SoM Monster: Changing Fly for Unbreakable?

[Malorian]

Unbreakable means little to a model that rarely loses combat...

[Leogun_91]

I seriously think that T6 and Ld 8 are the minnimum acceptable for something that embodies the spirit of Dwarf Race in moving stone.

Exalted Great Unclean one or Exalted Keeper of Secrets. They already exchange flying for unbreakable and fit OK (though you probably should skip casting spells and just use their wizard level to dispel and take fulucrums). An Arachnarok also fits your requirements for stats.

The simplest way to do it is however to just not fly, ask if it can be a bit cheaper without fly but if no, just go with it, exchanging fly for unbreakable seems harder to get right than making the monster from scratch.

But as your set for the dragon lets get to the new pts. Well we start with a great dragon, thats 390, a brood horror pays 25 for a roughly equivalent breath weapon so thats 365 for a great dragon without a breath attack, a character can get fly for 50 so if we go by that we´re down at 315, but then we get to unbreakable, unbreakable is almost unavailable but dwarf artillery crew can upgrade stubborn to unbreakable for 20 and stubborn costs 35 so we´re at 370, but then that price was for warmachine crews to get unbreakable and that's hardly as useful as a massive monster getting it. Empire does however pay 50pts for a one-use insane courage so the worth of unbreakble is extremely hard to price, lets just add a d100 as we can't calculate unbreakable and you'll be forced to playtest it to come to any conclusion anyways, I rolled a measly five and place its new price at 375pts for a great dragon without breathweapon and fly but with unbreakable instead. (For alternatives an Exalted Great unclean one without magic level should cost 615 and an exalted keeper of secrets without wizardlevel the same if you go by the cost of making a daemonprince (WoC) a level 4).

[Skopey]

Rather than making it unbreakable why not similar rules to the Unstable rule?

[Darnok]

If you want to keep the dragon idea, why not go for an dwarfen airship? The flying ability is right there, all the "magic" shooting can be done be guns, and the fighting can surely be done by Dwarfs. If you can get your hands on a Malakai model, why not take a few more Slayers to do the fighting? Sounds like a great opportunity for an awesome model, with Slayers jumping into their (almost) certain death from above.

Having said that, now I feel highly tempted to do that myself.

[Tayrod]

To answer the OP's question, I guess it all depends on the movement value of the foot-dragon-golem. It it's movement 4 I'd say Unbreakable would be a nerf, if it's movement 8, It would be a boost. Movement 6 seems just about right though. It gives the opponent time to whittle it down for a round or two, and gives him a fair chanse of feeding it thrash (the flightless Unbreakable dragon, might not break, but it's way easier to feed thrash, and dictates the battle a whole lot less, IMO).

So yeah, I would have voted for "pts stay the same" if the poll were working (Im guessing the dragon has m6?)

[DareX2]

If you want to keep the dragon idea, why not go for an dwarfen airship? The flying ability is right there, all the "magic" shooting can be done be guns, and the fighting can surely be done by Dwarfs. If you can get your hands on a Malakai model, why not take a few more Slayers to do the fighting? Sounds like a great opportunity for an awesome model, with Slayers jumping into their (almost) certain death from above.

Having said that, now I feel highly tempted to do that myself.

I gotta say, that makes far more sense than using a dragon to try and represent a stone golem. I also love the imagery of Slayers "deploying" from the deck of an airship!

[Dorack]

If you want to keep the dragon idea, why not go for an dwarfen airship?
Having said that, now I feel highly tempted to do that myself.

First, your's is a cool idea. But are rules for airship already... I want rules for a Dwarven Ancestor Rune-animated Statue...

If I could have posted the rules here, omiting they come from a dragon in the first place I would have done so.

About using Unstability, thank you for the input. I do believe cumbling when combat goes against your favor is not very dwarf-like.

Leogun_91, thank you for your analysis!

[Darnok]

What speaks against a Bonegrinder Giant or a Chaosmammoth? They are both... well, enormous. Some of their actions are a bit unpredictable, as you could imagine with a giant stone construct. And ruleswise you wouldn't need to argue at all.

[Gaargod]

I'd agree that actually, unbreakable is probably worth less than fly - but since it's 'homebrew', you should always charge a premium to stop people complaining (unless you've playtested it). In which case, the price is fine. The damn thing shouldn't be losing combat so unbreakable really isn't that big a deal, especially as it's already Ld8.

I agree with literally everyone else though - you clearly came into this with 'storm dragon is the right choice!' and have therefore ignored everyone's suggestions.

Seriously consider the Ork Rogue Idol. Ideally, you should get the book, but Forgeworld did release the experimental rules for free earlier, so here's a link to that.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Download.../rogueidol.pdf

[Bloosquig]

While "crumbling" isn't very Dwarfy it's EXTREMELY in character for animated statues and anything else controlled by magic. I'd throw my vote in for using a modified Tomb King monster. Give it the same -1 to crumble always -2 if by BSB rule and toss some better armor on it to cover for the fact that you can't heal with magic.

In the end it's all up to you and your group obviously. Good luck finding a good model and enjoy the game!

[DareX2]

Here's my question: if you're so specific about what you want your golem to have, why not just draft the rules from scratch? You're part of a group that is expecting you to take something in your list that you can't normally take. Obviously you're playing with a friendly group, so why not make your own monster?

[Dorack]

I did thought about the Monster rules and stats before-hand, and then went to look for something as similar as possible, only then arriving into dragon as an option. Here is what I thought about. I did not posted thin in OP because I wanted to concentrate on the original question about swapping fly for Unbreakable. I will update the OP now.

Starting with a Staple Dwarf unit, a Dwarf Thane with GW with Gromril Armor + Rune of Stone, I imagined it converted into the Ancestor Statue, so their I began from there and decided his stats would be a minimum. Also drawing from some iconic elements from other Dwarf units, like Warmachines and Slayer and checking other sources like Tomb King Constructs.

Basic Stats

• M 3-6 (not too much speed, but certainly would have larger legs than dwarfs)
• WS 6+ As per Dwarf Thane
• BS - (irrelevant since it will not have missile weapons)
• S 6+ As per Dwarf Hammerers or Thane w/GW
• T 7+ As per Dwarf Warmachines
• W 5+ using Tomb King Constructs as guideline, also Anvil wounds
• I 3 or less As per Dwarf Thane
• A 3-5 As per Dwarf Thane and Tomb King Constructs
• Ld 9 As per Dwarfs humble Warrior

Must have special rules:

• AS 3+ or similar defense As per Dwarf Thane with Gromril + Stone or Ironbreakers
• Unbreakable As per Dwarf Slayers
• Large Target using Tomb King Constructs as guideline
• Terror using Tomb King Constructs as guideline

Interesting posible special rules

• Old Grumbler (Longbeards special ability) or similar troop inspiring ability
• Something antimagic? Something rune-smiting inspired by the Anvil?

With this stats and rules in mind, I started looking for the best fit, specially one that required as little rule fiddling as possible, to avoid rules arguments. Only then the rules for Dragon came as natural, specially when they are the only Monsters in SoM that have Kinship with Dwarfs and all the rest of armies, so it was not like I was choosing a terribly obscure monster and plugging it in my army. I could even choose Storm Dragon type to mimic the rumesmiting ability. With Dragon the only problem was fly and unbreakable, and hence this thread.

As I said, I tried to focus this thread on the point adjustment between Fly and Unbreakable. But here is my reasoning behind it.

[Athlan na Dyr]

As several people have said, the rogue idol really does fit:

M 3-6 (not too much speed, but certainly would have larger legs than dwarfs) M7. Doubt people will complain if you lower it though
WS 6+ As per Dwarf Thane On a monster? Made of stone? You've got to be joking! Idol has WS4, which ain't bad
BS - (irrelevant since it will not have missile weapons)
S 6+ As per Dwarf Hammerers or Thane w/GW Strength 8!
T 7+ As per Dwarf Warmachines Toughness 7!
W 5+ using Tomb King Constructs as guideline, also Anvil wounds 8 Wounds!
I 3 or less As per Dwarf Thane Initiative 2! Eh, its big and stone-y
A 3-5 As per Dwarf Thane and Tomb King Constructs 4 Attacks! Right in the range you want
Ld 9 As per Dwarfs humble Warrior Leadership 10!


Must have special rules:

AS 3+ or similar defense As per Dwarf Thane with Gromril + Stone or Ironbreakers AS 2+!
Unbreakable As per Dwarf Slayers Stubborn. Close enough!
Large Target using Tomb King Constructs as guideline Well, yeah
Terror using Tomb King Constructs as guideline Its got that as well! Plus Killing Blow, Impact hits and a dwarfish desire to go and hit things!

The only problem with the rogue idol is the 'rogue' nature of it - it can go and hit your own units (on a one in six when it can't charge the enemy)
I'd be fine with a drop in movement and a slight points increase (420?) to get rid of the animosity-esque rules (though it would still have to charge if it could).
Other than that, it is the perfect thing to represent an animated poece of rock by virtue of... well... being an animated piece of rock

[Dorack]

As several people have said, the rogue idol really does fit:


The only problem with the rogue idol is the 'rogue' nature of it - it can go and hit your own units (on a one in six when it can't charge the enemy)
I'd be fine with a drop in movement and a slight points increase (420?) to get rid of the animosity-esque rules (though it would still have to charge if it could).
Other than that, it is the perfect thing to represent an animated poece of rock by virtue of... well... being an animated piece of rock

I did thought about the Rogue Idol. But both the fact that there is no "legal way" to plug it in Dwarf Army and it can charge fellow Dwarf units quite troublesome. How can you gauge how many points that ability entails? The Stubborn is ok, but still makes it affectable by panic and it's a big deal in 8th ed. Killing blow is nice of course and Impact hits are characterful indeed. I would probably go with it if the Dragon rules were not available.

[Arnizipal]

Can a mod help me to set up the poll correctly?

Sorry, a forum glitch sometimes messes up Polls (like it did in this case).

EDIT: Fixed

[Tarliyn]

A giant stone statue shouldn't have a high WS imo. Also it should probably int. 1.

If your group is willing to let ya edit rules why wouldnt they just let you create your own rules?


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[Dorack]

Thanks for fixing the poll!

I guess they would let me create the monster, and in a way I did, but I would have no idea how to price it correctly. That´s why I´m trying to pick a SoM monster and adapt it with as little tweaking as possible.

[Thommy H]

Here: use this.

[Dorack]

Wow! Thanks a lot! Where did you got this from?

[Thommy H]

My brain. This thread got me thinking about it, and if I get something in my head I need to get it out there or it rattles around forever. It's based (quite heavily) on the Tomb Kings' Warsphinx, but replaces Thundercrush with the Unstoppable rule. It also has higher Strength and Ld, hence the points hike. I think it should be fair - the options may be a bit wonky, if anything, so use them at your peril. Magmaborn, especially, is potentially quite powerful - depending on your interpretation of Blazing Body, it makes it immune to anything non-magical that's less than Strength 6. I reasoned it's no worse than Ethereal though.