Refused veiwing of the new book

[shelfunit.]

Lord Inquisitor- interesting idea but one with a fatal flaw. Take the vet with thousands of points of an army who has so many bits they can convert most new stuff. Its quite possible that I (oops I mean hypothetical they!) won't buy anything but the book- which im basically guaranteed to buy because of my large collection. Even should I not like the new stuff, ill get the book just so I can keep playing pick up games etc.

Put the rules on the net and they don't get my book money...

But GW are not after vet's monies. As has been said many times over - vets are a small (and diminishing) part of GW's customer base. They follow the churn & burn stratagy of selling their models - the free PDFs would at least guarentee some form retention from the vets, but te vast majority of their income is from the kiddies.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Lord Inquisitor- interesting idea but one with a fatal flaw. Take the vet with thousands of points of an army who has so many bits they can convert most new stuff. Its quite possible that I (oops I mean hypothetical they!) won't buy anything but the book- which im basically guaranteed to buy because of my large collection. Even should I not like the new stuff, ill get the book just so I can keep playing pick up games etc.

Put the rules on the net and they don't get my book money...

Well I would count myself in that sort of category.

- The new books come with new sets of models. Sometimes you can convert up the new stuff but most of the new releases are big new kits the like that have never been seen before. I'll be shocked if any of the empire players I know don't pick up 2-3 of the new kits. I play ogres, VC and Empire. I've picked up four new kits for ogres, two for VC and more when I get around to black knights and vargheists. For empire I'd buy probably one or two wizard mobiles and two boxes of demigryphs. In fact, I would have bought more kits sooner if I'd not been spending so much on books!

- I would be surprised in the extreme if most die hard 5k owning players didn't pick up a paper copy as well. I certainly would, eventually although I'd buy new shiny models. Even if I never got around to buying an army book because I'm spending all my money on GW models instead, well, GW still win. The limited edition rulebooks sold out in seconds. Why? Because people love a nice book and will pay extra for it.

- Most people with 5k of one army would buy the books just for fluff.

- Even if it does represent lost sales from existing players, even a dozen would be worth it if one person buys a new army because they are enticed into playing or starting a new army.

[samiens]

I just think you can have both sales- but i have no reliable data to back that up- presumably GW does!

One of the fundamental misunderstandings I see on here is 'GW doesn't want veteran's money' presumably based on the fact that much of their strategy is based in enticing new players. Lets get real- no company turns away money. What GW doesn't do is pander to vets to make money-and frankly I reckon there's a lot more money in teens who join then fall out of the hobby than say, me, who could never buy a model again and still not get everything I own built and painted. Plus, as an adult, ill stop buying if other priorities come up- teens won't have such competing pressures.

Finally, (and I mean this as a genuine question, notasarcastic comment) is there evidence sales to vets are decreasing more than they would do naturally over time (when one owns all the models they'll ever need chances are they'll buy at a reduced rate no matter the quality or price)? Ive not seen this data, but im sure GW do demographic research.

[Lord Inquisitor]

But GW are not after vet's monies. As has been said many times over - vets are a small (and diminishing) part of GW's customer base. They follow the churn & burn stratagy of selling their models - the free PDFs would at least guarentee some form retention from the vets, but te vast majority of their income is from the kiddies.

Firstly, GW would be a complete ***** to actually not care about a significant chunk of their customer base. However, even if we accept the churn and burn strategy as worthwhile, free rules still makes sense. If you aren't interested in retaining customers (which is daft in a luxury hobby), you still want them to have free rules. Do you want little Timmy's first purchase to be low profit books or high profit models? Surely the book should be the last thing he buys, when he's got all the models his little heart desires, because that's what makes the most money for GW.

FWIW I don't believe GW is stupid enough to disregard the existing players. Indeed, the current 8th Ed books have an eye to the vets. Lavish books, much improved balance and no sign of codex creep, less shiny toys (magic items), new models aimed at existing collectors not new players. 40k might be a different story, but WFB seems aimed at the existing players as much if not more than the newbies.

[Asp]

If GW were really confident that people prefer their hardcover books, they could make a cheap softcover B&W version available also, for half the price, and see which one people bought more of.

...hmm, I think I know how that would come out...

exactly! forcing everyone to buy their hardbacks is fundamentally a coy move. and the rules aren't even that good.
so anyway, make the rules free on the net, and let all the people (the majority according to some posters on here) pay their hearts out for the many pages of badly written background.

[shelfunit.]

I just think you can have both sales- but i have no reliable data to back that up- presumably GW does!

One of the fundamental misunderstandings I see on here is 'GW doesn't want veteran's money' presumably based on the fact that much of their strategy is based in enticing new players. Lets get real- no company turns away money. What GW doesn't do is pander to vets to make money-and frankly I reckon there's a lot more money in teens who join then fall out of the hobby than say, me, who could never buy a model again and still not get everything I own built and painted. Plus, as an adult, ill stop buying if other priorities come up- teens won't have such competing pressures.

Finally, (and I mean this as a genuine question, notasarcastic comment) is there evidence sales to vets are decreasing more than they would do naturally over time (when one owns all the models they'll ever need chances are they'll buy at a reduced rate no matter the quality or price)? Ive not seen this data, but im sure GW do demographic research.

Not most of their stratagy - their entire stratagy. You have their methods nailed though - it is easier to sell to impressionable children who have no idea of the competition. GW do not do "market research" outside of their own shops, this by itself is telling. Of the various gaming groups I have been part of on my travels, GW games have been decreasing in popularity for the last decade or two, to the point where I rarely see any played now. My LGS (which I have frequented for several years now) has almost none of the people playing GW games in their tournies as when I began there - all of the people at the begining were already "vets" and deeply imbedded into "real life" as well so there have been no brand new life events (kids, marriage etc) that they didn't have before. You seem to be equating vets to fanboys in your question - only fanboys will buy anything whatever the price - vets will still buy, and buy truck loads of metal/plastic/resin, but only things that are value for money, all to soon GW cease to provide that.

FWIW I don't believe GW is stupid enough to disregard the existing players. Indeed, the current 8th Ed books have an eye to the vets. Lavish books, much improved balance and no sign of codex creep, less shiny toys (magic items), new models aimed at existing collectors not new players. 40k might be a different story, but WFB seems aimed at the existing players as much if not more than the newbies.

There maybe no codex creep, but this only applies to the new books - the Dark Elves, Skaven and Daemons of the game are still fully active and have a loonng life ahead before they get redone - until that happens all new books, however balenced against each other they may be will pale against those armies. Why would a vet want a £25 hardback book? Vets have all the backkground and fluff from the previous x editions, they also know the book will only be useful for 4-5 years (on average) and that hardbacks are heavier to carry around. Given the opportunity most vets would prefer a smaller IoB set size soft back book that costs £10 or (preferably) less to bring to the table for a game.

[xxRavenxx]

exactly! forcing everyone to buy their hardbacks is fundamentally a coy move. and the rules aren't even that good.
so anyway, make the rules free on the net, and let all the people (the majority according to some posters on here) pay their hearts out for the many pages of badly written background.

As has been said: Noone is FORCED to buy the books. In the same way a fishing enthusiast is not FORCED to buy a new lure. They just want one.

As for your reply, you clearly just don't like GWs games. If you think its badly written fluff, with poor rules, then of cause you won't want to pay anything for it. But in that case, the book may as well be £70, because its irrelevant to you.

[Spider-pope]

. Given the opportunity most vets would prefer a smaller IoB set size soft back book that costs £10 or (preferably) less to bring to the table for a game.

Except when that was attempted, with the early 3rd edition Codexes, GW received nothing but complaints from their veteran players you now claim to mostly prefer a slim, rules only tome to take with them to games.

I would argue that what a lot of players would actually like is both. In my experience the players who bring the slimmed down rulebooks to games own both versions of the book.A nice shiny Hardback to leave on their shelf looking pretty and to leaf through at home at their leisure when looking for inspiration. And a slim, IoB book to take with them to games that will inevitably get creased and tattered but costs little to replace.

[Asp]

free rules. on the net.
fluff and pics. for those willing to pay.

[Sai-Lauren]

Except when that was attempted, with the early 3rd edition Codexes, GW received nothing but complaints from their veteran players you now claim to mostly prefer a slim, rules only tome to take with them to games.

I would argue that what a lot of players would actually like is both. In my experience the players who bring the slimmed down rulebooks to games own both versions of the book.A nice shiny Hardback to leave on their shelf looking pretty and to leaf through at home at their leisure when looking for inspiration. And a slim, IoB book to take with them to games that will inevitably get creased and tattered but costs little to replace.

And then we'd have the inevitable threads about GW expecting people to pay for two versions of the same book...

Personally, I create my army lists in Word, and abridge the relevant rules sections (plus weapons stats etc) into an appendix. Print the lot out and take the rulebook and army book as a just in case.

Maybe an army builder-type program that did something similar would be the way to go, with a one-use download code that you get given when you buy the relevant army book.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Not most of their stratagy - their entire stratagy. You have their methods nailed though - it is easier to sell to impressionable children who have no idea of the competition. GW do not do "market research" outside of their own shops, this by itself is telling. Of the various gaming groups I have been part of on my travels, GW games have been decreasing in popularity for the last decade or two, to the point where I rarely see any played now. My LGS (which I have frequented for several years now) has almost none of the people playing GW games in their tournies as when I began there - all of the people at the begining were already "vets" and deeply imbedded into "real life" as well so there have been no brand new life events (kids, marriage etc) that they didn't have before. You seem to be equating vets to fanboys in your question - only fanboys will buy anything whatever the price - vets will still buy, and buy truck loads of metal/plastic/resin, but only things that are value for money, all to soon GW cease to provide that.

It should be noted that there is a big difference between the UK and the rest of the world in how much domination GW has over the market. Most LGS in the UK are GW stores. The opposite is true elsewhere.

There maybe no codex creep, but this only applies to the new books

Indeed. 8th edition appeared to be a shift in marketing focus and design philosophy aimed firmly at the long-term gamers.

Why would a vet want a £25 hardback book? Vets have all the backkground and fluff from the previous x editions, they also know the book will only be useful for 4-5 years (on average) and that hardbacks are heavier to carry around. Given the opportunity most vets would prefer a smaller IoB set size soft back book that costs £10 or (preferably) less to bring to the table for a game.

I would argue that what a lot of players would actually like is both. In my experience the players who bring the slimmed down rulebooks to games own both versions of the book.A nice shiny Hardback to leave on their shelf looking pretty and to leaf through at home at their leisure when looking for inspiration. And a slim, IoB book to take with them to games that will inevitably get creased and tattered but costs little to replace.

As noted above, most vets would want both. I have the limited edition rulebook, and I use it. I also had a IoB rulebook which I brought to games (at least, until I lost it). I also want a PDF version on my phone and computer, for perusing at work or when I forget my book to a game. I also have army builder.

Personally, I create my army lists in Word, and abridge the relevant rules sections (plus weapons stats etc) into an appendix. Print the lot out and take the rulebook and army book as a just in case.

Maybe an army builder-type program that did something similar would be the way to go, with a one-use download code that you get given when you buy the relevant army book.

You know that Army Builder does do exactly what you describe?

[samiens]

Absolutely, in the UK GW is king

[BUB]

I remember the good old days when I would pop in GW in Portsmouth as a kid borrow an army book from the shop and run off to photocopy all the rules pages! Ahhh good times.

[loveless]

As has been said: Noone is FORCED to buy the books. In the same way a fishing enthusiast is not FORCED to buy a new lure. They just want one.

Not a great comparison.

If a person is part of a gaming group that only utilizes the latest rules, or if a person is a tournament-style player, he is "forced" to buy the new book in order to maintain the aspects of the hobby/pasttime that he enjoys. Also, it's a bit of a poor assumption to think your fellow players are just going to let you use your old book because you "don't want to" buy the new one.

I've never heard of a fishing competition or fishing buddies that require specific rules. I suppose there could be a "live bait only" or "[brand name] lures only" tournament, which would force particular choices on an angler. That said, the "rules" for fishing effectively stay the same from year to year, only altering perhaps what you're allowed to catch (which may, in fact, force you to alter the contents of your tackle box).

GW rules change multiple times within a year. Occasionally this hits everyone (Core Rule Change) while at other times this hits only some players (Codex/Army Book Change). You have to keep up-to-date if you want to keep playing, typically. Maybe your gaming group has frozen itself in a particular edition, but that's an exception as opposed to the norm.

I've dealt with old players who complained about an edition change or a codex change. An old man whining that "That's how it used to work in 3rd edition!" and getting upset when you don't let him use 3rd edition Core rules in a 5th edition game is hardly the sort of player I want to go up against (...again).

Frankly, I like the background and rules in GW games, but I still don't have any of the 8th edition army books because I can't justify the asking price. I'd love to try getting back into Empire (haven't played since early 7th) or Vampire Counts (haven't really played them since 6th), but I can't pull the trigger on a flimsy little GW hardcover for a ridiculous price. The result is that I just don't play Fantasy (or, if I do, I use Skaven, which should continue to be untouched for some time).

This goes back around to the concept introduced in the topic of this thread - Yes, I'm going into a store biased against the new books because I don't feel they're worth the asking price. But unless you let me look through the book, I'm not going to change my mind. Heck, I've made dumber decisions than buying the book after flipping through an army book (like buying a Warriors of Chaos Battalion and a box of Marauder Horsemen before realizing halfway through assembly that I really didn't want to play Warriors of Chaos...anyone can feel free to make me an offer on that mistake ), so chances are I'll probably buy it if something sparks my fancy and then just end up regretting it later. However, that will never happen if you don't let me look at it.

Note that I'd probably buy more models, too, if I had a set of their sprues I could handle and look over. That's on GW though, not a store owner...man I miss Black Boxes.

[xxRavenxx]

Not a great comparison.

I disagree. Both are *needed* to participate in your hobby. Neither are *needed* in terms of: You will starve/freeze/die without.

Wargaming is not an expensive hobby. Its "mid range" on prices at best. Compare it to fishing, photography or Model Railways. Its way way cheaper than those. Having to buy the rulebook is part of the setup, in the same way that buying a lure for your fishing rod is important for the hobby, but not something you are FORCED to do. Note the word. FORCED. Noone makes people buy their hobby stuff. You buy it because you want it.

I don't buy into the "GW are evil because books should be free" argument any more than I would buy into the argument of "GW are evil because models should be free". Or "Ferrari is evil because expensive cars should be free" for that matter...

[General Veers]

In all my years of wargaming and hanging out at the FLGS, I've never heard anyone complain they're forced to buy a book or model. I have talked to a lot of people who buy the books, most of which they do not own armies for simply because THEY WANT TO. Some complain about the price but most really want to own the books. Considering the number of customers that sign up on the pre-order lists for game books I think offering them free might upset some game store owners quite a bit!

OT: My FLGS has no issue with people looking through GW, WM/H and FoW books. Now, read a comic book for more than 5 minutes the owner will come over to interrupt that experience which is deliberate on his part for obvious reasons.

[loveless]

I disagree. Both are *needed* to participate in your hobby. Neither are *needed* in terms of: You will starve/freeze/die without.

Oh good Lord...let's ignore the obvious, then (that luxury items like hobbies and other things that aren't food, water, or shelter), and look at what you need to participate in a particular hobby.

Got it? Okay, now feel free to read the post again.

Can I still fish with my friends and in fishing tournaments if I don't go buy the newest lure out there? Yes.
Can I still play Warhammer with my friends and in gaming tournaments if I don't go buy the newest army book? Probably not (depends on your particular group - tournaments are a definite "no" though).

Let's look at FORCED in terms of "maintaining your hobby as you currently practice it" as opposed to "what I need to survive"

"You don't need to buy it, because you don't need it to stay alive" is a pathetic argument that could be made about most things discussed on the internet. The argument should just be accompanied by trollface.jpg so I don't waste my time reading it.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I don't buy into the "GW are evil because books should be free" argument any more than I would buy into the argument of "GW are evil because models should be free". Or "Ferrari is evil because expensive cars should be free" for that matter...

That is not the point though. The argument is GW are foolish not to give their rules away for free. They can and do charge an arm and a leg for their models and make a good profit margin from it. If giving rules away for free means that more people are happier playing the game, more likely to buy another army or more likely to take up the game in the first place, not giving the rules out as open access is actually counterproductive for them. Particularly since a large proportion of their playerbase will buy the books anyway. And this isn't pie-in-the-sky dreaming, back when I was in England, we had a bit of an Epic Armageddon crazy among the vets at our store. We all bought the Epic rulebook even though the rules were online for free. Indeed, it was really cool to have the rules online, to make army lists and learn the rules before buying the book and even afterwards having the rules online enhanced the playing experience in so many ways. Put simply, GW could make more money and make their gamers happier.

Now, GW may have information I do not. Clearly they HAVE considered this since they've actually implemented it for SG and apparently for the main systems in Japan. Perhaps I'm simply wrong? That said, GW have made bad decisions in the past and they have a history of ignoring the desires of an increasingly plugged-in playerbase, or attempting to do something in a half-assed way and failing (e.g. their forums, their attempted army builder program), then deeming it a non-worthwhile endeavor instead of doing it properly. I worked for GW long enough to know that some of their business practices are just dumb. For example, they may have tried putting SG online for free and decided that it was followed by reduced sales, so it's not worthwhile. However, they also neutered SG at the same time, removed all advertising or store presence and basically did everything they could do to stop people knowing about them.

In any case, unless my original assumption is wrong and that the books make as much of a profit margin as models for GW, it doesn't make sense to flog players (newbies or otherwise) the books when they could make more money if those players spent their pennies on models.

[shelfunit.]

I disagree. Both are *needed* to participate in your hobby. Neither are *needed* in terms of: You will starve/freeze/die without.

Whilst true to a certain extent unless you want to play by yourself or try to get your gaming group to let you use the old book you do need to buy the new army book/rule set. When a new fishing rod comes out it doesn't make the one you currently have obsolete.

Wargaming is not an expensive hobby. Its "mid range" on prices at best. Compare it to fishing, photography or Model Railways. Its way way cheaper than those

Wargamingis mid range, GW wargaming is far, far more expensive than that.

Having to buy the rulebook is part of the setup, in the same way that buying a lure for your fishing rod is important for the hobby, but not something you are FORCED to do. Note the word. FORCED. Noone makes people buy their hobby stuff. You buy it because you want it.

As far as I was aware "set up" is generally used to describe a one time "set up" cost, not one that requires a spend of an additional minimum of £70 every 4-5 years. Again you seem to imply that everyone's gaming group will feel the sudden urge to stop buyin new things. Were this the case both GW and yourself would be out of business fast.

[scoopdeta]

Sometime sI read these and wonder what kind of lives some of you lead. We need to get to the root of the problem here...Game Worskhop is a F*&^%$# BUSINESS. They are no longer in the game for the spirit of it...at leats top management. They have investors that pay money and expect returns. It would be straight retarded if they stopped charging for books...in no way does this make any sense to a person with a half a brain for business. Money is mony...doesnt matter what product they buy. And part of the business strategy is to get you to buy new books so they can continue to make money...they aren't going to update something for free when they can make some green from it. Its pretty basic. This should be the bottom line for a lot of you...if you feel like the price is too high and GW is this evil empire...move on...find another hobby. Its not wrong or immoral what they are doing...it sbasic survival in a capitalist enviroment...except that.