Refused veiwing of the new book

[Yodhrin]

There's a logical fallacy to the point:

'as the book costs more people need to be able to touch before they buy'

Which is that as the book costs more any damage costs more to absorb- hence staff need to protect it more.

All I think is wrong here is the manner the situation was dealt with. If the staff member had said something like 'sorry, we've had a few books damaged lately so unfortunately im going to have to ask you to put it down, but ill happily tlk you through the book' would we be having this discussion?
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I certainly would be. Browsing is a part of retail, this is why some retailers have changed the way they display stock(shrink-wrapping, dummy cases, inserts etc etc), so if you don't want people to browse, you don't put stock on the floor that they can browse. Nobody is interested in having a staff member who's main purpose is to sell you a product talk you through that product, the reasons why should be self-evident. If I go into GW and I'm considering buy a codex or BL book, I want to pick it up and look through it, I want to check a few of the units, I want to read some of the fluff, I want to see if the author's style is something I'll appreciate; you really think a GW staffer, even if they knew my preferences in advance, is going to say "No dude, don't spend £20 on the new Grey Knight 'dex, you'll hate it, the quality of writing is terrible"? Of course not, but being able to discern such things before making the purchase is pretty much the entire reason brick and mortar stores still exist, other than old people who hate computers, take away that opportunity and all that's left is a 3D web shop that reads out the sales-blurb with an annoying level of enthusiasm.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I think there's a key point here, however, that reading a book constitutes more than "browsing". Many products you can't really use in the store while you look at them and I think in most cases using the product would be frowned upon! If you went into a shop and took a perfume off the shelf and used it every time before you went out, or ate the food in a supermarket, that's not "browsing". Of course, department stores will often give out free samples of e.g. perfume, food, etc, to persuade you to buy it but that's not a privileged. We aren't talking about just flicking through the book, we're talking about sitting down and reading it from cover to cover (or at least the interesting bits to gamers, the stats and rules).

Now, I still think it's bonkers of GW not to put their stuff online or at least offer open copies in their stores. They're not comic book stores, the books are a gateway to buying the miniatures, not an end in themselves. But that's besides the point.

[samiens]

GW stores exist for a number of reasons- I guess that the GW strategy of getting people into stores, so you can be sold to, has little to do with 'discerning choice' and more about maximising sakes (obviously).

Im pretty sure GW wants you to make impulse choices, not carefully thought out ones. That probably means that allowing people to leaf through saleable items isn't really a priority- after all, would it be unreasonable if GW didn't let you open boxes to view sprues before purchasing? Would it be reasonable for a customer to request such? I struggle to see much difference.

Browsing by effectively consuming product without purchasing is hardly a shoppers right.
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[lbecks]

I think stores should have an open copy to read. Then all others are off limits. I went to an LGS that had open books for browsing and game playing. Does GW have a set of books for game players or are they required to bring their own books? GW stores don't seem like they're making massive amounts of money so I would expect them to be on the stingier side of things. In talking about comic books when I lived in NY I used to go to midtown comics all the time and they had a very liberal reading policy. They also made a lot of money and had a good rewards program.

[Spectrar Ghost]

There's a difference between GW's rulebooks and Black Library books, and that is that they are designed for what you might call "continuous consumption". I can read Mechanicus once and remember the major points; I wouldn't expect GW to allow me to read it cover to cover in store. Much of the rulebooks is similar - fluff, histories, and the like - but the important parts can't be consumed in one sitting.

Can I make an army list from memory? Yes, but not after one flip through of the rules, at least without a photographic memory. And I have certain units and weapons that I prefer and can remember everything I need to about, but non-preferred options are things I need to refer back for. Likewise the special rules - I may remember what they do in general, but the exact wording is important in certain situations. I refer to my rulebooks on a continual - weekly to monthly depending on how often I play a game - basis, and I need the book, or at least a copy of it, to do that.

Looking through a rulebook to make a considered purchase a) is not reading it cover to cover, and b) does not mean you don't need to purchase it to use. Arguing otherwise is disingenuous.

Damage and losses are problems all retailers face, but when I worked at a pet store we didn't prevent owners from offering toys to their pets to try - it may cause some damages, but not allowing it costs more in lost revenue.

[thesheriff]

I think stores should have an open copy to read. Then all others are off limits. I went to an LGS that had open books for browsing and game playing. Does GW have a set of books for game players or are they required to bring their own books? GW stores don't seem like they're making massive amounts of money so I would expect them to be on the stingier side of things. In talking about comic books when I lived in NY I used to go to midtown comics all the time and they had a very liberal reading policy. They also made a lot of money and had a good rewards program.

See, I was agreeing until you said "GW stores are stingy".

However, the same store (who would not let me look through the book and did not have an open copy of a new release book) have an unlimited budjet for there 3 intro boards. And the GD board this year contains a ridiculous amount of stuff, including;
*8 Slann
*100 Temple guard
*40 Bloodcrushers
*4 bloodthirsters
*3 other greater daemons
*4 Ciradel gaming boards
*Commissioned water features for the board
*And ALOT of custom movment tray (all to build Lizardmen pyramids)

Yeah, for the most part, "stingy" isnt really in there vocabulary. Perhaps for the customers it is, but not for many projects the store undertakes...

thesheriff

[ColShaw]

If it's got a sticker on it that says "open copy", then it's fair game to at least leaf through (though I understand if a store doesn't allow them to be taken into the playing area; that's pretty common, and people shouldn't be using the store copies for constant in-game reference).

If there aren't open copies, then I think the customer should at least ask if it's okay to flip through them. After all, bookstores allow this, so it's hardly an unreasonable customer assumption.

This whole thing is pretty weird; I mean, doesn't GW WANT people to get excited about an army they don't have? Aren't the color-picture sections of the books set up visually to attract new players? I think it'd be in GW's best interests to allow a lot MORE perusal of their armies and info.

But hey, what do I know?

[lbecks]

See, I was agreeing until you said "GW stores are stingy".

However, the same store (who would not let me look through the book and did not have an open copy of a new release book) have an unlimited budjet for there 3 intro boards. And the GD board this year contains a ridiculous amount of stuff, including;
*8 Slann
*100 Temple guard
*40 Bloodcrushers
*4 bloodthirsters
*3 other greater daemons
*4 Ciradel gaming boards
*Commissioned water features for the board
*And ALOT of custom movment tray (all to build Lizardmen pyramids)

Yeah, for the most part, "stingy" isnt really in there vocabulary. Perhaps for the customers it is, but not for many projects the store undertakes...

thesheriff

So do they also offer open books for game playing? It sounds like the employees might be taking advantage of GW policies.

[BobtheInquisitor]

There's a difference between GW's rulebooks and Black Library books, and that is that they are designed for what you might call "continuous consumption". I can read Mechanicus once and remember the major points; I wouldn't expect GW to allow me to read it cover to cover in store. Much of the rulebooks is similar - fluff, histories, and the like - but the important parts can't be consumed in one sitting.

Can I make an army list from memory? Yes, but not after one flip through of the rules, at least without a photographic memory. And I have certain units and weapons that I prefer and can remember everything I need to about, but non-preferred options are things I need to refer back for. Likewise the special rules - I may remember what they do in general, but the exact wording is important in certain situations. I refer to my rulebooks on a continual - weekly to monthly depending on how often I play a game - basis, and I need the book, or at least a copy of it, to do that.

Looking through a rulebook to make a considered purchase a) is not reading it cover to cover, and b) does not mean you don't need to purchase it to use. Arguing otherwise is disingenuous.

Damage and losses are problems all retailers face, but when I worked at a pet store we didn't prevent owners from offering toys to their pets to try - it may cause some damages, but not allowing it costs more in lost revenue.

I have seen customers queue up with pads of paper and pens to take turns copying the important information out of new army books. This was at a GW store and the staff only put a time limit on how long the customers could copy the stats out of the book. It didn't seem like any of them intended to make a purchase.

In the age of camera phones, it seems to me that stats and rule pages would be more vulnerable to "browselifting" than, say, prose fiction.

[caddery]

No it is not a right to be able to look though a book you have not purchased. It is a privilege.

In the store I go to the manager has had to get tough with customer copies because people won't buy their books or they steal his. If a store copy has been stolen he no longer replaces it. More people take advantage of store copies for the wrong reasons than the right reasons.

If the store copy's have to be replaced once a year your looking at 30 plus books and most likely a cost of 1000+ dollars per a store. You think that is a required part of their business? Times that by 380+ stores and your looking at a company cost of most likely around 500k a year to have those books open for customers.

So there is a larger cost to that required privilege Than I think you realize. Maybe instead of looking through the book you could have asked the staff member what has changed. Let them do their job.

I bought the book without looking at it because the new models look amazing along with what was in this months White Dwarf.

[jack da greenskin]

Im pretty sure GW wants you to make impulse choices, not carefully thought out ones. That probably means that allowing people to leaf through saleable items isn't really a priority- after all, would it be unreasonable if GW didn't let you open boxes to view sprues before purchasing? Would it be reasonable for a customer to request such? I struggle to see much difference.

Browsing by effectively consuming product without purchasing is hardly a shoppers right.
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What? Are you suggesting we all buy blind? I honestly think knowing exactly what you're buying is a very important part of shopping... Otherwise, we wouldnt buy anything specific, we'd just have a large lucky dip to get all our items from. When I'm at greggs, the woman asks which sausage roll I want. I point to the one I think is most appealling. Is it somehow wrong to know in advance, what I'll be getting.

Frankly, looking through a book is the only benefit a physical bookstore gives you over ordering online. They sure as hell won't tell their customers they are not allowed to do that. And I've never been to a bookstore where I had to ask first, either.
Not sure why GW is supposed to be different in this scenario.

Agreed. Just completely agree, nothing more to say. If I'm not allowed to check anything before I get it, stats, rules, artwork... I'll order said book online.
When I go to waterstones, I pick up a book I'm thinking of getting, read the blurb, the foreword, maybe the bit at the back by the author. When I buy online... Amazon have a feature where you can read the first chapter. If Wayland had this...


And as to the OP, I'd just chalk it up as the staff not being great because of the 24 hours, you being unlikely to get the book (Which shouldnt influence it, at all) and trying to be a bit more hollywood than working in a retail job is. You'll have to tell me which staff member it was. Also, as for breaking and buying, UK law states if you break something, you pay the trade price for it. Completely unsure how this effects GW, as they produce their items. Don't know if you get to keep the item though, so likely, its you pay the £2 it costs them to print, and thats that. The new fantasy books are hardback, so pretty hard to damage unless you're smacking your mate on the head with it, or folding over pages.


And the stores should definitely have a copy of the new release. Why not? its hardly costing GW anything. If it was an indie, I'd sympathize a lot more.

[Spectrar Ghost]

I have seen customers queue up with pads of paper and pens to take turns copying the important information out of new army books. This was at a GW store and the staff only put a time limit on how long the customers could copy the stats out of the book. It didn't seem like any of them intended to make a purchase.

In the age of camera phones, it seems to me that stats and rule pages would be more vulnerable to "browselifting" than, say, prose fiction.

Both of these are problems, but it's up to the staff to moniter the browsing of products and intervene when the priveleges are being abused. Yes, it's a privilege to browse a book. However from a sales standpoint having a store copy or occasionally having to damage out a book (or more realistically remove a damaged book from inventory for use as a store copy - there's no point in throwing it out unless it's badly mangled) is less expensive than the lost sales.

Are there situations where it is appropriate to ask a customer to stop browsing a book? Hell yes. Should it be a blanket ban? No way, the advantages of allowing it far outweigh the disadvantages. Deal with abuse of the policy on a case-by-case basis using that mythical quality called "common sense".

Anyway, I think it is clear from the responss that it's not a company policy; it was the discretion of the GM or employee to ask the customer to put the book down. They do have the right to do that, though personally I think it was a foolish decision. I won't pontificate any more.

[Caiphas Cain]

On a somewhat related note, what would happen if you showed up at a GW with a digital copy of a rulebook? AFAIK, they don't have those for sale on their site, so it would likely be downloaded illegally. Would they be able to kick you from the store?

[eron12]

I thinking being refused a viewing of a book has no place in retail, and no real retail establishment would do such a thing. This might be a US vs. UK think, but I find the very notion astonishing. Customers should have every expectiation of examining products before purchase. After all, this is why fitting rooms exist. Barnes & Noble even have seating for patrons to use while looking at books. Any store that didn't let me look at an open product on the shelf clearly doesn't want my money, and they won't be getting it.

[Damien 1427]

This might be a US vs. UK think, but I find the very notion astonishing.

It isn't. Every single GW store I have ever been in has had shop copies of the army books.

[samiens]

Jack Da greenskin: Yes, you point to the sausage roll that is most appealing- you don't get to taste it first- or eat half of it then choose not to buy- so your example pretty much supports my point!
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[EmperorNorton]

Jack Da greenskin: Yes, you point to the sausage roll that is most appealing- you don't get to taste it first- or eat half of it then choose not to buy- so your example pretty much supports my point!
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Come on now, you hardly consume the contents of a book in the same way as you do a sausage roll. Reading it won't take anything away from the book and flipping through it does not replace reading it properly or having it at your disposal whenever you may want it.

Not judging a book by its cover is a piece of advice considered so profound we use it as a metaphor for all kinds of situations.
Why should GW's customers be expected to only have the cover to judge their books by?

[Autumn Leaves]

It isn't. Every single GW store I have ever been in has had shop copies of the army books.

There are 110+ stores in the UK alone, I've only been in maybe 10 of them over the years and 3 of those had a 'no touch unless buying' policy in place. I must stress that this policy was not from HQ, it was from individual managers. It fluctuated as managers came and went or were shifted to other stores etc.
Bookshops allow customers to look through the books.
It helps them to sell the books.
GW should always allow customers to look through army books because it will help to sell them.
What about army books and codexes that are older but still in use and don't have the attraction of a latest release like the Empire book currently favours?
Should they be out of bounds as well?

[samiens]

Except potential damage to the books- which has a more profound effect than if you let someone eat a single sausage roll.

But anyway, my point us that its not a right to be able to leaf through an army book before you buy (or otherwise). I totally see its a good thing to be able to do as a consumer but there are good reasons for a specific store to not allow this- and frankly much like sitting in a magazine aisle reading them its a bit rude for a customer to pick up something they have no intention of buying, when they can potentially damage stock, in the absence of asking or a store copy.
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[Artinam]

Its their right to make such rules (and I can see why). The tone how he or she said it could have been better (explaining the policy ect. ect.).