Why is everybody getting their knickers in a twist about Empire?

[Damocles8]

I have to say, from what I hear about the new book the new Empire seem like an interesting, fun and diverse army. Yet the reaction from people on here and on a certain Empire dedicated forum that shall remain nameless makes it seem like the World is about to end.

Empire were a pretty boring army before. They were an ugly mix of Dwarf gunlines/engineering, High Elven magic and Skaven/Goblin horde infantry. They lacked a personality of their own.

If the rumours are to be believed however, we now have an army that has a pretty unique selling point - the focus on leaders and commanders. Let's face it, one on one, a human is not going to come out on top against an Orc, Dwarf, Chaos Warrior or Elf. Where humans do excel though is when they work together, led by great tacticians and courageous commanders, working as a well-oiled machine, an army that is truly the sum of its parts and I think the combinations and buffs that can be granted to the otherwise poor Empire infantry to truly make them a force to be reckoned with is a great testament to this idea and is a theme that is so far absent from the other army books, cementing Empire with a playstyle that is uniquely there own.

There seems to be a lot of exciting and potentially interesting combinations in the Empire army between characters and units and the buff-wagons. I for one am really excited to try some of these combos out. It also seems really fluffy to me - humans, outnumbered in a world of horrifying, terrible enemies; yet through combined arms, the brilliance of their commanders and the human spirit they refuse to back down, to concede to better equipped, more powerful foes and can come out on top.

Bring it on!

The problem I have with the rumored changes:

Mortar: it deserved a price increase and a switch to the Black Powder misfire chart, it's strength should've have been touched at all (S3(6) MW D3 with large template, vs S3(9) MW D6 with a small template)

State Troops: The price increase comes from nothing, detachments got worse (counter charge and stand and shot, although they do count towards the parent unit's section of points, but they didn't improve in any way

Handgunners/Crossbows: 9pts for BS3? High Elf Archers are 11 pts with better BS, LD and ASF. Does not compute.

Cannon: I don't think the rumored 20% price hike was worth it, I could see 10% but 20 is a bit much.

I know people will argue that because of the improvements to captains and generals, the addition of wizard mobiles, improved prayers and whatnot, that the point increase to just about every infantry type is justified, that's like punishing Peter, because Paul came up and hit him.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Listen. The point of rebalancing the army books is to make the game more fun and more fair. Prices will by necessity change. Template weapons got much much better this edition, so their cost MUST go up.

And your point is...? Nobody, not a single soul anywhere on this world has expressed any negativity or suprise about that. It's the combination of this AND a lot more that worries some, and legitimately so. Let us vent steam instead of playing behaviour police. All those vintage arguments about whines and complaints can be turned around so easily: "Everybody" is peeing his pants with unfettered joy before playing a game. Those are platitudes, or hyperbolic impressions at the best of times. Players will have different opinions at each and every step, even after a thousand games, and people everywhere complain about the weather or the government or food or the local soccer club.

It's specious reasoning to price things in this edition of prices from the last. ... To argue the value of something, you need to look at current conditions and factors not complain that it was cheaper in Grandpa's day.

When I look at Skaven, I am looking at current conditions and current factors, and that's just one of them. Pricing things only in relation to 8th edition and its books is often hailed as a way to balance the game. Well, it's not. Au contraire, at this glacial pace it increases imbalance for a long time to come, and when the gap closes and finally becomes extinct, a new BRB will hand us all a new deck.

[Boddicker]

I like some part. I'm a bit stumped that there is no War Wagon as it seems. And I dislike some parts (such as the legs of the demigryphs and the ridiculously HUEG griffon.) The Mortar is typical GW. It's broken! It needs a fix! There are two possibilities! So we'll DOUBLEFIX it, that'll make it DOUBLE BALANCED, right? But I shrug, take the parts that I like and move on.
This really isn't important enough to get upset about it.

I'm just starting my Empire army but that was my understanding as well. They should have either lowered the strength or raised the points; both seems like overkill.

I'm also kind of upset about flaggies. Raising the points on a unit that is basically self destructing every turn seems ridiculous.

[Damocles8]

If the army book writers thought that certain items should've gone up in price across the board, wouldn't they have done that in the erratas that came out with 8th?

[Spiney Norman]

All your points are invalid, that item is from a 7th ed book.

A book that is largely recognised as having been developed alongside the 8th edition rules and with them in mind. Besides which, we are talking about one of the worst units in the skaven arsenal, I don't think the comparison is invalid. The mortar is noticeably worse than One of the worst units in the skaven army book.

But even stand alone, the mortar is a lot of points for a machine with no discernible purpose, and even if you do compare it to other 8e warmachines like the SSC or rock lobber it still looks rubbish.

Damocles8, instances of GW changing points in an errata are extremely rare, and only in the case of something that causes serious problems in the game (such as the power scroll). Hopefully they will realise that what they have done to the mortar really IS that bad and will errata it either to cost about 50pts, or put it back up to str 3.

[SYN Ace]

Sadly, you have to compare 8th edition books with 7th editions books because that's what you're playing against for the next few years. I even hesitate to call something a 7th edition book. To me it's the current book for the foreseeable future. I mean, 8th edition has been out, what, 2 years now and how many books still to go -- like 10 or 11? From GW's standpoint, it makes marketing sense, but to players, the glacial pace can be maddening. The last of those books will come out just in time for the next edition at which point the cycle all starts over (well, except for the Wood Elves - I think they're stuck in army hell).

[Spiney Norman]

Sadly, you have to compare 8th edition books with 7th editions books because that's what you're playing against for the next few years. I even hesitate to call something a 7th edition book. To me it's the current book for the foreseeable future. I mean, 8th edition has been out, what, 2 years now and how many books still to go -- like 10 or 11? From GW's standpoint, it makes marketing sense, but to players, it's maddening. The last of those books will come out just in time for the next edition at which point the cycle all starts over (well, except for the Wood Elves - I think they're stuck in army hell).

Actually they almost always reach the new edition with 4-5 books not getting their update, so it's likely that some armies will still be using an army book released under 7th edition when 9th rolls around. Hopefully all the armies currently languishing with 6th edition books (dwarfs, Brets, welfs) will get new books before ninth, it would suck to be using a book that was 3 editions out of date. Though I'm thinking that wood elves might end up in that position, there hasnt even been a hint of a rumour that a new book for them is started and if the normal 4 year edition cycle holds we'll get 9th edition in 2014

[Jack of Blades]

Hopefully they will realise that what they have done to the mortar really IS that bad and will errata it either to cost about 50pts, or put it back up to str 3.

Wait, what? they reduced it to S2 and raised the points? I don't remember whether it uses the large template or the small template - did they make it use the small template where it previously used the large template too? if it uses the large template it's still overnerfed but at least not completely horrible. But if it now uses the small template...

[Haravikk]

I think the problem is more that people are focused on what seem to be the negative aspects; for me I'm fairly hopeful as I've found all the 8th edition lists pretty good so far (with minor niggles here and there). There are certainly some concerns about some of the new stuff, but I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll still be a good all-round army, and just have some more interesting elements to mix and match, and more clearly defined roles for things. I'm still a bit dubious about the point of the magic altar things, but it sounds like the unit buffs may be the biggest advantage, rather than dominating the magic phase or such.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I think the problem is more that people are focused on what seem to be the negative aspects

If that is true, then why start threads like these? Why do people then tell us that this book is fun, powerful and interesting, was about time, and will go down in the history of army books as an epitome of balance? The first page shows post after post of positive reactions and people attacking ghosts.

Something has to give.

Having said that, I don't really see any positive aspects except Demigryphs. The circus wagons look relatively frail, and State Troops...well, they're a wee bit better at losing combats apparently IF that character survives. HtL looks nifty until you realize that you need to be steadfast, which at increased prices and points spent on a decently protected Captain becomes a lot less likely.

Okay, I admit that the prayers look better. Then again, you're going to autolose one WP or the AL from the frog scroll now, and they aren't that hard to kill before your unit can attack.

[devilmixer]

I am like a child at christmas, waiting for this book, but I hope I wont need the wiz mobiles or generals for it to work, the mortar thing seems over done, but never used them before so nothing will change it seams( I havent played empire in 8th yet)

[RanaldLoec]

Not even read the darn book, what a bunch whining, alarmist, over the top rubbish.

Warseer seems to be a haven of daily mail type readers who scream blue murder at the slightest change to an army book.

Until you play a good few games with a new book stop screaming its the end of the Empire.

Wait to read the blooming BOOK rather than basing your "expert" OPINION on incomplete rumours. As that's all it is your opinion not an irrefutable fact.

It's not like we weren't expecting a minor change hell that would nark me off far more than a book where allot changes. At least I'm paying for a new army rather than the same boring list with a few tweaks.

I will base my opinion on

1) A thorough read of the book

2) Multiple games testing new lists, items and units.

NOT ON RUMOURS ALONE. I'm not saying the Empire isn't unplayable just I'm waiting to base my opinion on facts not rumour and speculations.

People may not be taking flagellants but there's a load of people acting like them.

[Petey]

This is a disingenuous post. He is comparing an item in the current empire army book with an item in the current skaven army book. OBVIOUSLY current items between two armies can be compared, because they have to fight each other.

You design to have a well balanced game. If you game isn't well balanced your design has failed.(Also, you should strive for good internal balance among the difference choices within an army)

It is totally honest not disingenuous in any way. Current v Current is not accurate, he compared a 7 to an 8, while both are legal, one is "grandfathered." And while it would be better if they just scrapped all the 7th books and released all the 8th books at the same time, they just aren't going to do that. Your second point I agree with.

And your point is...? Nobody, not a single soul anywhere on this world has expressed any negativity or suprise about that. It's the combination of this AND a lot more that worries some, and legitimately so. Let us vent steam instead of playing behaviour police. All those vintage arguments about whines and complaints can be turned around so easily: "Everybody" is peeing his pants with unfettered joy before playing a game. Those are platitudes, or hyperbolic impressions at the best of times. Players will have different opinions at each and every step, even after a thousand games, and people everywhere complain about the weather or the government or food or the local soccer club.

When I look at Skaven, I am looking at current conditions and current factors, and that's just one of them. Pricing things only in relation to 8th edition and its books is often hailed as a way to balance the game. Well, it's not. Au contraire, at this glacial pace it increases imbalance for a long time to come, and when the gap closes and finally becomes extinct, a new BRB will hand us all a new deck.

It's not a platitude or hyperbolic impression at all. If you had compared the rumored mortar to the cost and benefit to a rock lobba or a screaming skull catapult I wouldn't have any cross thing to say. I just personally don't believe comparing it to any of the old books is worthwhile, from a pricing pov. As to the glacial pace that we recieve army books, i'm certainly sympathetic (I have a wood elf army) but I'm sticking by my guns that we can't plan the future on the past, and certainly I see the balance in 8th to be far superior than in 7th, so I'm going to ignore the 7th books for the purposes of arguments of "how things should be" (fluff excluded of course)

A book that is largely recognised as having been developed alongside the 8th edition rules and with them in mind. Besides which, we are talking about one of the worst units in the skaven arsenal, I don't think the comparison is invalid. The mortar is noticeably worse than One of the worst units in the skaven army book.

But even stand alone, the mortar is a lot of points for a machine with no discernible purpose, and even if you do compare it to other 8e warmachines like the SSC or rock lobber it still looks rubbish.

Damocles8, instances of GW changing points in an errata are extremely rare, and only in the case of something that causes serious problems in the game (such as the power scroll). Hopefully they will realise that what they have done to the mortar really IS that bad and will errata it either to cost about 50pts, or put it back up to str 3.

I don't think that the skaven book was developed with a full set of working 8th ed rules. I think it had some of the rules they were planning in mind, but I don't think either was fully fleshed out. I admit I could be very wrong.

As to your point of it not being as valuable as a SSC, I'm going to refrain from guessing, as I haven't seen the rest of the book, but if it's around a 100 pts, and is a large template at s2 AP, I would include it in my armies. s2 is less of a big deal when you can wound any damned thing on a 6. Additionally, the big template is much more valuable in this environment of hordes, especially considering that the small plate can get 21 hits, the large one, I 've yet to figure out the number of hits it can get, but I m guessing 50 or so (effectively). If the opponent fields hordes (which mine do), I would be willing to pay for the mortar (hits one in three shots, deviates the other two, probably getting me another 20 or so hits) as 100pts for about 70 str 2 hits seems like a good deal to me.

[TheAmazingAntman]

Empire were a pretty boring army before. They were an ugly mix of Dwarf gunlines/engineering, High Elven magic and Skaven/Goblin horde infantry. They lacked a personality of their own.

This statement is insane.

I'm curious why no one, to this point, has mentioned that this statement is insane.

You could make a similar statement about every other army in the freaking game. Oh Brettonia? They're just an ugly mix of High Elf Cavalry, and Skaven/Goblin horde infantry. Oh Lizardmen? They're an ugly mix of High Elf magic, Chaos Warrior tough infantry, and Skaven style skirmishers. Every army in the game is amalgamation of unit types that develop into a (hopefully) unique playstyle. To say that any one army isn't unique because they share a similar style unit with another army is madness...or at the very least a very poor arguement.

Adding "gee-wiz" gadgets to a bad list doesn't suddenly make it cool or have flavor...the reason a lot of the empire "old guard" got into the army was good old slash and puff state troops backed up by artillery...When this combo got worse some of them got upset, it's not completely illogical.

So yeah, tons of Empire players hate their new book...let them vent.

[GodlessM]

Something needs to be cleared up here; nobody is disputing anybody's right to vent their disappointment. When a person comes on and says, 'oh, these rumours make the book look unflattering to me, I'm disappointed', then nobody is going to likely have a problem with it. The problem arises with the bucket load of people that came on, saw one thing in a vacuum, and immediately said this made Empire the weakest book ever and they are selling their armies, all before seeing any other information. Many of these people did this right after claiming they aren't competitive and just use what they like, and then proceeded to continuously post over and over trolling posts about how the army they never played yet sucked, adding nothing to the posts. This has left a bad taste in many people's mouths and is the sort of thing that has given Warseer its negative reputation. As for the coutner argument that people are being positive prematurely, the difference is people have said one bad unit makes the army unplayable and they are selling up, whereas no one has said the army is super broken and they are starting it because of that. Quite simply, the bad reactions have been way too overstated and injected with hyperbole while the optimism has usually been laced with realism. At this late stage now that we have most of the information, it has just come back to that sour taste, and people would rather discuss the book rather than hear the same whine they heard a few days ago (I believe one guy even copy-pasted one of his whines so it would resurface).

Empire players feel kinda of cheated mostly due to that fact we had a idea of the direction they were going with Empire with the initial FAQ that came out at the beginning of 8th...I mean Engineers that can help Artillery within 3" is something we have been asking for since 6th and we got it! Given the focus on infantry in this edition we were expecting point drops for them and instead we got point increases on everything except spearmen. We still get the Detachment rule but with the way it worked completly twisted to the point I'm thinking it might be better to just save the point to increase the size of my parent.

Hold the line on captains and GOTE with a point increase? We didn't want that rule at all. We would have been happy if the Captain dropped 10pt and the GOTE dropped 15.

I could go on but it sum up alot of our feelings, it all boils down to that fact that it feels like this book was designed by someone who really REALLY has no idea how the empire army plays.

The main problem here is the use of the royal 'we'. Fact is, you are speaking for yourself, not all of us, so come down from the horse. As for the FAQ's being a hint of the direction they were going to go; according to what? The FAQs were to make the 7th edition books more compatible with 8th edition until a new book could be done, not to show what was in store for everyone. If you are disappointed by your own assumption that's your business but it neither means that the rest of us were silly enough to make such an assumption nor that we share your views; then again maybe it is just me and my ilk as I'd rather not make your mistake of thinking I know what everyone else is thinking.

[Damien 1427]

Not even read the darn book, what a bunch whining, alarmist, over the top rubbish.

For what it's worth, one person "moaning" about it has. And as has been stated, gushing over it without having read it makes as much sense as moaning about it.

Like yourself, I'm more interested in reading it for myself, but I will also take on board what people who have read it are saying. It doesn't sound hugely encouraging, and whilst I'm compelled to take Mortars and Handgunners and Engineers regardless because of the theme I chose, I'm concerned what I do like (Artillery, Handguns, Engineers) is getting a kick in the crotch to compell me to buy the Shiny New Hotness (Which I was going to buy anyway) which is, apparently, rather swish in the rules department (In addition to being lovely models). I'd rather have what came before still be good (Not as good in the case of the Mortar), and the new stuff to be good as well, encouraging me to buy everything instead of just ham-fistedly trying to funnel me into buying the Wizard Pimpwagons and the Demigryph Knights.

[loveless]

This statement is insane.

I'm curious why no one, to this point, has mentioned that this statement is insane.

Given the poster's handle is "McBoner" I wasn't expecting any semblance of sanity from the statement.

---

I think the Flagellants are bothering me the most - I can't think of a good reason to ever use them. I wasn't even aware they were "OP" enough to get toned down...ah well, I suppose I can always have the models dragging the Popemobile or something. I'm going to be interested in the new tactics that get posted up to see if anyone gets decent mileage out of Flagellants (and Mortars...and Militia...and maybe Engineers...).

Thinking of Engineers...have they ever been a decent choice? I know they were popular in the 8th Core/7th Empire combo, but prior to that, were they getting taken? A Hero slot was a lot to give up, and given the cheapness/efficiency of other hero choices now, those Hero points are going to be better spent on Priests, Mages, and Hunters. Then again, maybe I'm still just annoyed that a HLR-wielding Engineer still can't hit the broad side of a barn...

[TheAmazingAntman]

Point taken Loveless.

You win this round.

On the topic of Flagellants...they just feel over engineered (no pun intended). In 6th edition they were simply T4, frenzied, unbreakable troops, and that captured the feel of grim yet utterly insane unit of religious fanatics (and the unit saw a good ammount of play)...every unit doesn't need their own freaking chart to roll on.

That's my personal problem with most of the book (and a lot of 8th ed.) every thing just feels over engineered.

[ihavetoomuchminis]

Thinking of Engineers...have they ever been a decent choice? I know they were popular in the 8th Core/7th Empire combo, but prior to that, were they getting taken? A Hero slot was a lot to give up, and given the cheapness/efficiency of other hero choices now, those Hero points are going to be better spent on Priests, Mages, and Hunters. Then again, maybe I'm still just annoyed that a HLR-wielding Engineer still can't hit the broad side of a barn...

Yes, it's a pity master engineers don't have BS 5. It would make them worth with a HLR. But then 4 of them in the same army would be OP.

I think the best use for engineers right now is, in first place, supporting a Hellblaster volley gun. I've been doing some numbers, and it's amazing the reliability it gives to the Hellblaster. You can re-roll 1 artillery dice and give the warmachine its BS. So...when you shoot the hellblaster you roll 3 artillery dices. One ! roll, re-roll that one. One 2 roll, re-roll that one, at worst you'll make half the shoots, but you have way more odds of improving the roll. 2 ! rolls, re-roll one and avoid the Missfire Roll. 3 ! rolls, don't re-roll any, and just shoot 30 shots at BS4 . The engineer makes the Hellblaster way more reliable, and more close to making around 20 shots (at BS4) per turn, instead around 12 shots. It's really good.

With the Hellstorm is not that usefull, but still. You can re-roll the artillery dice (avoiding the missfires, or if you roll 2 or more HIT rolls but a 10 on artillery dice, re-rolling it to go for a 4, and with BS4, don't scatter at all), or re-roll a scatter dice that was about to land the small area on one of your units.

I think it's not worth on cannons nor Mortars. For its points, is better to just buy another cannon.

[Spiney Norman]

I don't think that the skaven book was developed with a full set of working 8th ed rules. I think it had some of the rules they were planning in mind, but I don't think either was fully fleshed out. I admit I could be very wrong.

As to your point of it not being as valuable as a SSC, I'm going to refrain from guessing, as I haven't seen the rest of the book, but if it's around a 100 pts, and is a large template at s2 AP, I would include it in my armies. s2 is less of a big deal when you can wound any damned thing on a 6. Additionally, the big template is much more valuable in this environment of hordes, especially considering that the small plate can get 21 hits, the large one, I 've yet to figure out the number of hits it can get, but I m guessing 50 or so (effectively). If the opponent fields hordes (which mine do), I would be willing to pay for the mortar (hits one in three shots, deviates the other two, probably getting me another 20 or so hits) as 100pts for about 70 str 2 hits seems like a good deal to me.

If you are firing the mortar at elf Spearmen you might make your points back, if you are firing at skaven slaves on the other hand, you will make less than half the points you invest, you're also not taking into account the chance of a misfire into your equation and bear in mind two turns of shooting is the norm before up you a in combat, against an enemy that is trying to get into combat with you quickly, possibly only 1 turn.

I just can't see a mortar ever making its points back unless it is shooting at empire flaggelants, and I can't see them ever being fielded under the new book.

EDIT: I've just had my goblins out, a large template can score a maximum of 45 hits on a horde unit of 20mm base models, assuming the target horde has at least 7 ranks, if the ranks are less than this then it reduces thus: 40 hits for a 6 rank horde, 35 hits for a 5 ranks horde and 28 hits for a 4 rank horde. Obviously this does not take into account incomplete ranks.