Mortarion - to DP or not to DP?

[Adra]

Hello fellow Seers. just a quick one thats getting me a bit confused.

Me and a few mates are putting together a little Siege of Emperor's Palace Apoc game in a few months and i decided to dust off my Death Guard for it.

Now alot of people have alot to do to get their armies up to scratch, but not me, so i figured i would give converting Mortarion a go. You know how it is, we all want to give Primarche converting a go but we all want to do it justice as well. Figured i would just go for it and i have plenty of time.

But I ran into a little snag. We have, as a group, agreed that the Primarch's should be bigger that normal space marines, but not massive, so we are going for head and shoulders taller than a terminator model. This is just for aesthetics and helps keep the peace. Obviously this does not apply to the Daemon Primarche's who were at the siege, and thats when I hit the snag...

...was Mortarion a Daemon Prince during the Siege of Emperor's Palace? I know that him and his Death Guard were corrupted in the warp on the way to Terra, so he must have been correpted to, but I cant find anything about him being a full Daemon Prince. The only bits of info I can find say that he was elevated to Daemonhood once he dominated the Plague Planet, well after the events of the Heresy, yet many people I talk to seem to assume he is a DP during the seige and maybe they know something i dont.

Anyway, if anyone could shine some light on this I would be most greatful

[Lupe]

As far as I remember from the Death Guard Index Astartes, no, he was not a daemon prince on Terra. He was elevated to daemonhood as a reward for cultivating the Plague Planet, after fleeing to the Eye of Terror.

[Reivax26]

Lupe is correct. I have read the story of the Siege of the Emperors Palace from the White Dwarf when it was first published countless times and no the Primarchs who had fallen to Chaos had not been turned into Daemons at that time. If any of them had accomplished it I think Angron would have been first anyway.

[Inquisitor Engel]

Lupe is correct. I have read the story of the Siege of the Emperors Palace from the White Dwarf when it was first published countless times and no the Primarchs who had fallen to Chaos had not been turned into Daemons at that time. If any of them had accomplished it I think Angron would have been first anyway.

Funny, I recall Angron definitely being referenced as such and Fulgrim's already as-good-as (being possessed and all). Not to mention that if Magnus shows up, he definitely will be.

[Reivax26]

I stand corrected. Indeed Angron was already a Daemon Prince.

[Adra]

Thanks guys, that clears things up. Normal size Mortarion it is

[Iron_Lord]

Thanks guys, that clears things up. Normal size Mortarion it is

Weren't the four Daemon Primarch models originally made for Epic, back when they were portraying the battles of Terra, very early on?

[Lord-Caerolion]

Yes, but that's since been changed to only Angron having ascended before reaching Terra, with Fulgrim changing at some unknown time afterwards, same with Magnus, and Mortarion ascending after he claims the new Barbarus.

[aim]

Wasnt it stated that mortarion was tall and slender? Or am I mis-remembering, its been a while since I read the early heresy books, but for soe reason, in my head, hes taller than most primarchs... If that has and relevance to your modeling.

[randian]

Yes, but that's since been changed to only Angron having ascended before reaching Terra, with Fulgrim changing at some unknown time afterwards, same with Magnus, and Mortarion ascending after he claims the new Barbarus.

In the new fluff, Magnus has already lost his body, if not already a Daemon Prince, long before the Siege of Terra. That is clear at the end of A Thousand Sons. Since it is not normally possible for mortals to maintain spiritual coherence in the warp without a body (a state that normally occurs only at death), that suggests Magnus had ascended to DP while hibernating in that pyramid, just before he reappears to his Astartes on the Planet of the Sorcerers. I do wonder, however, how Magnus could have hidden his attainment of such a corrupt state from his men, since they are shown to be sensitive to it earlier in the book but do not react when Magnus shows up without his body.

[Johnmclane]

I think typhos have pretty good rules to represent a non-DP Mortarion. Only worries are the lack of Eternal warrior.

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[Adra]

I think typhos have pretty good rules to represent a non-DP Mortarion. Only worries are the lack of Eternal warrior.

Nah hes no good for that as Typhus will be right there with him, and that would make Mortarion only as good as a normal marine.

The other reason this came up was because we are thinking of using some pre-made rules for the primarches (maybe Tempus Fugitives but cant remember) but all the pre-made rules had Mortarion as a Daemon Prince at the battle of Terra.

[Reivax26]

Model wise since they depict him as a tall thin figure I wonder if it would be possible with some green stuff and a dremel to cut the bottom part off of the Nightbringer for the Necrons and use the green stuff to bulk him up a little. Mortarion wielded a Scythe and the Nightbringer is already carrying one.

[Adra]

I've already decided to do a true scale marine as my basis for a normal primarch, and thats the scale our gaming group has agreed on for this game (just so everything looks in scale and we dont get one guy making rogal dorn the size of a house) basicly the normal primarchs wont be bigger than a Fantasy oger.

The Nightbringer/Mortarion i have seen before and again the problem is that it looks more suited to a Daemon Prince size mortarion than a normal size one.

[AndrewGPaul]

Weren't the four Daemon Primarch models originally made for Epic, back when they were portraying the battles of Terra, very early on?

No. 1st edition Epic - Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine - were set just after Horus' death*, as the Imperial forces pushed the rebels back (see "The Imperium" section in the 2st edition Space Marine rulebook). However, the Daemon Primarchs appeared in 2nd edition Epic, which was set in the 41st millennium.

*Well, they were originally. Things got a little confused towards the end, when the Chaos army list appeared in White Dwarf. I suppose that could still represent a late-Heresy traitor force.

[ryng_sting]

The artbooks say Mortarion had been set on the path to daemonhood by the Siege of Terra. At this point, he had already been altered - taller, thinner, as if stretched on a rack. Presumably the process was finished by the time they retreated to the Plague Planet.

There's a picture of him here.

http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k...e_of_Decay.jpg

[lovelessmerc]

I love that picture, he looks so scary and disgusting, but also has a "nobility" and sleek look about him. I wish he would get off his hemroid infested ass and do something in 40k.

[Iron_Lord]

The artbooks say Mortarion had been set on the path to daemonhood by the Siege of Terra. At this point, he had already been altered - taller, thinner, as if stretched on a rack. Presumably the process was finished by the time they retreated to the Plague Planet.

There's a picture of him here.

If he had those wings at the Siege of Terra, I'd say it's pretty close to true Daemon Prince level.

[Adra]

The artbooks say Mortarion had been set on the path to daemonhood by the Siege of Terra. At this point, he had already been altered - taller, thinner, as if stretched on a rack. Presumably the process was finished by the time they retreated to the Plague Planet.

I have seen that picture and its very cool. Thank you for posting it. Its a very handy pic for a convertion but a bit hard to use to determine scale. I dont have access to the artbook so i just want to check specificaly what it says. Is everything you just said in the book? So is he described as taller and thinner or does it just say he is on the path to daemonhood? I am pretty much sure now that he didnt get to full Daemon Prince until well after the Heresy, but what he is like on Terra, and what it specificaly says in the artbook, would be handy.

[DietDolphin]

In the new fluff, Magnus has already lost his body, if not already a Daemon Prince, long before the Siege of Terra. That is clear at the end of A Thousand Sons. Since it is not normally possible for mortals to maintain spiritual coherence in the warp without a body (a state that normally occurs only at death), that suggests Magnus had ascended to DP while hibernating in that pyramid, just before he reappears to his Astartes on the Planet of the Sorcerers. I do wonder, however, how Magnus could have hidden his attainment of such a corrupt state from his men, since they are shown to be sensitive to it earlier in the book but do not react when Magnus shows up without his body.

No Magnus was elevated to Daemonhood (reluctantly) when he gave himself and his legion to Tzeentch after Russ broke his back. He is the first Primarch to become a Daemon Prince (as Prospero was ment to be before Istvaan, but who knows these days after Outcast Dead...).

Angron was Elevated to Daemonhood before the siege too, I think this is going to be covered in the betrayer as the audiobook The butcher's Nails seemed to forshadow (However it may just depict Angron falling to the worship of Khorne, not his elevation).

As others have said Mortarion became a Daemon Prince after making the Plague Planet after the Siege... However,, remember he has already embraced the destroyer plague and nurgle and while not a full blown Daemon Prince, I'm sure he has many "gifts" from Nugle already at the Siege.

Fulgrim I'm not sure about. Lexicanum seems to suggest it was after the Siege though.

Both Lorgar and Perturabo ascended after the Siege while Kurze and Alpharius never ascended.