Settings with intelligent orcs/trolls/goblins/ogres

[TheDungen]

ofcourse the likelyhood of the same terreistrial planet forming with twice the volume is much less likely than another planet happening to have a similar continental make-up. especially when you consider as said an infinite amount of alternate realities and 500 billion galaxies in each universe each of the contain from 10^7 to 10^12 (roughly) stars and each star has around 5 worlds. Thats atleast (5*10^9)*(10^7)*5= 2.5*10^17 in the known universe. actually the warhammmr world dont seem all that unlikely our universe any more.

[Cultist of Sooty]

Prior to that there were a precursor to the 40K setting by inserting sci-fi weaponry, in one of the Citadel Journals (could have sworn I read it as a scan over at Stuff of Legends, but can't find it now).

It's here:

http://www.solegends.com/citcomp1/citcomp1016-02.htm

It was in the first Citadel Compendium in 1983. Me and my mates had fun using it to do things like pitting Second World War paratroopers against undead hordes. It's interesting to take a look at the earliest Warhammer rules for bolt guns and so forth.

Anyone wanting to look even further back into the prehistory of 40K should look into Laserburn, featuring Imperial Marines vs. Red Redemptionists. It's got stats for most of the weapons and armour that made it into first edition 40K. I've still got a copy. I keep meaning to try it out for some 40K skirmish gaming sometime. It's still in print. Very old school.

[Awilla the Hun]

In our university's LARP setting, we have a race of intelligent Orks. Despite this, when roleplayed, almost everyone makes them have RED FINGS GO FASTA and shout ORCS! ORCS! ORCS! as a battlecry. They remain one of the most patriotic, if not popular, races.

[Dustfinger]

Goblin tribes can war with Orcs provided the Goblins are numerous (and ambitious) enough.
They're also better crafsmen and traders than Orcs so except the part where they trade with Dwarfs (which seems very un-Warhammery to me to begin with) all of what you said is already part of the background.

Most of it was. It was just a very specific history of the diffrent greenskins belonging to their own tribes and not mixing. Something like goblins were the smartest and sometimes engaged in trade with dwarves. hobgoblins were hunters and orcs were the most aggresive and the orcs low numbers and aggressive tendancies kept everything in status quo. i forget why it was never official lore but I don't think the reason ever had anything to do with what the lore contained.

[Forse]

Why do you guys think that the fantasy races keep their traits across settings? For example, Orcs are usually somewhat savage, even in WoW where they have been made civilized. Do you think it's just a tradition that started with Tolkien, or do you think that kind of culture naturally suits them?

I'm inclined to think it's just a matter of tradition. Take Dwarfs, for example. To this day, they are portrayed as tough, gruff mountaindwellers. As I see it, the reason they are usually described as this must be because of their roots in Tolkien and mythology. Same goes for Orcs, I imagine.

What do you think?

[Urgat]

Stereotypes. In fantasy, an orc is a brutal, evil creature. Designs may vary according to preferences, but at heart, that's how it is. Even the Warcraft orcs started that way. Only with Warcraft 3 did they start giving "but it's not their fault!" excuses. Currently, in WoW, they're back to that, too. I understand that the whole story behind the upcoming expansion is to bring down the evil warboss again.

[TheDungen]

Well i'm pretty sure Tolkien invented orcs so no use looking for them in mythology.

[Arnizipal]

Well i'm pretty sure Tolkien invented orcs so no use looking for them in mythology.

The word Orc predates Tolkien though. It was some sort of demon IIRC.

[Urgat]

And in the Hobbit, orcs are just a brand of goblins.

[Craze_b0i]

Well i'm pretty sure Tolkien invented orcs so no use looking for them in mythology.

As Arnizipal says the word orc already existed, meaning 'demon'. Tolkiens orcs are also based on goblins (in LOTR they are both the same type of creature), he originally used the word goblin but later changed it to orc because he thought orc sounded better.

[Dustfinger]

TheDungeon is right in the sense that Tolkien invented the orc race in modern fantasy. He took the word orc from a word that means demon but modern orcs are in no way related to their namesake from historical lore. beyond maybe an aggrtesive and savage nature. They are catagorized as a type of goblinoid in most pop culture.

[Craze_b0i]

In Tolkien orc is simply another word for goblin, a rebranding exercise if you like. Though I suppose you can say 'invented' them in the sense he was the first author to start using that name.

[AlexHolker]

Getting back to the original topic: I far prefer settings with intelligent monstrous races. I don't like orcs, trolls, goblins or ogres, but I do like other inhuman races that are still people and not just walking bags of XP - whether that's dragons, sphinxes, giants or elementals.

Reusing a couple of examples, here are some good and evil dragons that are not just monsters or worse, replacement horses.