres do something different. What leads to the most boring games of all is when some armies do what others do best, only better. It leaves entire army books in the dust, without a niche or even a point. Ogres may be good, but at least they are good in their own way. At least they are still interesting. At least they bring something new to the table.