New Empire 2000 pts Magic/Char Hvy Build

[keldon33]

Fantasy Army: BoC

Lord:
Wiz Lord Lvl 4 (Light)
Forbidden Rod
Opal Amulet

Wiz Lord Lvl 4 (Life)
Power Stone

Heroes:
Warrior Priest w/shield,Hvy A
(+) Vanhorstmann's
(+) Dragonhelm

Captain w/ GW
(+)Armour Of MI

Warrior Priest w/shield, Hvy A
(+) Cloak of Ulric

Warrior Priest w/GW, Hvy A
(+)Potion of Foolhardiness

Witch Hunter w/Brace
(+)Charmed Shield
(+)Dragonbane Gem

Core:
45 Halberdiers
(+) Standard, Musician
(+) 20 Halb Detachment
(+) 20 Halb Detachment

Rare Units:
Steam Tank

Celestial Hurricanum

Luminark of Hysh

Grand Total: 1996

Strategy -

Halb Unit has:

Hatred, +Battle Prayers +MR (2) + Immune to Terror + Hold the Line + +1 to hit in CC + 6++ save

This unit will be deployed in horde formation with all the heroes going in the front. 10x5 effectively.
I've tried to make it so that it will be a difficult task/decision to decide which hero needs to die from the opponents point of view.

I've pushed heavy on the magic - 5x channeling attempts, +1 PD, +1 DD, Forbidden Rod for the turn I want the most magic possible, Power Stone for that absolute need to get off this last spell - with cloak of ulric + pha's protection the middle three characters effectively are being hit at -2 modifier meaning enemy needs 5's if not in most cases 6's just to hit them. Add in Light Speed and it gets even better.
The life wiz is there to add in some nice remains in play spells at the start of the game - shield of thorns on a unit + throne of vines. Heals chars and helps fill that void left from the WP 7th edition rules.


S-tank will roll up and pick off warmachines/monsters + support the most threatened flank. Hysh's laser can also help pick off warmachines/monsters.

That's basically it - I hate leaving 4 pts left around, there's probably some way to tweak this setup to be more optimal.


If possible:
I know a lot of people will probably take issue with this list - but just looking for what people think I need to be concerned with the most - keep any of the "this list wont work ever" stuff out of it. Constructive ideas to better the list - not completely change it please.

[Jind_Singh]

It's ok in principle but just so few units at 2000 points - 1 core unit with 2 support detachments, Stank, 2 chariot supports - Stank is only anti-monster weapon you have and it can only shoot in a straight line - so can't count it to get line of sight always.

You have a TON of characters - but FIVE of them share the common pool of power dice - this could cripple you in a low winds of magic roll.

I would really drop 2 of the Priests - were are they going to deploy to be effective?

Points saved at least allows you to field an extra unit of something - be it outriders, small unit of knights, war machine, etc.

I would also heartily recommend a BSB upgrade to the captain.

With so few units I can see you running out of options during a game - and besides the Steam Tank there is no real juicy unit the enemy would be worried about - hence they will go all out to take down the tank before knocking out the core units.

I know you have the 2 Wizardmobiles but with just a 6++ on one they don't last that long.

I would proxy a game or 2 before buying the models for this

[BlackPawl]

Just one real combat unit is a little bit weak - you will be outdeployed every time. Where will you deploy your wizards? They can not go into the helbard unit because they must be at the front of it, so they have to stay alone and be good targets for scouts, warmachines and magic.

The steam tank can hold one unit for a few turns, but if your opponent has two or more combat units OR one good shooting phase asgainst your main unit OR one good masgic phase with dwellers or so you will struggle alot.

Whit my Skaven or High elves I would see no problem with this list. My Skaven would not strike at the characters but would kill the helbardiers - and after that and two units in the flank the last helbardiers would run. With High elves and one good magic phase you would also have no real combat unit on the board.

You need some artillery (minimum one cannon) and another unit which can hold one flank for several turns. And pray that you don't get double ones int the magic phase ...

[keldon33]

Thanks for the constructive reply Jind and BlackPawl - I am glad you are trying to work with the list dynamic rather than just trash it =]

A lot of your concerns are what I was thinking too...
1. Yeah, it is a bit on the small size in terms of models. It could end up being a problem - I may have to figure a way to squeeze in an extra unit somehow...
2. The S-tank is the only anti-monster shooting weapon. I've got decent magic (Hysh, shem's burning gaze buffed, awakening of the wood buffed from throne of vines) that can score wounds on monsters. Then in combat theres the vanhorstmann WP, and even two characters that can hit for s6 if it comes down to it. So I am thinking it's not too bad there.. And using Regrowth on the Stank should help keep it up...
3. Yeah a low winds of magic roll would hurt. But hey, I've got a better than 50% chance I will get atleast +1 dice from channeling, +1 dice from the wizmobiles, and if I still need more in a crucial turn I've got +d6 dice from the rod and +2 PD from the stone... So I really dont think I will hurt for dice... my bigger concern is if I play against an army that has heavy magic defence, then my core troops could realy suffer and die quite quickly...
4. I was thinking about the BSB - I could try to squeeze him in - but that would really soften up the rest of the characters. My thinking here is the main unit already has so much going for it. Add in the magic buffs and its going to be hard to break in combat... so I dont think it will be a traditionally LD test vulnerable unit. And the hold the line is pretty nice if it comes to it anyways...

The Halb unit is pretty fearsome in terms of combat with all 5 characters... the regimental unit is doing (7A at WS4, S4) (3A at WS 5, S6) (2A [+1 on chrg] at WS 4, S6) then if we assume an enemy of 5 wide (16A at WS 3, S4) for the halbs.. so looking at 28-29 A's in total.
now with buffs, each attack is getting +1 to hit, (three priests give potential for all three prayers) therefore re-roll all hits (halbs) and wounds, 5++ save, every attack is flaming + additional 3 str 4 hits.
This all without even any buff magic getting off... if I managed light speed on this unit (lvl 4 wiz can cast it with just 2 PD no prob) your looking at a unit hitting on 2+ (with re-rolls) and most likely hitting first...

and I still havent even thrown the detachments into the fray yet...

I just think this unit is gonna be a monster... the enemy is either going to have to decide to try and deal with my numerous support targets or try to bash this unit before it can close the gap.. either way I think it'll be a tough fight.

The skaven and High elf scenarios are a bit vague for me to really appreciate... can you post your specific lists? I'd like to anaylze the match up over here =]

And getting double 1's is like having your cannon roll a misfire and pop anyways.. if youre that unlucky - youre just that unlucky.

--- Forgot too
The wiz's are mostly support roles as well. They will hide behind the blocks/inbetween and generally keep them hidden from any threats that way. If the enemy doesnt have any real threat to them, obviously pop them out and use them on a more offensive basis.
Alternate thought: it could be possible to run the 45 halb regiment 5x10 deep with the 5 heroes up front and the two wiz's in the second row?

[BlackPawl]

The skaven and High elf scenarios are a bit vague for me to really appreciate... can you post your specific lists? I'd like to anaylze the match up over here =]

Of course I can. My actual league list with my Skaven (2500 points) is:

Grey Seer on bell (Skalm, Powerscroll)

Chieftain, BSB, (Stormbanner)

Plague Priest (lev 2), PC, (Dispel Scroll, Dragon Stone)

Warlock Lev 1 (Doomrocket, Ironcurse)

Warlock (Brass Orb)

100 Slaves with speers
85 slaves
85 slaves

31 clanrats (banner)
WFT Team

5 Giant rats
5 Giant rats

5 Plague Censer Bearer

5 Gutter Runner, poison and slings

HPA with spikes

Doomwheel

WLC

It's also here:
http://www.rheinerftliga.haarrrgh.de...een/stefan.php

-------------

I could shoot up the steam tank with the WLC, my Doomwheel, the Brass orb (but now only with 50% chance) or with the ini spell from the lore of ruin.
If I have no success I would feed him a unit with 85 slaves. Should keep him busy for a while.

It did not concern my slaves with speers that your helbardiers are better and have support from the characters. Even if 36 attacks hit on a 2+ it would mean 20 dead slaves - so I have nothing to fear for 3 rounds. But in this 3 rounds the slaves alone could kill nearly 20 helbardiers, so you would loose some attacks and half of the strengh from your main battle force - and I have a second unit with 85 slaves and my clanrats left for a flank charge.

The detachments alone can not win a fight - not against the HPA, 85 slaves or 5 PCB.

But now the real bad thing: You have 5 drops, after this I see how you deploy. With 5 drops I have 2 rat darts, 5 PCB, one unit with 85 slaves and my WLC placed. So I know where I have to place my doomwheel, my HPA (it will get out of reach from the tank for sure), and my 100 slaves.

One hit from the WLC, a good hit from the doomrocket or from the WFT team could all kill 20 helbardiers in one round.

Then there are 5 Gutter Runner left. I could place them as scouts or could send them in round 2 or 3 from behind your line to catch a mage. And if the mages are not there then they could try to kill one of the chariots - with poison it should not be so hard.


So all in all the idea is good, but the main "error" is that there are too few bodies / units. If your opponent can feed your main force some slaves / night goblins etc. it is not importent if they have 30 or 40 attacks with S4 or S5 or S6 with rerolls - we now that we die, but we can spent the time to kill all the other things and try to get a flank charge.




PS: and hope that no one use the sword of anti heroes against your unit - +5 attacks and +5 S will do some damage …

[keldon33]

It is a good list BlackPawl... but its 2500 pts... you can't really draw a fair comparison to a 2000 pt army.... do you have a skaven list at 2000 pts? would be great to theorize about that fight here.

Regardless, heres how I see my counter points:

1. Your list can't really stop my magic. Therefore I should be getting some crucial life and light spells off. So target my S-tank with the WLC and Doomwheel - get a handful of wounds on it first round. Cast regrowth on S-tank (hopefully buffed at this point with throne of vines for d6+1 wounds recovered). Alternatively, cast pha's protection, and make both the WLC and Doomwheel roll 4+ before it can hit the S-tank. If I'm worried about the brass orb, cast light speed and give that s-tank I 10 to pass the test. Theres also flesh to stone to buff up the toughness. And theres also the option of Birona's Timewarp - charge the steam tank 3D6" x 2 against the doomwheel then onto the WLC...
So ok, if you get the slaves maneuvered right (tough with that doomwheel shooting off at closest targets friend or foe I would think) -1 unit of slaves.

2. If I get Net of Amyntok and cast it on your bell unit (not sure which one is)... units got issues moving and casting spells... or cast on that clan rat unit and muddle the whole advancing attack... failing that i could get dweller's bellow and cause even more probs....

3. Detachment might not win but won't break either... steadfest + hold the line (3d6 discard highest) ... + they are getting a nice 5++ ward save from the priests, or atleast 6++ from hysh... if I really need them to have some staying power against the PCB, cast flesh to stone

Battle line will look something like this then:
85 slaves/PCB-----100 slaves------31 clanrats/HPA-------85slaves/Doomwheel
20 halbs----------50halb unit--------20halbs------------------s-tank
----------Hysh-----------------Hurri

But the Hysh and Hurri can charge up in the 3" gap between regimental and detachment and hit those PCB/slaves/clanrats in the flank.... if you do manage to get the giant rats squeezed in the mass of troops to tie up the wizmobiles they will only last a turn and in turn two they will be free to impact hits the flanks they need to...

I don't really care too much if I get out deployed... the opponent can only fit so many troops into one area at a time.. and I will be forcing them to fight confined and concentrated where my troops are buffed and ready to take them... other than the wizards... i don't have anything that I really fear being attacked... I'll be most likely ducking my wiz's inbetween the 3" gap between the regiment and the detachments where blocks of units cannot get at them...


you've got those gutter runners... but that brings me to the last point

and that is again this is all based on an army that is 2,500 pts... your're gonna have to give some stuff up in this list if you want to battle my list... and thats just gonna make the match up even better...

Post up a 2,000 pt list - I appreciate it a lot.. I would like to theorize as much as I can before I invest in this army so if you got extra time hanging around I wouldn't mind keeping this going for a bit =]

[keldon33]

P.P.S. I would love sword of anti heroes to hit my hero unit... WP with VHS... bam looks like I'm getting +5 str, +5 attacks in the challenge!

[Valaraukar]

I don't think VHS works like that although again the wording is not clear otherwise who gets the +2S from a great weapon you or your opponent also they would have to challenge you more likely they will simply allocate attacks knowing of the VHS and if you challenge accept with a champion.

[keldon33]

Yeah VHS is unclear in the new version... it doesnt state "base stats" anymore... so I read them dropping that clause in compensation for also dropping the WS swap and then upping the points... so on that basis whatever you have on your profile in the time of the challenge is what gets swapped.

Having him send out his unit champion... what a cowardly thing to do! =] but in that case, yah I could take it on the chin... he's still going to find it tough to hit my important characters at -2 to hit... if i also get off light speed my chars prolly going to get to jab him first and hopefully that kind of power will get him killed before he strikes... so it could be bad, but prolly not that bad. I'll also most likely get that witch hunter accusing the anti-hero and shooting at him/re-rolling to hit killing blow him as much as I can before he can strike.

Who takes the anti-hero sword really anyways? 30 pts for a wep that will most likely just get you +1 str +1 a... don't see it that often

[BlackPawl]

Ok, you are right, it was 500 points to much. But who says that skaven fight a fair fight? :-)

My powerd down list would be (2000 points):

Grey Seer, 4+ Ward, Power Scroll

Chieftain, BSB

Plague Priest lev. 2, plague cencer, Dispel Scroll, Dragon stone

Warlock with pistol and doom rocket

100 slaves with speers, musician

75 slaves, musician

75 slaves, musician

25 clanrats, banner (BSB and GS goes here)

2 rat darts

5 Gutter Runner, poison, slings

HPA with spikes

Doomwheel

WLC

So I have only lost the screaming bell, a warlock lev 1 with brass orb, plague censer unit and 20 slaves - not real much.


The VHS do not swap bonus stats like the +5 /+5 from the sword of anti-heroes (at least not in the german edition) - but would it be it would be nice if you had some spells like flesh to stone or speed of light get cast and I would get the bonus from it! ;-)

Yes it may be that at some time you get some good spell trough, but I have seen to much battles (except with Teclis or Book of Hoeth) where each side get just one spell through in just every other round. You can not depend on it.
And even if you do, I could hope the same: one good magic phase with one plague spell and then (with the free warp tokens and the power scoll) the dreaded 13th could nearly wipe out the main combat unit - espesially if it got hit with the WFT / Doom rocket / WCL first. Or wither the main block, do death frenzy on the 100 slaves with speers (that's 60 attacks against T3!!!).

Last time against vampires it took two turns to kill his grave guard and his general in two turns with the 13th spell (thanks to the dispell scroll to stop a resurrection spell).

You can not go with the wizardmobiles between the units - they are to big so the detachments are more than 3" from their parent unit and loose all the benefits. And because I will have more drops I could also send the Doomwheel or the HPA against them. Rat darts are not there to fight them, they could hunt wizards instead. :-)

What answer will you have to the HPA, it should be in the second turn in close combat?

[Dreadlordpaul]

I can see what your trying to do man but I could simply walk all over this army with both my WoC and my DE. Even my DE who can get alot of extra dice cant depend on the magic phase.

[BlackPawl]

I can see what your trying to do man but I could simply walk all over this army with both my WoC and my DE. Even my DE who can get alot of extra dice cant depend on the magic phase.

Did you mean the empire or the skaven army - or both?

[Dreadlordpaul]

Did you mean the empire or the skaven army - or both?

Empire your skaven would actually scare me

[keldon33]

Post up a list Dread - no vague blanket statements here... trying to theorize everything out as you can see.

Nice 2000 BlackPawl - I'm still not convinced it's an easy win for you tho...

1. Our Magic is different:
Look at some math for evidence of this reasoning...

Channeling = 5 dice ... odds = 60% i will get atleast 1 six in a given phase + 1 auto dice from wizmobiles... thats most times being +2 dice on you every magic phase
So use that data in a scenario then...

Your magic is based on the hope of a single good turn, you dont have anything helping to contribute consistant dice bonuses. Odds are this wont happen but lets use a really bad case scenario... say 6+5 rolled on the winds... So you get 11 PD ... I'll get 5 DD + 1 DD Hysh, + most likely minimum 1 DD from channelings... so 11 PD vs 7 DD... You're still gonna need the majority of dice to ensure you get that dread thirteenth off (and even if you get a plague spell remember my unit is MR 2 + 6++ so effectively has a 4+ ward save vs spells) so I would probably say thats all thats getting off in even a really good turn... 4d6 dead halbs = avg. 14 dead halbs... so just down to 31 halbs...

On my magic turn.. just an avg turn say 3+3 on winds roll... 6PD + 1 PD from canum + 1 most likely from channelings ... so 8 PD ... against your 3 DD... I could use life wiz with throne to cast regrowth (gain back D6+1 models) with 5 PD and it will probably go through if i really thought I wanted some of those halbs back.... still got 3 PD for other spells after even... and can safely still save my Forbidden rod and Power Stone for a more important turn... and thats an average turn...

My magic could have a bad turn sure... but the odds are i'm going to have a useable magic phase in every turn... and better odds that I will always have atleast 1 turn in the game where my magic just dominates (do to channelling odds, power stone and forbidden rod) So in battles with this list, my spells almost certainly will be getting through and getting through more often then you might be used to...

Even with a bad turn... lets say i roll 3+1 winds - so 4PD + 1 PD wizmobile and no channeling even... so 5 PD vs 3 DD... Well I could just cast alot of low level spells that would only require 1 PD for 50% chance with a lvl 4 (these incluse flesh stone, phas protection, speed of light, then all of my WP bound spells which are 66% + my wizmobile bound spells). So if I do this, I can risk rolling a 1 or 2 and haivng a wiz knocked out that turn and still have another lvl 4 good to go... if you want to dispel more than 1 spell your gonna need to split your dd up and risk rolling a 1 or 2 yourself and risk knocking your own lvl 4 wiz out with no back up lvl 4 dispeller... Getting +2 casting over your lvl 2 wiz is a good size head to head 1 dice roll each advantage for me...

So in conclusion my magic has some very promising advatanges over your own...

2. The VHS - The english new rules here seem to read that they do swap any bonus's like I mentioned, so until it's faq'd lets use that assumption. But guess what... Light Speed's bonus wont help you in a challenge - you don't swap WS... and the toughness wont matter against st 9 anyways...

3. You can charge the wiz mobile up through the detachment and regiment... wizmobile is only 2" wide.. there is a 3" gap... the rules state that you can move a unit closer to within 1" of another unit if it is charging... So if you hit my 20 halbs with a horde slave pit... they stick out past the halbs.. I can charge the wizmobile straight up to the slaves...

HPA will be tough to deal with, but it will have to go on the flank the S-tank isnt on... and ill put my hysh on that side to give that regiment the 6++ save, hopefully a wp will already have the 5++ save anyways... If I get it, can cast light of battle and make sure they pass all leadership test that round, otherwise, cast flesh stone or phas if I can to help out...
Before the HPA gets to combat... Ill use the hysh S8 D3 wound laser to hit at it... couple turns it could be down... its gonna come down to maneuvering and dice rolling with all that though... but I dont think its an auto win threat...

Are you ok with this back and forth counter arguing? I'm fine with it... some people get angry though

[Valaraukar]

It may not be what you want to hear but I can think of a few scenarios which really ruin your day firstly anything which kills your magic phase such as the cube of darkness for lizardmen, don't have the book in front of me for high Elves but don't they also have an item which can achieve a similar effect? Khorne daemons or dwarves with multiple dispel scroll equivalents if this happens the turn before the two armies meet I can't help but feel that with your one unit even with characters you'll suffer against combo charging combat armies.

Warriors can also force a miscast on one of your key mages or if (un)lucky get the hellcannon misfire making all of them miscast or lizardmen can transfer one with cupped hands, these are really just weaknesses of any magic dependent list but yours especially as it has very little else to mitigate the risk which is where I think either some more combat units or a few chaff units to delay their army so it's approach is staggered would really help this list out. Also by going with two level 4s if you're really set on some of those spells you have no guarantee of getting them at least if you took a 4 and a 2 from one you could be certain and also save some points for the above.

[keldon33]

No no.. ofcourse it's good to hear Vala... and valid points too. I am looking at what else I can do to the list... so its good to think about all of these scenarios.

I'm not too worried though in a lot of those situations... even without magic for a turn, my 50 man strong character + halb unit is gonna last atleast 1 turn vs anything you mentioned above and still have steadfast and hold the line... I can't think of much that is gonna be able to wipe my magic clean and have a unit that is capable of decimating the halbs so they have a good chance of breaking in a single turn... agreed though if i can figure out a way to squeeze a pit unit/chaff unit in I will.

As for cupped hands.. my wizards are gonna be behind my halbs.. so no line of sight and no threat there...
Hellcannon heavy army would suck... but if I get throne of vines.. atleast 1 lvl 4 wizard isnt going to worry about miscasts
I don't need to make sure i get all of the spells in a single lore... 4 spells from each will give me plenty of options to help my units out

[Dreadlordpaul]

Sure my list is
Lord
Vilitch

Heroes
Chaos sorceror level 2 MoT Puppet

Exalted tzeench shield bsb black tongue
Core
20x chaos warriors MoT Full Command Shields

19x chaos Marauders tzeench shields and light armour full command

Special


5x Chaos Knights with Standard and muscian MoN Banner Of Rage
Rare
2x hell cannons

[BlackPawl]

Post up a list Dread - no vague blanket statements here... trying to theorize everything out as you can see.

Nice 2000 BlackPawl - I'm still not convinced it's an easy win for you tho...

1. Our Magic is different:
Look at some math for evidence of this reasoning...

Channeling = 5 dice ... odds = 60% i will get atleast 1 six in a given phase + 1 auto dice from wizmobiles... thats most times being +2 dice on you every magic phase
So use that data in a scenario then...

Your magic is based on the hope of a single good turn, you dont have anything helping to contribute consistant dice bonuses. Odds are this wont happen but lets use a really bad case scenario... say 6+5 rolled on the winds... So you get 11 PD ... I'll get 5 DD + 1 DD Hysh, + most likely minimum 1 DD from channelings... so 11 PD vs 7 DD... You're still gonna need the majority of dice to ensure you get that dread thirteenth off (and even if you get a plague spell remember my unit is MR 2 + 6++ so effectively has a 4+ ward save vs spells) so I would probably say thats all thats getting off in even a really good turn... 4d6 dead halbs = avg. 14 dead halbs... so just down to 31 halbs...

On my magic turn.. just an avg turn say 3+3 on winds roll... 6PD + 1 PD from canum + 1 most likely from channelings ... so 8 PD ... against your 3 DD... I could use life wiz with throne to cast regrowth (gain back D6+1 models) with 5 PD and it will probably go through if i really thought I wanted some of those halbs back.... still got 3 PD for other spells after even... and can safely still save my Forbidden rod and Power Stone for a more important turn... and thats an average turn...

My magic could have a bad turn sure... but the odds are i'm going to have a useable magic phase in every turn... and better odds that I will always have atleast 1 turn in the game where my magic just dominates (do to channelling odds, power stone and forbidden rod) So in battles with this list, my spells almost certainly will be getting through and getting through more often then you might be used to...

Even with a bad turn... lets say i roll 3+1 winds - so 4PD + 1 PD wizmobile and no channeling even... so 5 PD vs 3 DD... Well I could just cast alot of low level spells that would only require 1 PD for 50% chance with a lvl 4 (these incluse flesh stone, phas protection, speed of light, then all of my WP bound spells which are 66% + my wizmobile bound spells). So if I do this, I can risk rolling a 1 or 2 and haivng a wiz knocked out that turn and still have another lvl 4 good to go... if you want to dispel more than 1 spell your gonna need to split your dd up and risk rolling a 1 or 2 yourself and risk knocking your own lvl 4 wiz out with no back up lvl 4 dispeller... Getting +2 casting over your lvl 2 wiz is a good size head to head 1 dice roll each advantage for me...

So in conclusion my magic has some very promising advatanges over your own...

2. The VHS - The english new rules here seem to read that they do swap any bonus's like I mentioned, so until it's faq'd lets use that assumption. But guess what... Light Speed's bonus wont help you in a challenge - you don't swap WS... and the toughness wont matter against st 9 anyways...

3. You can charge the wiz mobile up through the detachment and regiment... wizmobile is only 2" wide.. there is a 3" gap... the rules state that you can move a unit closer to within 1" of another unit if it is charging... So if you hit my 20 halbs with a horde slave pit... they stick out past the halbs.. I can charge the wizmobile straight up to the slaves...

HPA will be tough to deal with, but it will have to go on the flank the S-tank isnt on... and ill put my hysh on that side to give that regiment the 6++ save, hopefully a wp will already have the 5++ save anyways... If I get it, can cast light of battle and make sure they pass all leadership test that round, otherwise, cast flesh stone or phas if I can to help out...
Before the HPA gets to combat... Ill use the hysh S8 D3 wound laser to hit at it... couple turns it could be down... its gonna come down to maneuvering and dice rolling with all that though... but I dont think its an auto win threat...

Are you ok with this back and forth counter arguing? I'm fine with it... some people get angry though

I need not many dices to get the 13th off: only 3 dice and the power scroll will do it. I can even with one free warp token and the power scroll get plague off - maybe starting with your detachment on one side and if it do not stop it will hit your main block. And if it is reduced to 10 men I can also try to get the 13th off, so I would have a small unit of clanrats in your flank.

If you charge the wizmobile into the slaves I am happy. After one or two turns of combat there will be no more detachment there (not against 30 attacks S3 against T3 helbardiers), so your wizmobile will loose the battle and maybe get killed in the pursuit. It is NOT a combat unit.

I do not depend on magic, but a good magic phase (supported with 1-3 free warp tokens) will do some damage. Even if I did not get a good hit with my WFT because of the light spell I have time on my side. If I loose 20 slaves and you 8 helbardiers it is a win for me.
What will you do if you got hit from a doomrocket and a WFT in one turn? That means more than 30 dead helbardiers, more than you can recover in one turn.

My HPA will be in combat in turn 2, so I have only to worry one magic phase. For this I have a dispell scroll ...


And as others said: against some opponents which have better protection against magic (HE, Ogres with Hellheart, dwarves etc.) you can not depent on your magic. High elves have an item which cancels a whole magic phase. If they do this the turn they get into close combat then it will be very hard for you (and this is not the optimal choice which means there is no BoH there).

[keldon33]

Good List Paul - I'll look at that situation in a bit... BlackPawl is a handful =]

Ok:
3 dice with power scroll on 13th is only a 44% chance you will get doubles. First though, you need to hope you get a good magic phase if you want to be able to cast a plague spell and then use 3 dice + powerscroll to cast thirteenth. Then you need to hope this phase comes within the first two turns before our forces clash... On top of that... I get such a good chance of getting DD that most likely I'll force you to use a lot of dice just to cast a plague spell and in which case the odds of miscasting go up significantly. If you miscast the first time, theres a good chance you wont have the power dice, or the ability, or a wizard left even to cast the thirteenth. Even if you do get thirteenth off, that miscast has a good chance of really knocking your grey seer out of the game from that point on leaving my magic free to cast just about anything I want.

My detachment is setup 5x4... your slaves will only get 7x3 attacks = 21. Halbs will get 6+ AS and WP 5++ save. So not so many casualities in a single turn as you might think... in that turn or the following I could even get off a f2s or pha's or even a dwellers if i thought I needed to eliminate the unit...

I don't see WFT in your 2000 pt list... Doomfire rocket is nice - it will hurt, but its highly unpredictable unless used at short range.. gives me some time to figure out if I want to deal with him through any magic range attacks or even witchhunter, is the warlock in a unit?

If you start the game with the HPA on the other side from the S-tank. What I can do is move my army up except the s-tank. Pivot him and charge him 3d6 across the back of my lines, pivot to face the HPA, take a cannonball shot in the shooting phase at it. The doomwheel is much less effective in combat... Roll the s-tank up next turn to take on the HPA...

What happens if I get both Birona's Timewarp and Dwellers... With so much PD generation and both lvl 4 wiz's I could get these both off with 7 PD or so... you dispel dwellers naturally, and could even use up the dispel scroll (provided I havent cast irresistable force) on the first turn... Your second turn comes and the slaves still havent hit my regiment... Now I cast the same two spells... you dispel dwellers but this time Birona's gets off and now my regimental unit hits your slaves with 68 attacks ASF with +1 to hit, 50 of which are re-roll to hit... and if I had a good magic phase, combined with the forbidden rod or power stone I'd still have a couple pd hanging around for a priest buff or shield of thorns... That slave unit is gonna break in the next combat round forsure freeing my main regiment to deal with the flank threats...

Orge with hellheart will be a bit annoying... but hopefully my life wiz will get the throne spell and not worry... all of the life and light buffs have pretty good range... could sit my wiz lords way back on that one...
HE, Lizard by far will be my worst nightmares... if I go up against an army that has really good DD generation + multiple strong units then it's going to get ugly forsure... but most of these armies take just enough magic defence to completely stop a single turn - I already mentioned my units can handle atleast 1 turn against these races without magic... Hopefully someone posts up some lists for these guys so I can theorize it better

[Jind_Singh]

Goblin Warboss
Night Goblin level 4

Goblin BSB
Night Goblin big boss
Night Goblin big boss on hopper

45 Goblins, command
48 Night goblins, command, netters, fanatic
5 Spider Riders

15 Squigs, 10 herders
5 Squig Hoppers
Wolf Chariot
Wolf Chariot
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka

Giant
Arachnarok Spider


That's my standard 2000 point list - and they would RELISH a chance to get their teef into your army!!

Turn 1 - I shoot my spear chukkas at your wizard mobile with the giant laser beam - my magic weakens up your core unit (If the spell goes off of course!)
Turn 2 - I shoot my spear chukkas at the steam tank - magic to weaken the core unit

And that's it - my army advances - the Giant is going to heading towards the steam tank to distract it - but my main objective will be to outflank and overwhelm the core unit.


And buffs or no buffs - that unit will go down - but if you had even a character with a crown of command to make the core unit stubborn....that would be handy as it'll allow the core unit to hold the battle line.

Combine that with a BSB and a captain's actual ability to hold the line - we got a real tar pit unit.

Once you start putting buffs on the unit they become a hammer unit too.


But either way - you can see that while the concept of a character heavy list to buff units is sound in principle, on the table top they don't always perform as well - I also follow a similar approach but limit it to 1-2 characters per combat unit

I still think you can safely drop a warrior priest or two without ruining the overall feel of your army - but the gains additional units provide is HUGE!!!

I would suggest 5 Outriders at the bare minimum or a cannon from the points - they will do a lot for your options during a game.