Help against Necrons

[Axeman1n]

I feel like 1500pts is a very nice spot for the Necron army. It seems like if I don't make a list that is designed to beat this one list, I get rolled by his scarabs. It's a mini factory.
Stormlord
3 squads of 10 Immortals with Tesla
6 Wraiths, 5Lash 1 Pistol.
3 Tombspiders
10 scarabs
5 scarabs
Anihilation Barge
It's bested my basic Eldar list, and my Basic Thousand Sons list. I have beaten it with Orks, but I've also lost to it with orks. I don't know why I'm having so much trouble against it though. Because of the nightfight, he's always got 16 scarabs in his main unit of scarabs, and they have always seemed to roll me. What I can kill scrabs with, he just charges with the wraiths and usually that's it.

[Infidel]

I would:

Stormlord
1x 10 Gauss Immortal + Chronotek
2x 10 Tesla Immortals + Stormtek

6x Wraiths - 3 Lash, 2 Pistol
3 Scarabs
3 Scarabs

3 Sypders, Particle Beamer, Gloom Prism
3 Spyders, Particle Beamer, Gloom Prism

I don't recall the point cost of the particle beamer off the top of my head, but this would make a far stronger list. In a scarabfarm list, the scarabs are free, so you should endevour to take as few scarabs as possible from the start and use the farm to add bases to them. The spyders being T6 with 3+ saves and wound allocation is very tough to get rid of.

30 tesla immortals is good, but might as well take 10 of them with blaster to make better use of Imhotekh's Phaeron, and for a 70% increase in damage output up close.

Drop some lashes, 3 is about the most you'd need and this way you get 3 wound allocation groups rather than just 2.

Chronotek allows you to reroll NF rolls and boost surviability when you need to but most importantly, it allows you to reroll a glance damage result off the gauss. The Stormtek is in the other units because they're cheap and can lay down more S5 attack and its haywire gun gives the gauss immortals ways to deal with enemy vehicle if it comes to that.

The lone annihilation barge is not going to achieve much. Being the only mech element it'd just die to anti-tank fire, and due to nightfight and no real way of circumventing it, it's unlikely to shoot more than once or twice. Without Zahndrekh to boost its strength against armour, I don't feel like it's a good buy.

[grey knights rock]

I think he was looking for help on how to kill the army, not make it better.

[Kelanen]

It's bested my basic Eldar list, and my Basic Thousand Sons list. I have beaten it with Orks, but I've also lost to it with orks. I don't know why I'm having so much trouble against it though.

Well in fairness Necrons are a stronger codex than any of these. Thousand Sons are about the worst army in CSM (tied with Word Bearers), and CSM is not a strong codex - it's default monobuild puts it half way up the pile, and anything else is down in the bottom third. Similarly, the best Ork and Eldar lists are about half way up teh pile, but most are a long way down. I say this as someone who's main armies are CSM and Eldar!

Necrons are not a top codex, but it is a modern codex, and a solid one. Whilst I'm not a Necrons expert, his list looks reasonable, with a lot of the normal good stuff in. With any of your three armies, you'd need to be playing ultra-competive builds (and that means nothing 1kSons or even Tzeentched marked, nothing whatsoever), Eldar would need to be Mechdar or S6 spam. The fact you list Thousand Sons makes me think you are more of a fluffy, take stuff you like player, and I'm afraid you'll predictably fail to any modern codex like that.

For more detailed advice we'd need to know what's in your lists, and more details on what went wrong most games.

On the upside, CSM will have a new codex in the summer, and Eldar likely in the next year to 18 months. Currently they (along with Tau and Black Templars) are the oldest and most in need of updating.

[Infidel]

I think he was looking for help on how to kill the army, not make it better.

Indeed! My apologies.

Small arms fire form a distance is not the answer and Eldar is a poor match-up against a Cron footlist. S5 shooting will destroy eldar infantry, Wraiths do great against anything eldar has in terms of H2H and Scarabs couldn't care less about holofields. I'm not entirely sure what Eldar can do. Scatterlaser/SC Warwalker with Doom and Guide to wipe out troops/scarabs seems like an idea. Dark Reapers with tempest Exarch seems good, seeing as how crackshot ignores cover.

I havn't lost to an Eldar with my Cron, but the closest fight i've ever had was against Bikecouncil + Fireprism + DA in Serpents and Firedragons in a Falcon.

I think the general weakness of the Necron list is CC. Aim your anti-vehicle weapon at the Spyders and torrent the Wraiths some before you engage in combat. The Immortals without support are worse than Tac Marines in CC, and if you can involve the scarabs in a multi-assault, you can make the enemy explode through combat resolution.

Keep in mind that the Necron list, although it's not the most optimised, is at least in line with some of the most competitive list the codex can put out, which means it'll be an uphill fight for fun or fluffy armies.

[blurrymadness]

Mech'd S6 spam; like always; will do just fine against this. His AT is all either CC or the Stormlord and Barge. That's ALL of it. I'd run something similar to my usual (not that I'd own Eldar :P):

220 - 2x Autarch, Fusion, Warp Gen
120 -2x5x DA
110 -1xWave Serpent, TL + Chin Cannon
184 -2x5xFDs,Ex with HFlamer
220 -2xWave Serpent, TL + Chin Cannon
254 -2x5xWarps, Ex, DDS
390 -3xFalcon, 2xCannon

There's a little bit of filler in the list. If you cut the exarchs and DDS you might get a third FD squad and move the serpent to them.


Either way, this list is very generic and should be effective against a wide variety of armies. Not only do you have 6 AV12 hulls (half with Energy Field) you have 6 S8 shots at long range, 36 S6 at midrange, and 24 at short range, 4 individual melta units with 10 in all (at decent BS), a few flamers (points filler but a good include), and TONS AND TONS of mobility.

Reserve denial the punk, then alpha strike everything you can. Scarabs will prove no problem when every single wound is capable of taking out *an entire base.* Not only that, but dragons are far from useless against them and Spiders. The Immortals are badly designed (I.E. no blasters and his army has no ranged AT) so they'll be unable to touch you until you let them. Further, the Annibarge is easily dispatched by any of the melta squads and is his only means outside of scarabs to ever hope of killing skimmers (as you should be able to kite the rest.)

You're Eldar; You're supposed to fight dirty; now go and do it; Show this Kelanen character that the Eldar still got it

[Greavious_Bodily_Harm]

Grey knights I rolled my local necrons player with my grey knights just saying and orks I've only just started with them but at 1500 points I have 60 boys 6 kanz looted wagon with boom gun and 10 Nobz with my big mek kff and 10 looters. Just sheer numbers should keep u going necrons are squishy

[Kelanen]

Mech'd S6 spam;

Show this Kelanen character that the Eldar still got it

You'll note I said Eldar would need Mechdar and/or S6 spam to deal with it - just like that, although I'm not a big fan of double-autarch denial myself, but it is a viable option.

That kind of list is the most competitive Eldar field, and what you see at big tournaments. It only gets a couple of entries in the Top 50 though, and rarely the Top 10.

I do agree it can handle that Necron list though.

[blurrymadness]

You'll note I said Eldar would need Mechdar and/or S6 spam to deal with it - just like that, although I'm not a big fan of double-autarch denial myself, but it is a viable option.

I was jking; tried to imply that with a wink. I like Autarchs for the BS6 Fusions that can make Spiders more a hassle than usual and see the reserve denial as a means to screw up certain tactics; the Stormlord being one such tactic.

Really... I would still imagine Jetcouncils would do fine. Without efficient combat options that can tank them I'd hazard to guess that a Fortuned council would munch through things like normal.

[Kelanen]

Yes Jetcouncil would be my approach, but it suits my tactical preferences as much as anything and I have a lot of experience with it. Double Autarch is certainly a viable approach, just not my preference.

[Infidel]

Yes Jetcouncil would be my approach, but it suits my tactical preferences as much as anything and I have a lot of experience with it. Double Autarch is certainly a viable approach, just not my preference.

Jetcouncil will get tarpitted by Scarabs. Once it makes contact, there's no way out for them. Wounding on 2s and not denying save on a 3 wound 15pt model that can replinish 9 wounds a turn means it's almost more likely for the scarabs to eventually eat the bikecouncil before the bike council fights their way through the swarm.

Wraiths can't do it as well, but the can definately put up a stiff fight.

[Kelanen]

Given their mobility, Jet Councils pick their fights, not the other way around. Scarabs are also vulnerable to Blasts/Templates no? 4+ Destructors will make short work of them should you choose to engage them.

[blurrymadness]

Jetcouncil will get tarpitted by Scarabs. Once it makes contact, there's no way out for them. Wounding on 2s and not denying save on a 3 wound 15pt model that can replinish 9 wounds a turn means it's almost more likely for the scarabs to eventually eat the bikecouncil before the bike council fights their way through the swarm.

Wraiths can't do it as well, but the can definately put up a stiff fight.

meh, probably not? It's not like Jetcouncil army is still without S6; who's to say the more mobile Council wouldn't be able to stay out of combat without the other elements hitting the scarabs. Note that it's usually Fire Prisms that support Jetcouncils and if you have two of them you're getting double hits on a re-rolling S6 AP4 large blast. hitting even 3 bases is likely to kill about 3 bases and is quite easy to do. Also note that Jetcouncils usually tote destructors (something that eats swarms), that the swarms are fearless and unlikely to kill models, and that being only 5+ saves they shouldn't hold them up *that* long; it's not much different than trying to hold them up with Ork boyz; except that they're also WS3 IIRC. Another problem is that if you're using scarabs on a jetcouncil where' your anti-tank?

Now; you *could* throw the Tomb Spyders also attacking the council/replenishing, but this further weakens the anti-tank. the best you can hope for at this point is that the serpents and prisms dont' deal enough damage to you while being *completely immune* to return fire (once the barge is taken care of.)

It's already noted that the Anti-tank in the list is beyond mediocre and throwing the only reliable anti-tank you have at the non-vehicle units in the army seems wasteful. The

[Infidel]

Jet council is more mobile, but given the fact that Scarabs are beasts and new bases can be spawned in any direction, a potential 3" (1" coherency+ 1" base) + 6" + D6" +12" charge range means even jetbikes will have trouble staying out of reach.

Don't get me wrong, S6 shooting is about the most effective way to deal with Scarabs in an Eldar army, but if the Necron player play their cards right, the Eldar should have no more than 2 turns of shooting before scarabs charge while under NF and with Scarabs hugging cover the whole time.

That list is far from optimal. A better scarab farm will pump out a 6~9 scarab swarms a turn and would also come with vehicle supression, and that could go bad for the Eldar, fast.

[DJ3]

Given their mobility, Jet Councils pick their fights, not the other way around. Scarabs are also vulnerable to Blasts/Templates no? 4+ Destructors will make short work of them should you choose to engage them.

Destructors would obliterate Scarabs, but the Scarabs' effective range is longer (by quite a bit)--and the burden of engaging quickly is on the Seer Council, not the Scarabs, who only get stronger by waiting.

It's far more likely that the Seer Council gets tarpitted by the Scarabs than the Scarabs getting blown off the table by Destructors. A Seer Council is a hypothetical answer to a problem that they have no practical way of actually solving. A 12" move and 8" template gives them a best-case range of 20", but to actually pose any threat they'd likely need to get those templates at least 4" deep into the Scarabs for a meaningful number of hits. So you can tap them on the shoulder from 20" out, but likely need to be closer to ~16" to pose a risk. The Scarabs, on the other hand, are starting each turn with a 3.5" gain from spawning onto an average 21.5" Assault.

One of those 24-shot Scatter Laser spam War Walker squadrons is a far better option for dealing with Scarabs, honestly. Even against 3+ Cover and no Guide, you're chipping away at them faster than three Spyders can replenish them, and you're doing it from across the table (once Night Fight ends) for 180 points instead of having to chuck an expensive Seer Council at it that will in all likelihood just end up tarpitted. If they come out of cover for any reason (say, you feed them a Transport once they get into charge range) the Scatter Lasers will just end them.

[Axeman1n]

My original plan was to charge the scarabs with the Wraithlord, but he saw through my plan and kept him from engaging anything but the wraiths or the tombspiders. I chose the wraiths, as the spiders were monsterous and would offer the wraith lord no saves, and wounding on 4+. The Wraiths would also offer no saves as each wound was a rending wound, but it was better than the spiders.
The night fighting really did me in. I wasn't able to get shots off until turn 3, and by then the scarabs squad was up to 19. I tried shooting at it with my Pulse lasers and Eldar Missile Launchers, but I was only able to kill 6 bases worth. I will try the warwalkers, but I was thinking of springing the corsairs on him, with the Jump Jet BS4 troop walkers.

[Infidel]

My original plan was to charge the scarabs with the Wraithlord, but he saw through my plan and kept him from engaging anything but the wraiths or the tombspiders. I chose the wraiths, as the spiders were monsterous and would offer the wraith lord no saves, and wounding on 4+. The Wraiths would also offer no saves as each wound was a rending wound, but it was better than the spiders.

As a matter of fact Wraiths is a poor choice if it it comes down to picking between the Spyders and Wraiths as your target.

1. Both of them wound WL on 6s, but when wraiths do so, it also rends, so it denies save anyway.
2. Fighting spyders shuts down scarab generation
3. Wraiths has larger squad size, so more attacks
4. Wraiths can reduce WL's initiative to 1, which the Spyders can't
5. Wraiths have invulnerable saves, which the Spyders don't
6. Wraiths are WS4, which means WL hits on 4s rather than 3s

So, no. Spyders are a better choice as an opponent, every time.

[Kevlar]

CSM do well against necrons. Lash and a couple of plasma cannons or just one shot with a battle/demolisher cannon will destroy every single scarab. So 3 obliterators and a defiler or vindicator and they are gone. Wraiths are easily countered by some berzerkers and a demon prince or two. Should wipe them out in a single turn, first or second turn if he sends them after your obliterators. Then just mop up the immortals with lash and plasma at your leisure. Send an empty rhino to light up anything you want dead first turn with searchlights and you won't even notice night fight.

[Infidel]

CSM do well against necrons. Lash and a couple of plasma cannons or just one shot with a battle/demolisher cannon will destroy every single scarab. So 3 obliterators and a defiler or vindicator and they are gone. Wraiths are easily countered by some berzerkers and a demon prince or two. Should wipe them out in a single turn, first or second turn if he sends them after your obliterators. Then just mop up the immortals with lash and plasma at your leisure. Send an empty rhino to light up anything you want dead first turn with searchlights and you won't even notice night fight.

I wouldn't be so optimistic.

Lash has a limited range and if they're running scarabs, chance is they'll also be running Spyders, and if they're packing Spyders, the chances are they'll have a Gloom Prism in there. If you have to resort using vindi shells or battlecannons to deal with Scarabs, then the rest of the necron army is just sitting there unmolested.

Nightfight will also severely limit the effectiveness of Oblits and any ranged shooting options, and Search light still requires you to roll for nightfights, so it's not just a free 'out-of-nightfight' card people make it seem.

As for throwing DP at the Wraiths....why? The Wraiths actually WANT to engage the DP because they'll shred it to pieces. Even off the charge, coil reduce the DP to I1, the Wraiths hits on 4s, wounds on 3s and the DP has a 3+ and 5+ for the rends, should average 2 wounds a turn, the DP hits on 3+, wounds on 3+ and then a 3++ save = .15 wounds per turn, and there are 12 wounds in 3 wound allocation groups in that 6 Wraiths. Warptime improves it a bit, but you'd still never want to fight Wraiths with DPs.

Berserker is a better match-up, but only if they're getting the charge off, and assuming their ride get there unscathed after the scarabs are dealt with and THEN weathering gauss fire to get there.

Necrons may not be a tier 1 codex, but I don't think any codex out there can claim that they can handily trouce crons, especially CSM.

[Kevlar]

I wouldn't be so optimistic.

Lash has a limited range and if they're running scarabs, chance is they'll also be running Spyders, and if they're packing Spyders, the chances are they'll have a Gloom Prism in there. If you have to resort using vindi shells or battlecannons to deal with Scarabs, then the rest of the necron army is just sitting there unmolested.

Nightfight will also severely limit the effectiveness of Oblits and any ranged shooting options, and Search light still requires you to roll for nightfights, so it's not just a free 'out-of-nightfight' card people make it seem.

As for throwing DP at the Wraiths....why? The Wraiths actually WANT to engage the DP because they'll shred it to pieces. Even off the charge, coil reduce the DP to I1, the Wraiths hits on 4s, wounds on 3s and the DP has a 3+ and 5+ for the rends, should average 2 wounds a turn, the DP hits on 3+, wounds on 3+ and then a 3++ save = .15 wounds per turn, and there are 12 wounds in 3 wound allocation groups in that 6 Wraiths. Warptime improves it a bit, but you'd still never want to fight Wraiths with DPs.

Berserker is a better match-up, but only if they're getting the charge off, and assuming their ride get there unscathed after the scarabs are dealt with and THEN weathering gauss fire to get there.

Necrons may not be a tier 1 codex, but I don't think any codex out there can claim that they can handily trouce crons, especially CSM.

CSM lash works incredibly well against necrons. Spyders are very slow and only provide a 4+ against the lash. They really don't cover much ground and even when the gloom prism is in range it is hardly reliable. Not only that but foot crons are very popular. Not many people run ghost arks for their troops, and night scythes don't even have a model.

Searchlights make nightfight a non issue really. With everything in the chaos dex outclassing necrons in close combat you want to close with them. Pushing forward with your rhinos, dreads, defilers means you will easily light up something valuable and kill it.

Wraiths fall to weight of attacks and if someone is geared up for wound allocation not every wraith has a whip coil. Charge the prince in against a coil-less wraith and tie the others up with berzerkers. The prince wounds on a 2+ btw. Also, I didn't say you charge the wraiths with a lone prince. You charge them with everything available and focus fire them down in a single turn. A full squad of berzerkers and an additional prince should easily wipe them out in one turn. Wraiths are usually played aggressively, so getting the charge on them isn't difficult with a double lash list.

Lash has an effective 36" range on a winged prince, and double lash can move an enemy unit twice in one turn for a total 4d6". Foot crons really are very vulnerable to a lash list. I play them regularly and while I don't always win I always feel like I have the upper hand. The last nercon army I played in a local tournament I tabled in turn 4.