Ogres Over Powered? (Am I missing something?)

[Asuryan's Spear]

I agree with Sexiest_hero on this. everyone is talking about mournfangs and their armour. as a HE player my unit of 32 spearmen usually does the job when mind razored (situational i know). the point i'm trying to make is that their low WS(for elite cav) means that they are hit relatively easily and if you can buff those attacks to a high strength it will negate both armour and T. also people need to bear in mind that apart from impact hit they are striking back after most things. anything str 5 or higher tends to worry them( WoC w/Halbs, HE WL SM even PG at a pinch etc.) and if you can do 5-6 (12 str5 wounds not entirely unfeasible with low WS of mournfangs) wounds you can be looking at 2 of 4 attacking back (they should be losing at least 2 wounds on the way in from magic, shooting etc)

[tmarichards]

I think that the argument that something is fine because it can be beaten by a unit with S8 and re-rolls to hit is perhaps a little bit flawed.

[Djekar]

So I've been thinking about this thread for a while, and I've decided that I agree that Ogres aren't borked - for now. My reasoning goes like this:

Until I started Dark Elves, I thought the Hydra was one of the most broken things imaginable. Tom said that he thought it was easy points - I scoffed! How ridiculous. Since I've started my Cult of Pleasure list and painted up a hydra to use, I've found that Tom is right. If you have an answer to the Hydra, it is easy points (or at the very least it has to be used extremely carefully). Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that while the Hydra is powerful (certainly!), it is not overpowered or broken.

After careful consideration, I believe this to be true of Ogres. In the same way that the Hydra/Abomb forces concessions in the list building phase, I believe that Ogres (and to a smaller degree Skaven and VC) do as well. I wonder if in several months if we will still be having these conversations about the power of Ogres when people realize that if you bring the correct counters (either by building them into your list or by finding the way for your list to deal with Ogres without a change) that they are really quite manageable?

Are Ogres powerful? Certainly! Mournfangs and Ironblasters will probably remain the outstanding units in the book, but I think that within a year Ogres will be seen as much less of a hobby destroyer. Hopefully that will be because we, as a community, will grow tactically and adapt to this new environment and not because in a year power-creep has been reinstated.

TL;DR - I think that Ogres are probably okay and while certain choices are under costed a bit, it's nothing to beat a depressed, alcoholic clown over.

[Mercules]

Once again I'll point out that if you decide to play to an Ogre player's strengths they are going to steamroll you. Big hordes of GW wielding troops get smashed by Ogres. Relying on a single Caster Lord as your general too could be dangerous as Hellheart or Sniping Maneaters might just take him out of the fight early on and leave you without magic or Ld.

Ogres went from being an uphill battle against everyone else in 7th, to being middle ground in 8th, to having tools to deal with their weaknesses in 8th.

To say, "I shouldn't have to account for Ogres when building my All Comers list." is blatantly silly. What you end up really saying is, "I shouldn't have to do anything different to beat this army that is different from other things." What sort of clear thinking is that?

Spouting that you have to redesign your whole army to deal with Ogres is a bit of exaggeration as well. Believe it or not a Cannon or Bolt Thrower can ruin an Ogre's day. If you can get the Mournfang outside the LD bubble, and trust me I try hard to keep all my troops in the bubble so know it is hard to keep them safe, then no AS shots will usually panic Mournfang. All you have to do is kill one with shooting.

I've actually had a HE player who said, "How am I supposed to deal with Mournfangs with HE?" I said, "Well the RBTs do a number on them, they reall..." to have him snap, "RBTs are crap and worthless." so apparently it was a rhetorical question and he really didn't want the answer. Apparently his all archer Core and hordes of White Lions should be able to kill everything.

[Djekar]

I think perhaps that you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. Let me try again:

I am saying that Ogres are fine. They *do* require people to think/play/plan their army differently, but that's not a bad thing. In fact, I would imagine that if nothing ever required people to change their tactics that the game would get rather boring after a few years. Some things are rubbish, some things are almost auto includes. This is true of most every army, and so cannot be attributed as a failing of the Ogre book itself.

Is that more clear?

[Mercules]

Djekar,

Who is "you"? As I am the only person to have responded since your previous post I'll assume me. I wasn't commenting on your post, but rather several that have occurred on the previous page.

[Djekar]

< insert shameface here.

[Asuryan's Spear]

I think that the argument that something is fine because it can be beaten by a unit with S8 and re-rolls to hit is perhaps a little bit flawed.

a little bit nit picky but my main point was that people seem to think they are invincible and I'm saying that as with may things mind razor levels the playing field in most cases. and my actual point was strength 5+(readily available in most armies) is usualluy enough to level the playing field

[Kahadras]

I've actually had a HE player who said, "How am I supposed to deal with Mournfangs with HE?" I said, "Well the RBTs do a number on them, they reall..." to have him snap, "RBTs are crap and worthless." so apparently it was a rhetorical question and he really didn't want the answer. Apparently his all archer Core and hordes of White Lions should be able to kill everything.

I wouldn't say RBT's are worthless but they don't do particularly well against Mornfang unless you take them in large amounts and plenty of chaff to slow down them down to let you get enough shots in. Shooting at long range you're only going to hit half of the time with the single bolt. While you're then wounding on 2's and preventing them from taking their armour save you're only causing D3 wounds per hit. Having deployed two repeatedly against Ogres I've come the conculsion they are better off shooting at other things in my opponants list.

My friend summed it up that if you deploy 3 Bolt Throwers against Mornfang you are probably going to get a return of about 4 wounds a turn at short range. That's a pretty poor return for the 300 points you've sank into them. You can force a panic check with that kind of result but relying on your opponant failing a single check on a fairly average leadership isn't the best way to go about things.

Kahadras

[Mercules]

Seeing as how most of the army is WS 3 with low armour saves anything WS 4 and S5+ smacks them around a bit.


One other point I'd like to make is what context are we talking about for games. Something I recently realized from some conversation is that Ogre Ld issues can get compounded by the high movement of their units and volume of their battle line. Most of us tend to keep about 3 units safely under our Ld bubble most of the time. Certain things can make this more difficult. One of these is terrain. However, when I have attended tournaments I often find boards set up in a manner where very few terrain pieces are used or they are relegated mostly to the edges of the board allowing armies to cluster around their Ld bubble.

I can think of several games for my Ogres where I was forced to split around a terrain feature and so fewer units were able to be safely Ld 8-10 with Re-roll. Low model count + Ld 7 = panic from shooting and/or magic and I have experienced that or I've lost a combat by 1 due to a misjudged charge or poor dice rolls and had to try and hold on a 6 because there was a group of rocks or a building that broke up my line.

[Mercules]

I wouldn't say RBT's are worthless but they don't do particularly well against Mornfang unless you take them in large amounts and plenty of chaff to slow down them down to let you get enough shots in. Shooting at long range you're only going to hit half of the time with the single bolt. While you're then wounding on 2's and preventing them from taking their armour save you're only causing D3 wounds per hit. Having deployed two repeatedly against Ogres I've come the conculsion they are better off shooting at other things in my opponants list.

My friend summed it up that if you deploy 3 Bolt Throwers against Mornfang you are probably going to get a return of about 4 wounds a turn at short range. That's a pretty poor return for the 300 points you've sank into them. You can force a panic check with that kind of result but relying on your opponant failing a single check on a fairly average leadership isn't the best way to go about things.

Kahadras

Ehem! Lets not talk about them in a vacuum.

All you really have to do is get 2 wounds on a Mournfang with the RBTs or even magic. At that point if you pepper them with S3 bows you are likely to sneak a wound through and that last wound causes a panic check. Remember that you don't have to do all those wounds in one phase or turn either, you just have to kill 1 Mournfang at some point and they are testing unless they brought 5+(which I have only ever seen once). If they are outside the Ld Bubble they test against Ld 7 and when the do panic they run 3d6 drop the lowest with a HUGE footprint which can often cause them to have to clear the other large ogre units and run off the board in that turn.

Mournfang have To4 and 3 wounds. They are the definition of Glasshammer and with Ld 7 it isn't all that hard to shatter them.

[Kahadras]

Ehem! Lets not talk about them in a vacuum.

Vacumum speak is easiest. Once we introduce terrain, set up, Mornfang mobility, Brusier BSB's, Giant Eagles, Curse of Arrow Attraction, multiple Mornfang units and Maneaters things start getting more complex.

All you really have to do is get 2 wounds on a Mournfang with the RBTs or even magic. At that point if you pepper them with S3 bows you are likely to sneak a wound through and that last wound causes a panic check. Remember that you don't have to do all those wounds in one phase or turn either, you just have to kill 1 Mournfang at some point and they are testing unless they brought 5+(which I have only ever seen once). If they are outside the Ld Bubble they test against Ld 7 and when the do panic they run 3d6 drop the lowest with a HUGE footprint which can often cause them to have to clear the other large ogre units and run off the board in that turn.

I'm sad to say that I've never seen this happen. Either the Ogres get the first turn and get themselves so far onto the table that they'll get at least a turn or two to rally if they do panic or they set up near enough to the Irongut/BSB/Slaughtermaster block so are testing on the generals leadership with the BSB reroll.

Mournfang have To4 and 3 wounds. They are the definition of Glasshammer and with Ld 7 it isn't all that hard to shatter them.

With a 2+ armour save, toughness 4 and 3 wounds I doubt we can call them glass hammers. If they were such a liability we wouldn't see so many turning up all the time. Leadership 7 is about the only real weakness they possess and even that isn't the end of the world as you'll pass more checks than you fail and again your opponant is banking on you not being within range of the BSB and failing that roll.

Kahadras

[Deroga]

The thing is, High Elf Archers are far more effective at shooting up chaff, lead belchers, and maneaters. It really is a bad idea to target Mournfang with them unless the others are not present. RBT are good against mournfang, but here again they are far better, and more effective, at shooting up lead belchers and maneaters. A full archer core and 2 RBT should cause around 10 wounds to lead belchers per turn. Add in any magic missiles and you can get rid of a serious ranged threat for High Elves very quickly.

Against mournfang, you just have to line up swordmasters or white lions to face off against them. This is an example where the preferred unit size 14 swordmasters are not as effective as a medium sized unit (21-24), since the impact hits affect the units ability to dish damage out greatly at such a small unit size. Against a unit of 4 mournfang, assuming the high elf player widened their unit of swordmasters/white lions to maximize damage (12 wide), they should deal 6/9 wounds respectively. This kills 1-2 mournfang before they get to attack, which should make this combat an overall grind, with spells and luck to determine which side wins. Other than taking lore of metal, i think that horded white lions are the best option to taking down mournfang without have to waste shooting at them.

[Deroga]

Double Post

[hazmiter]

Ld 7 for mournfang...... Terrorghiest......

[Mercules]

Here is a novel concept. Shoot a unit near the Mournfang at an angle so they will pass through the mournfang when they flee and force a panic check on them too. That is assuming you are in an army that doesn't have a Cannon or Stone Thrower.

[Kahadras]

Against mournfang, you just have to line up swordmasters or white lions to face off against them.

Problem is with that is the fact that only a really new Ogre player will attempt to charge a full unit of White Lions. It's not just a simple case of line up, face off, win. In most of my games the Mornfang just use their speed to go after other units and simply avoid your large special choice infantry block. While I'm not saying that it's imposible to deal with Mornfang it's just a lot more difficult than simply taking unit X, Y or Z. Especialy if your opponant turns up with more than one unit of Mornfang.

I have to admit though that Mornfang aren't the only thing in the army which give me problems. The Irongutstar is really nails, Maneaters are a nightmare to deal with and I've yet to see my opponants Slaughtermaster die in any of the games I've played against him. I have manged to beat Ogres in the past but only when they leave out one or two of the 'must buy' units. A Slaughtermaster and Ironguts isn't so bad if there are no Mornfang or Ironblasters. I'm even happy to have some Mornfang on the table as long as there isn't the Ironguts/BSB/Slaughtermaster combo running across the table at me as well.

I suppose it's the same as with most army books. Once you start stacking an army with all of the 'best bits' it rapidly get much harder to play against.

Kahadras

[Kahadras]

Double post

[hazmiter]

Sig spell from lore shadows, 1d6 to cast it, melkoths is easy to pop out on them, if they dispel that, go withering next, then a few other spells, or if you want to be cheese, 2 lv2s of shadow, 2 melkoths.....

[Deroga]

Hopefully a High Elf player will have more than 1 unit of swordmasters / white lions. It shouldnt be to hard to keep mournfang threatened no matter where they run to on the battlefield. Also, depending on what lore of magic has been taken, and if you are fielding repeater bolt throwers (with no leadbelchers to target), then the more time the ogre player spends maneuvering to find a non white lion / swordmaster target, the more time you have to kill some mournfang. Then, of course, there are Eagles to keep them away for a couple turns. Mournfang are tough, no doubt, but there are very reasonable answers in the High Elf list.