Size of Old Legions

[Buddha777]

So after finishing Know no Fear we learnt that the Ultramarines, the largest legion, were numbered at 250,000 marines before Calth. As of Know no Fear we also know that the word bearers were numbered at 150,000 and were the second largest legion. So what was the strength of the other legions?

I'm going to try to plot the legions size as the heresy started then as it was fought.

Dark Angels: ~100K
Emperor's Children: ~100k
Iron Warriors: ~100k
White Scars: ~100K
Space Wolves: ~30k
Imperial Fists: ~100k
Night Lords: ~100K
Blood Angels: ~100K
Iron Hands: ~100K
World Eaters: ~100K (~70k post Istvaan)
Ultramarines: ~250k (Possibly as little as ~100k post calth)
Death Guard: ~70k
Thousand Sons: ~10k (~1k post Prospero)
Luna Wolves: ~100k
Word Bearers: ~100k (~150k pre-calth)
Salamanders: ~100k
Raven Guard: ~80 (~5k post Istvaan)
Alpha Legion: ~100K

[shadowhawk2008]

Actually, in the first half of TFH, the Word Bearers are at ~100k. Over the next four decades, until war breaks out at Istvaan and Calth, they undertake a serious recruitment program to put them at ~150-160k, as per one of Dan's video Q&As from last year.

The Raven Guard are known to be at ~80k. Most other legions are ~100k. The Death Guard could have been smaller since they maintained only 7 companies, and the same with the Thousand Sons (9) and the Space Wolves (13). But that's just a guess. Each of the companies could very well have acted like a mega-chapter or something.

[Grit]

The Salamanders were apparently one of the smaller legions also,as they never got split down after the heresy,due to losses taken at Istavan

They only have 7 companies currently also. The Wolves have been stated many times to have been one of the smaller Legions also.

[Sqallum]

yeah, the World Eaters were apparently 70,000 after Istvaan. Yet, at puny Istvaan 3, they were battered down to half strength. That isn't even counting how many tens of thousands of casulties they must have taken at Istvaan 5. Hate these stupid things with the HH series. They should really be able to get their numbers right without freuqntly contradicting each other between books
Sqallum

[Eetion]

The Thousand Sons were comparitively tiny at around 9000.

[Idaan]

The Death Guard could have been smaller since they maintained only 7 companies, and the same with the Thousand Sons (9) and the Space Wolves (13). But that's just a guess. Each of the companies could very well have acted like a mega-chapter or something.

I'm fairly sure that at one point in "A Thousand Sons" most of the companies are gathered in one place and it says that there's ~10.000 of them. I could be wrong though, or the book might not take into account the bloated retconned Legion numbers of Raven's Flight and later books.

[shadowhawk2008]

If the TS have suffered greatly to the flesh-change, then its understandable that they lost a big percentage of their Terran veterans before Magnus "fixed" the gene-seed. Plus, maybe Prospero's aspirant intake is rather wobbly since the gene-seed is still mutated or something.

But yeah, 10k sounds correct, although I'm hazy on the numbers. Been nearly a year since i read the novel.

[Dead.Blue.Clown]

Every time I think "That's it, I'll never need to answer this again..." it comes up like clockwork a few weeks later. I swear, it'll be on my gravestone.

A quick cut and paste, to save us all a few seconds: "The average Legion size was 100,000. All of them, with the exception of the Ultramarines, had "around" 100,000 warriors. The smaller ones - such as the Raven Guard - had around 80,000. The Word Bearers rose to 150,000. But 100,000 was the "average" size of them. They were all huge. Huuuuuuuuuge, I tells ya.

The earlier books (before and including A Thousand Sons) were operating from older canon sources. While writing The First Heretic, I asked at a Horus Heresy meeting if we could nail the proper Legion sizes down. It was agreed by Games Workshop's IP Manager, Alan Merret (responsible for a lot of the HH lore over the years) that they were 100,000 strong, as noted in Horus Heresy: The Collected Visions and the most recent Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

So just multiply the pre-A Thousand Sons novel numbers by 10. Ish."

It's worth noting the anomaly is Prospero Burns, but that was largely written the same time as A Thousand Sons, just released very late.

[Idaan]

Oh, thanks. I knew the change took place around ATS, but couldn't remember if ATS had the old or the new numbers - even under the new they were one of the smaller Legions, right?

[Nazguire]

I still like the Thousand Sons being all of 9000 at Prospero. Highlights how much the flesh change dominated them and almost exterminated them, and the hopelessness situation as the much larger Space Wolves attack Prospero that no matter how awesome their psychic powers, they could never withstand the full brunt of the Space Wolves Legion, Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

I always saw the Death Guard as a 70,000 strong Legion, fitting with their number 7 fixation, each company being 10,000 strong. This goes hand in hand with them enjoying to beat the enemy by absorbing more bullets than the enemy could fire at them making them a smallish Legion. There is no way anyone can tell me that a military organisation who believes in beating the enemy by attrition will have a high number count, unless their recruitment rate is stupendously high, which on a feral world like Barbarus is unlikely.

Raven Guard as 80,000 sounds cool, making them not too tiny and really just a slightly below average Legion. It was only after the Heresy did they have to start looking at preserving numbers at all times and guerilla warfare. Makes sense.

How many Ultramarines got pounded at Calth? I couldn't really tell. They had 200,000 stationed there, with 50,000 off Calth (courtesy of ADB). So if they took 70% ground casualties, that's 140,000 dead...


That's still 60,000 +50,000= 110,000 Ultramarines running around. Not to mention any Ultramarines that were slow getting to Calth, not ordered to Calth etc.

I don't like the idea of the Ultramarines getting almost wiped out though in Know No Fear. Sort of diminishes their victory a bit in my eyes, but each to their own.

The Sons of Horus would be around 100,000 correct? Whilst the Word Eaters would be a small Legion due to their style of warfare and all the ridiculous fighting they were involved in destroying the loyalists from the Legions.

[Soldado]

WE had 70k marines after Istvaan.

[Bonzai]

Every time I think "That's it, I'll never need to answer this again..." it comes up like clockwork a few weeks later. I swear, it'll be on my gravestone.

A quick cut and paste, to save us all a few seconds: "The average Legion size was 100,000. All of them, with the exception of the Ultramarines, had "around" 100,000 warriors. The smaller ones - such as the Raven Guard - had around 80,000. The Word Bearers rose to 150,000. But 100,000 was the "average" size of them. They were all huge. Huuuuuuuuuge, I tells ya.

The earlier books (before and including A Thousand Sons) were operating from older canon sources. While writing The First Heretic, I asked at a Horus Heresy meeting if we could nail the proper Legion sizes down. It was agreed by Games Workshop's IP Manager, Alan Merret (responsible for a lot of the HH lore over the years) that they were 100,000 strong, as noted in Horus Heresy: The Collected Visions and the most recent Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

So just multiply the pre-A Thousand Sons novel numbers by 10. Ish."

It's worth noting the anomaly is Prospero Burns, but that was largely written the same time as A Thousand Sons, just released very late.

DBC- while your here, can you give us any info on how Legion Companies were organized? Squad sizes, organization, etc? We know that they were composed of about 1,000 marines, but little more than that. I know that a lot of people would be interested in learning more about that.

Oh.... And CSM codex you mentioned... Would that be the one that is rumored to be coming out soon?

[shadowhawk2008]

He might have some insight into how WB/WE/NL companies might be organised but all the others? Each legion had its own traditions in that regard.

[Lothlanathorian]

Does the HH series maintain that there were only 1,000 Thousand Sons when Magnus met the Big E or however that originally went? (All I remember is they got their name because there was only 1,000 of them, but, I don't remember specifically where in their history this was an issue, just that it was before the HH)

[Iron_Lord]

Does the HH series maintain that there were only 1,000 Thousand Sons when Magnus met the Big E or however that originally went? (All I remember is they got their name because there was only 1,000 of them, but, I don't remember specifically where in their history this was an issue, just that it was before the HH)

In A Thousand Sons- it comes up right after Magnus "cured" the Flesh Change- and I think it's suggested that they had the name some time before this- but it became "prophetically accurate" at that particular point.

[jareddm3]

While I'm more than happy to accept 100,000 as the average size for most legions (Luna Wolves, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels), with a few above (Space Wolves) and a few below (Raven Guard, Salamanders) I feel a few outliers in either direction are appropriate. Thousand Sons being at the extreme low end feels right given the sheer power that a TS marine has compared to any other legion. And of course Ultramarines at the extreme high end.

[shadowhawk2008]

The Space Wolves were one of the smaller legions. One reason why they only spawned a single successor at the end of the Heresy. They just didn't have that many marines to start with.

[jareddm3]

The Space Wolves were one of the smaller legions. One reason why they only spawned a single successor at the end of the Heresy. They just didn't have that many marines to start with.

Okay so switch them to the low end. The point is while the legions may have a mode around 100,000, they still have a distribution to them.

[Dead.Blue.Clown]

He might have some insight into how WB/WE/NL companies might be organised but all the others? Each legion had its own traditions in that regard.

Yeah. They send me out of the room in HH meetings unless it's one of "my" Legions being discussed, and they don't let me read any of the old lore that I might know anyway from being a fan of the setting. Thanks for fielding that one, mate.

DBC- while your here, can you give us any info on how Legion Companies were organized? Squad sizes, organization, etc? We know that they were composed of about 1,000 marines, but little more than that. I know that a lot of people would be interested in learning more about that.

Oh.... And CSM codex you mentioned... Would that be the one that is rumored to be coming out soon?

It's different for every Legion. The Ultramarines organisation is laid out cleanly and clearly in Know No Fear, in the "1,000 guys in a Company, 10,000 guys in a Chapter" section. Most of the others are divided into formations rather more symmetrical to the modern system, with a little slack either way, being roughly 10 Marines to a squad, 10 squads to a Company, 10 Companies to a Chapter, and so on.

It gets trickier, though.

Any books pre-A Thousand Sons can't be relied on, figures-wise. So for the sake of argument, we'll skip them. The rest do follow a generic pattern (which is outlined in Collected Visions, and has shadows of even older lore), but every Legion runs with it differently. F'rex, the Ultramarines, as noted. The Thousand Sons Chapters (foregoing mentions of size, here) are obviously the Fellowships, and can be various sizes because they're based on skill and ethos, not arbitrary organisational figures. Similarly, the Word Bearers' Chapters are (surprise!) called Chapters, and based on religious outlook and fraternal bonds, and they range in size from a few hundred guys to several thousand. The Dark Angels have the Orders, which is the formal name for Chapters (of which, Paladins are Company and Chapter Champions).

Battalions and Lieutenant Commanders do actually exist, but haven't shown up much yet, and are institutionally enforced strictures that most Legions don't tend to run with on the ground level. They're like the baseline that gets deviated from the moment a primarch takes the helm and does his own thing. With the new Legion sizes set, we may end up seeing more of them when individual books choose how much the Legion runs with them. I wouldn't hold my breath on that, though. They're not core to the process the way the rest is.

This actually goes even deeper, into... some new stuff. I'm not going into it, because... Well, I can't. I'm not trying to be a tool, I'd be fired if I spewed stuff that far in advance, though. Suffice to say, some stuff in the next 2-3 years of the series will explain this a lot better. It's safe to assume that post-A Thousand Sons, with the exception of the Ultramarines, it's all quite traditional. Great Companies and Grand Companies are still being worked into the mix behind the scenes; a lot of this is surprisingly hard to organise because of the conflicting numbers in older lore, coupled with the series itself now retconning older work that complied with those figures.

I know it sucks. I'm not trying to be unhelpful. But it'l be explained, one way or another, in due course - and a forum post here is literally the worst place to do it, especially if it all changes (again....) next HH meeting.

And no, dude - I said the "most recent Codex: Chaos Space Marines". You sly dog, you.

But, naw, the huger Legion figures are in there, in a throwaway line somewhere in the background section.

[Iron_Lord]

I'm guessing it's here:

Page 7 CSM codex:

"Numbering hundreds of thousands of genetically enhanced warriors, with fearsome weapons and starships to carry them into battle, each Space Marine Legion was powerful enough to conquer worlds."