Ogres Over Powered? (Am I missing something?)

[SunTzu]

And it's not worth a single point if you muck up any of the rolls associated with it, which is not only possible, but happens pretty frequently.

Not really sure how. Given that you can pre-measure in 8th Ed, it's trivial to get within 5" or 10" of the main enemy caster, that's automatic or a 2+. It's also usually fairly straightforward to get within 15" or 20" (3+ or 4+) of the apprentice at the same time - that's pretty good odds of causing some serious hurt, in addition to simply shutting down an entire magic phase.

[TsukeFox]

The magma cannons ruin anything, not just ogres. The entire FW CD book should be disallowed in any sort of tournament setting.

Any armies toys can be beat.

Let us not forget that Chaos Dwarf players have gone almost a decade++
Without being able to play their models that they paid good money for.
It is not their fault that forge world wrote such an unbalanced book-
Tournys really only need to ban the Destroyer.

[Scammel]

That's like saying the Chosenstar is not worth it because every once in awhile you will go against a Skaven list with The Dreaded 13th.

It isn't. The Chosenstar doesn't flop 33% of the time straight off the bat, with further botched rolls being more than capable of making the item nigh-useless. The first time I got the thing off it killed 2 Marauders and got rid of a single power die.

but the Hellheart causes tons of damage when it goes off.

Not really. The majority of results perhaps cause a small handful of wounds, though I'll admit the actual defence aspect of it is often worth the points when it works.

All you have to do is wait until you will hit at least the level 4 wizard on 2+ (or guaranteed) or 2 wizards on a 3+ or so.

If you can get an Ogre unit within 10 inches of an enemy wizard, you can probably save the 50pts spent on the thing as you're about to eat his face anyway. If your opponent is letting multiple wizards stand within 15 inches of a probable Hellhearter, he probably derserves it.

[Malorian]

Any opponent who doesn't bunker his mage when playing against ogres is a fool and should be easily beaten anyway.

[Mr Ogre]

Hi there.

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I play Ogres, and have done since 8th came out (saw the Horde rules, cackled, and procured an army there and then). So far, I've been pretty successful with them, barring the odd run in with a Witch Elf Okkam's Lawn Mower Manouevre (bits of Ogre everywhere!).

But you know what I've found costs me more games than anything? A lack of momentum. I play with two hordes, one Bulls, the other Ironguts. Thanks to my speed (already copiously pointed out) I *tend* to be able to pick and choose my fights. And with the sheer violent output of my units (whether magically souped up or not) whatever I hit typically goes squish in extremely short order. If your set up is flawed, you'll be lucky to rearrange your line in time, allowing me to punch straight throug your centre, and quite often into the high points yield artillery. BUT....if you get the charge...that's never worked too well for me. I find I struggle, as typically it's a unit highly unlikely to flee pinning me in place, ready for a nasty flank charge.

Also, other strengths people have so far failed to pick up on (well, as far as I read...felt the overwhelming urge to register and weigh in). Our frankly unsurpassed ability to smoosh most characters in combat, outside of a challenge. Heroes tend to take a kicking, and that means the BSB. Direct a few attacks, and rip that lynchpin right out. A hero in my unit is typically (but not always!) capable of duffing up enemy Lords (especially those who favour magic...) and my Tyrant is designed to excel in one on one, General on General punch ups.

Just don't look at my flanks. Nothing to see there. Move along. Look at the Mournfang, look at the Mournfang! That's far more interesting! Grrr! Mournfang. Not the flank! Not the flank! Oh dear....that's a rather expensive block of Ogres just been ganked by pretty bog standard infantry. Seriously. Think about what Ogres don't tend to get - Steadfast. Jump my flank, and you strip my ranks, leaving me with a static res of 1 (standard), and a relatively meagre 9 attacks, and no stomps. It's really, really not that hard to win that sort of combat. Even Gobbos can do it relatively easily. Then I'm just a single botched Break Test away from losing a massive chunk of my army!

[Whut]

Why do people say the Destroyer is Overpowered?

I mean, looking at it by itself for its points, yes, completely. But you can only take 1 in 2500 (around 2400-2500 I see most tournies played)

For example if the Ironblaster was a 0-1 choice, I doubt anyone would be complaining.

[tmarichards]

It's OP because unless you have magical attacks or are S5 or better, it can't be wounded. As a result, it's immune to about 85% of the game, and against the things it's not immune to it has a 4++/ The incredibly high movement also makes it very very difficult to redirect.

If you cap it at always being able to be wounded on a 6, then it is simply very good instead of overpowered, but as it standard it's more than a bit ridiculous.

[Whut]

It's OP because unless you have magical attacks or are S5 or better, it can't be wounded. As a result, it's immune to about 85% of the game, and against the things it's not immune to it has a 4++/ The incredibly high movement also makes it very very difficult to redirect.

If you cap it at always being able to be wounded on a 6, then it is simply very good instead of overpowered, but as it standard it's more than a bit ridiculous.

Well essentially the exact same thing goes for the old Empire Stank, (S4 needs 6's and then 2+ save, pretty much immune) but I didn't hear nearly as many complaints as the Destroyer.

[tmarichards]

The Stank could also auto-die to 2 spells with no tests allowed, and could be held up in combat with chaff units. None of that works against the Destroyer.

[decker_cky]

Any opponent who doesn't bunker his mage when playing against ogres is a fool and should be easily beaten anyway.

Ahhhh.....so because it changes how everyone has to play against the army it's ok.

[TsukeFox]

Well essentially the exact same thing goes for the old Empire Stank, (S4 needs 6's and then 2+ save, pretty much immune) but I didn't hear nearly as many complaints as the Destroyer.

The tank is going down to T6 and like Tom said it is vulnerable to int spells.

The destroyers only weakness is "the withering" & daemon armies. any smart player will dispell that spell unless a double six goes off. Against daemons it really is hit or miss.

Chaos Dwarves can make much better list without the Destroyer, it really is a crutch.

[Shimmergloom]

I don't care if CD players have waited a hundred years for a book, that's no excuse to give CD sorc's a 2+ ward by hiding behind a war machine, or let them have flame template sized cannon balls or a monster that can't be wounded by most of the warhammer world, greenskins that don't have animosity and rocket launchers that use the 5" template. And to top it all off they still have access to the main rulebook superspells.

There's really no point in giving them an army book if it's so OP that most tournies either ban it outright of force extra rules on it to make it playable.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Why do people say the Destroyer is Overpowered?

I mean, looking at it by itself for its points, yes, completely. But you can only take 1 in 2500 (around 2400-2500 I see most tournies played)

For example if the Ironblaster was a 0-1 choice, I doubt anyone would be complaining.

The destroyer is rather filthy. It has a few weaknesses to exploit but it's advantages are crazy.

- Frenzy (pro/con) while this can be exploited it has a good Ld and an insane M9, making it very hard to trap. It also pushes its attacks into the level where most characters can't stand up to it.

- WS (pro) a WS of 5 makes it difficult for low WS heroes to hit it and pretty much all infantry are hitting it on 4s.

- Strength/attacks (pro) it is at the level that it will trash any hero even top of the line ones such as ogres.

- toughness/save (pro!) with -1 to wound and a 4+ ward, this thing is hands down the toughest mother out there. No other monster can take cannons like this guy. Oh and it's immune to all small arms and any unit less than S5 unless they're magical. Lovely. Plus it has a fire ward, just to really stick the boot in if you put the flaming banner on your great weapon guys. Characters can put a dent in with magical weapons - if they live long enough to use them...

- base size (pro) a big base is usually a disadvantage to monsters but since the more models in contact the more damage it does, ouch.

- toughness tests (con) this is something to exploit if you can get its toughness down you'll be able to hurt the damn thing and also get it to hurt itself. The chaos dwarf player knows this though so actually doing it is tricky!

- I5 (pro) at this point I really lost it with the damn thing. Why does it have such a good initiative!? So I-based spells are a waste of time.

- M9 (pro) allows it to run circles round you and any redirectors you have.

- unbreakable/unstable (pro) you'd think this would be a weakness - beat it on static res and it dies! Easier said than done. You have to win combat first, which is tricky since it wrecks anything nearby and it chooses its battles with M9. You can't tie it up in a challenge with a fire ward character and it just generates so much combat res. Even if you win by one or two it won't break.

That's a lot of pros and few cons.

It's a badly designed unit that feels like an afterthought in the chaos dwarf list. I've seen it eat easily 5 times it's points in combat units and characters while hit on two flanks and kill them all. Literally it can take on an army and win. It's actually made the hellpit abomination seem "not that bad".

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

It isn't. The Chosenstar doesn't flop 33% of the time straight off the bat, with further botched rolls being more than capable of making the item nigh-useless. The first time I got the thing off it killed 2 Marauders and got rid of a single power die.

Not really. The majority of results perhaps cause a small handful of wounds, though I'll admit the actual defence aspect of it is often worth the points when it works.

If you can get an Ogre unit within 10 inches of an enemy wizard, you can probably save the 50pts spent on the thing as you're about to eat his face anyway. If your opponent is letting multiple wizards stand within 15 inches of a probable Hellheart, he probably deserves it.

Your going to reference statistics, and how "the average" distance rolled is mediocre, but then go to complain that your opponent rolled low losing 1 on a D6 for P.D? Its quite good, don't reference averages and not take both sides into account. Just because you rolled up a 7, it means it's bad? Any other result would have netted you a a complete negation of the magic phase.

Like I have mentioned earlier in this thread (and in many other posts). Ogres are too cost efficient, contain too little inherent army restrictions while also containing a proliferation of under costed great magic items.

There was supposed to be a reason why you couldn't take two Dispel scrolls anymore, can someone inform Ogres so they stop shutting down 2 magic phases within a game. Hell, the Vortex for H.E auto end the phase, but its 75pts, and their casters cost similarly for worse stats, and successful army composition. Sure their other scrolls, and other mages that can take armor, etc. . . but none can do it as well, and have as much synergy/broken cost-effetiveness as the Butcher, Firebelly, or Slaughtermaster.

[Khorneflakes]

ok so the hellheart and greedyfist is somewhat annoying, glad i run dwarfs then

[Scammel]

Your going to reference statistics, and how "the average" distance rolled is mediocre, but then go to complain that your opponent rolled low losing 1 on a D6 for P.D?

I was illustrating just how easy it is for the thing to do almost nothing at all. There's an awful lot of really rather random rolls for rather an expensive item. I'm sure you'll have noticed how popular Giants are recently. In fact, if the Ogre Stronghold's records are to be believed, it does little to nothing 50% of the time.

Ahhhh.....so because it changes how everyone has to play against the army it's ok.

I've always thought you one of the better generals out there (or at least, one of the more intelligent posters), but having to adapt to enemy tactics is unfair?

[Dreadlordpaul]

Any opponent who doesn't bunker his mage when playing against ogres is a fool and should be easily beaten anyway.

So im dumb because I don't bunker my level 4? Why should i bunker him because of 1 army

[Sexiest_hero]

You do have to change to deal with the army you face, My set up vastly different, if I'm fighting a gun line or not with my Beast men. Or If I'm fighting A living army I break or not. Terrorghiest screams as well. Why should I not Change tactics when facing Ogres?

[Scammel]

So im dumb because I don't bunker my level 4? Why should i bunker him because of 1 army

I think he really means 'anyone who doesn't put his key wizard in a position of safety against Ogres is a fool'.

[Chiron]

I think he really means 'anyone who doesn't put his key wizard in a position of safety against Ogres is a fool'.

Being able to find a position of safety vs ogres is fairly hard though, they move pretty fast and can get enough low cost drops down to dictate where you place everything.