Hey guys, Empire looks pretty good

[smaxx]

How many people see as their list (or very close):
<snip>
Played one game against list that was about that and it seems to me that I will be seeing it again...

Ditched the Hunter for next game, expect two warrior priests in stead

[smaxx]

There's been a lot of arguments of whether the Empire release is good or bad. As always, the truth is somewhere in between. There's very good reasons to be grim about the result, mainly because a lot of options in the book are just so much worse than some others. Also the new wacky-wagons are just silly. That's a shame, but has been covered already.

What is good in my opinion, is that the book really breaths new life into playing the Empire. You know, we've been playing the game with a set of tools, and in a few ways for the 1.5 years of 8th edition, and now it's something really different. An empire where the state troops or Great Swords can actually fight is something different from the last book. It remains to be seen is there enough variety in the new Empire to keep me playing it, but for the time being I'm welcoming the new toys and new rules happily.

[Eyrenthaal]

Read the book now. I reckon that we who play as empire generals will win and loose just the same as before..

Things got better and things got worse. The overall feel of the army is Good though in my opinion.

Adding witch hunters was long overdue. I Have wanted one of those included since i first picked up mordheim when it was released.. And to think of adding à couple of them in an army..

Even the local high elf player thought that the mortar was hit à little bit to hard though. Ill still use them. The rockets looks interesting as well..

So many new shiny things..

[Spiney Norman]

This is a bit off topic, but after reviewing the book I noticed that Frenzy is one of the Special Rules that can be passed on from a parent unit to a Detachment....however, there doesn't seem to be any way to get Frenzy on a parent unit in the book. No prayer, no item, no spell in any of the 8 lores, no special character rule....nothing.

Am I missing something here?

The only way to get frenzy I can find is if from the SoM wind catcher prism powered by the lore of beasts, as for ItP, anything that confers Unbreakable or stupidity also confers ItP but of course porting Unbreakable/stupidity would actually be enough to give the detachment ItP anyway. I guess it was a catch-all for battlefield psychology regardless of the type or source.

[Spiney Norman]

Flaggellents are better than swordmasters in the first round of combat for damage output.

Shooting is all very good but it wont help that much. They can still hit very hard even when weakened by shooting, and still have unbreakable (against most units killing half of them means they will probably flee pretty quickly in combat).

Also, how many armies will have the shooting to kill them? Vs Trebuchets, Hellcannons and Grudge throwers they are just as hard to kill as greatswords. Magic eats up any units and usually ignores ASs. BS shooting is much rarer and usually limited to the elf armies or TKs (who i agree will be very effective agaisnt them).

I do feel that it is factored into their cost

Errr based on what? They will fight with the same amount of attacks at same strength, swordsmasters have higher WS and usually reroll because of ASF, in addition they fight first whereas flaggellants won't half the time. Flaggellants will potentially lose a lot of models in combat if they are against a strong enemy unit, so you'll have to take even more models to be able to take a reasonable number of casualties and still hit back at high strength.

Swordsmasters are more resistant to all attacks because of WS 6 and more resistant still to low strength attacks because of their armour, so they will still win the combat by a greater margin. They can also take a magic banner.

And I think you underestimate the amount of small arms if out there. Wood elves live or die by their ability to kill from their bows, empire and dwarfs can do small arms fire, although aside from outriders empire non-WM shooting is generally more expensive than its worth, tomb kings and dark elves own the small arms race, Bretonnian armies I've played also bring a fair few archers (actually forgot that empire archers/huntsmen are actually alright now) and skinks will annoy the heck out of them, while salamanders will rape them, as will fanatics and mangler squigs.

Magic is a far worse threat, and in response to your earlier statement there are plenty of spells out there that don't ignore armour saves and will be very castable against flags.

The drop in Ld is also significant as it leaves them vulnerable to powers like the terrorgheists/banshee scream or the casket of souls so even VC will potentially be able to decimate them from a distance.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

This is a bit off topic, but after reviewing the book I noticed that Frenzy is one of the Special Rules that can be passed on from a parent unit to a Detachment....however, there doesn't seem to be any way to get Frenzy on a parent unit in the book. No prayer, no item, no spell in any of the 8 lores, no special character rule....nothing.

Am I missing something here?

Yes. Marius Leitdorf.

The same happens with ItP. I don't know about magic items in SoM or spells in SoM, but there's no way to gain Frenzy nor ItP in normal games.

TGM.

[ihavetoomuchminis]

Yes. Marius Leitdorf.



TGM.

But a single character having that special rule doesn't make the unit Frenzied or ItP.

[Aluinn]

I see this release as being in some ways similar to the VC release. The standard power builds for Empire (Arch Lector on Altar + Steam Tank + multiple cannons/mortars + combat blocks with WP) were nerfed, and there's not really anything to replace that can be equally "competitive"--and whether or not this was overpowered is another discussion IMO. However, they gained in some other areas (most notably WP prayers being improved whilst the cost of the model went down, and Detachments potentially being useful again, e.g. making your whole army Stubborn and "Cold-Blooded" with relative ease), and got new stuff which is potentially quite good if not eyebrow-raisingly potent, such as the Demigryph Knights. At the same time, there is some new stuff of questionable use, but nothing stands out as abjectly terrible even if I can anticipate that some of it won't see tournament play.

However, there are some aspects of the new rules where I can see justifiable complaints. Swordsmen being raised a point in cost and losing a point of Initiative is a little suspect when Halberdiers were already plainly favored over them before, lost no stats, have gained the potential to have a 5+ Ward in combat, and went up the same amount. Huntsmen being moved to Special without any increase in power (beyond the possibility of taking a somewhat expensive special character to enhance them) is also something I can't exactly understand--they really deserved BS4 at least, since as they stand they're a harassment/distraction unit that a good number of armies and comps can just ignore without suffering major consequences. However, these are relatively minor gripes, and neither is game-breaking.

As for the changes to artillery, it's clear that Mortars were too cheap before, and would probably have still been too cheap at their new cost without minor nerfing, but -1 Strength is not necessarily a minor nerf--it wounds half as many T4 models, which is a pretty big deal--so I think that may have been an overreaction. The points increase to cannons on the other hand was justified, IMO, even if the real problem (their borderline-stupid utility vs. monsters vis-a-vis everything else) couldn't be resolved--but that is not really Cruddace's fault as the cannon rules are printed in black and white in the BRB and it would probably be poor form to attempt major, fundamental revisions to that given the confusion it might cause.

But my overall judgment is that the new army can be moderately competitive and is perfectly playable (i.e. able to be played with enjoyment) in pretty much any environment, at the very least, and I'll hold off on attempting to call it at such an early date, but I also think there is potential for a list with multiple units of Demigryph Cav to approach overpoweredness, at least in the sense that I can see multiple armies out there with no clear or reliable answer to these things just coming at them full speed.

[Emrico]

But a single character having that special rule doesn't make the unit Frenzied or ItP.

Dwarf Brewhouse gives ItP within 6". Altar of Khaine gives Frenzy within 6". Both are part of normal game rules. They covered the bases by including those rules.

Jim

[GodlessM]

That's pretty close to 80% of the lists people will make with the new book. All credits to Cruddace.

You say this like half the army books out there don't end up the same way, the old Empire book included. People need to stop acting like internal balance is a trait of Warhammer; it hasn't been in a long time (unfortunate, but it's mostly a general thing, not a Cruddace thing).

[Ohris]

Ditched the Hunter for next game, expect two warrior priests in stead

Well the hunter is cheap 50 points "item" that gives MR2 so that seems pretty good... Also doesnt he give some bonuses against fear/terror?
Other than that I think you did not or forgot to use him...

[Marauder Carl]

You say this like half the army books out there don't end up the same way, the old Empire book included. People need to stop acting like internal balance is a trait of Warhammer; it hasn't been in a long time (unfortunate, but it's mostly a general thing, not a Cruddace thing).

It's usually the half that have been waiting a long time for an update, but there are exceptions to that as well. Woc are offenders of churning out clone feeling lists, Lizardmen, HE, WE... to name a few others. When enough units in the book are under-performing, or too specialist in role to chance taking in a take-on-all type list*, then you get this.

Jungle Swarms? Uh no. Skink Cohort or Krox? Pass. Razordon'ts? uh-uh. Oh boy! Lets play a Salamander netlist.

Time, with the release of meta-shifting new books plays a huge role in this too. I get a feeling that some books 'diversity-list-potential-shelf-life' can be rather deformed at birth in some cases.

If WoC don't break their trend of mono-list boredom in the future book, I'll pass them for another edition.

( * the real future fate of flagellants imo )

[The bearded one]

That's pretty close to 80% of the lists people will make with the new book. All credits to Cruddace.

I was looking to go with an army themed for a knightly order (a griffon-themed order) filling the majority of core with knights, a unit or two of demigryphs, and a character or two on griffons, which are joined by a pair of warriorpriests with their looney following of flaggelants, endlessly annoying the knights with their doomsaying.

Without magic, gors always have the beast banner in them. 27 attacks kills about 3 ironguts. Even assuming failed hatred and lack of beast banner, it's about 20 attacks to kill an irongut. Gors with the beast banner are one of the hardest hitting units in the game, and tear apart ogres.

And this is quite meek compared to what damage flaggelants do in the first round.

Great can you link me to it, what toughness/AS/WS did they math-hammer on, what buffs did they assume we're effecting the unit. He said/she said posts rarely further a debate because Ive either got to run the numbers myself (which I dont really have much interest in doing) or take your word for it.

Furthermore your assertion that "most units" number 30 models or less is based on what exactly? For ranked infantry units 30 is the absolute minimum I would dream of fielding in any of my armies, most of the time I would go much larger than that.

I mathhammered a couple of examples of what flaggelants with an average sacrificebonus would do against several very intimidating opponents. It's in that other thread in general discussion about why every was complaining, IIRC around page 10+. I'd just like to know (I haven't gotten the book yet, gonna get it later this week), do flaggelants do D6 wounds on their unit, or D6 str3 hits as I read in the rumours? Anyway; under the assumption of an average sacrificeroll you kill 1.75 flaggelants, rounding up that's reroll to hit and wound. 40 flaggelants in the first round of combat with these bonusses would do the following damage to these units:

- 40 graveguard with great weapons: The flags' 40 attacks do 26.6 wounds. Unless the 13.3 remaining graveguard inflict 13 wounds back, they crumble to the very last man. -> enemy wiped in 1 round.

- 18 ironguts (nearly twice as expensive as the flaggelants): The flags' 40 attacks do 26.6 wounds, killing ~9 ironguts in 1 round. The ironguts do ~16 wounds back, including stomps. -> The flaggelants win combat by 10 (both units have 1 rank remaining), the ironguts are nearly guaranteed to flee.
30 white lions (a very bad matchup for the flaggelants). The white lions do a stomach churning 22 wounds. 2 more flaggelants sacrifice themselves (I wonder how anyone would recognise their sacrifice amongst the flying limbs the white lions are chopping around) and the remaining 16 flaggelants still inflict an impressive 19 wounds in return. Next turn they're wiped out, but they inflict more damage than other empire units would in such circumstance. Greatswords would do 12.5 wounds IF they're still at 30+ strong, but after suffering 22 wounds like the flaggelants woulds, they'd only do a paltry 6.5 wounds, or about 11.5 if they had hatred from some kind of source. Anyway, summarising: -> flags wiped out in 2 rounds, but killing 2/3 of the white lions in 1 round

Some more:
- vs 40 hammerers: 27 kills in 1 round
- vs a slavebus 5 wide: 23 kills in 1 round (removing 5 ranks in 1 round. If the slaves were 40 strong, they lose steadfast, even if they do a lot of wounds back)
- vs 40 savage big 'uns with lucky shrunken head: 18 kills in 1 round, (that 5+ ward really hampers performance. Without it, it'd be 23 kills) sufffering 23 in return, but heck, unbreakable eh?
- vs 20 chosen of tzeentch with halberds and 3++: After suffering 17 wounds and sacrificing 2 more, they inflict 21 wounds, of which 7 get through the 3++. Next round another 15 die to the chosen and sacrifices. The remaining 6 inflict 2.5 wounds, of which ~1 gets through the 3++ save. The flaggelants are wiped in the 3rd round of combat. --> All flaggelants are killed over 3 rounds of combat, after killing 8 chosen. So they nearly half a 3++ chosen unit, while simultaneously tarpitting it for 3 combat rounds.


I keep hearing everybody shout "yeah, but people are sure to shoot at them". What kind of empire player are you? Counter-artillery gentlemen! Fire back some rockets and cannonballs. If your enemy can shoot at you, you can shoot back, can't you? The math shows flaggelants taking on enemy units at least as expensive, sometimes more expensive (the ironguts for example were nearly twice as expensive), and if the flags are weakened by shooting, you can weaken your enemy's unit by shooting as well. Also many armies don't have an extensive shooting phase, such as vampire counts, beastmen or chaos warriors without hellcannons.

[Boreas_NL]

Apart from the new rules, there is precious little new background or fluff to be found in the new book. There are a few nice new pieces of artwork but most of the stuff is straight from the old book (or even from the one before that). In that respect (even though it's now in full colour), the book is just a waste of paper: it looks nice, but that's all...

[The bearded one]

Apart from the new rules, there is precious little new background or fluff to be found in the new book. There are a few nice new pieces of artwork but most of the stuff is straight from the old book (or even from the one before that). In that respect (even though it's now in full colour), the book is just a waste of paper: it looks nice, but that's all...

Again? Darnit, they did that with VC too! Lifting it nearly verbatim from the 7th edition one.

[Gazak Blacktoof]

How many people see as their list (or very close):

Arch lechtor on chariot
Level 4 wizard
warrior priest
Witch unter

Halverdier, Halberdiers, halberdiers in core (hatred & 3+ to hit on close combat at S4 is pretty damn good)

2 x Cannon
Hurricanum
Demigryph riders (3-4)

Steam tank

I'm planning on something with more cavalry and more priests. I'm also thinking that a decent sized unit of greatswords with a halberd detachment will keep their points well. Both will benefit from stubborn regardless of their unit size so you'll probably need to break or eliminate both before you can make a pursuit move. If they're benefiting from priestly ward saves or other magic that's going to be no easy task.

I'm not sure which, if any, of the centre-piece chariots I'll be fielding. As with most of these units it's difficult to assess their playability because they can often be a huge point-sink if the opponent has artillery and I regularly play against empire, dwarfs, brets and skaven all of which can pop them with ease. The list you quoted with target saturation might be the way to go, but then you lose the feel of it being an army and a shortage of bodies can itself pose problems. In large games I'll probably opt for hurricanum, steam tank and general on griffon.

[The bearded one]

i was thinking of a knightly order list, but alternatively I might go for something like this;
lvl4
BSB
2 warriorpriests
witch hunter
40'ish halbediers
30'ish swordsmen or militia, also a couple of archers because the models are cool
40 greatswords, a detachment or 2
40 flaggelants
2-3 cannons
hellstorm rockets
hurricanium

and then see what fits in the remaining points.

[Crovax20]

I'm also toying with a knightly order... Just wondering, what special rule "gimmick" does a grandmaster get?

I can see it already, knights, demigryph knights, outriders, pistoliers... would play completely different to my Goblins and Tomb kings.

[The bearded one]

I'm also toying with a knightly order... Just wondering, what special rule "gimmick" does a grandmaster get?

I can see it already, knights, demigryph knights, outriders, pistoliers... would play completely different to my Goblins and Tomb kings.

Alternatively it could be a reiksguard list, with core knights, special reiksguard and demigryphs, and greatswords as reiksguard on foot.

[GodlessM]

@Gazak, the two funwagons are hardly a points sink considering how cheap they are.