New Empire 2000 pts Magic/Char Hvy Build

[keldon33]

Paul how is your army put together? Characters in which unit? Who is solo? - also you really roll with that Chaos army? It looks like it has some serious drawbacks itself... a proper gunline with solid blocks would pose a lot of problems no?

Thanks for the advice Jind... I will look at scenarios with your army too when I can get around to it here =] It would be nice to have another unit or a cannon... but the WP arnt just to make a character strong star unit.. getting 5 channelling dice each turn makes for strong magic on the average.... I know its not popular but a lot of people go on feeling/experience and they see battles go terribly wrong with magic because it can and then think its not sensible... but mathematically 5 channelling dice is really good and should provide excellent boost coupled with the rod and power stone to make sure my spells and dd are top notch relative to any other armies... the only other armies that really get this kind of magic is HE and Lizard... but when they do they dont get 3 characters that are also quite combat capable as well...

Gonna look into options for this list in order to tweak though

[Dreadlordpaul]

Paul how is your army put together? Characters in which unit? Who is solo? - also you really roll with that Chaos army? It looks like it has some serious drawbacks itself... a proper gunline with solid blocks would pose a lot of problems no?

Thanks for the advice Jind... I will look at scenarios with your army too when I can get around to it here =] It would be nice to have another unit or a cannon... but the WP arnt just to make a character strong star unit.. getting 5 channelling dice each turn makes for strong magic on the average.... I know its not popular but a lot of people go on feeling/experience and they see battles go terribly wrong with magic because it can and then think its not sensible... but mathematically 5 channelling dice is really good and should provide excellent boost coupled with the rod and power stone to make sure my spells and dd are top notch relative to any other armies... the only other armies that really get this kind of magic is HE and Lizard... but when they do they dont get 3 characters that are also quite combat capable as well...

Gonna look into options for this list in order to tweak though

Vilitch and exalted in the warriors, level 2 goes in the Marauders. While i agree a gun line COULD tear me apart this list enables me to dominate both mine and my opponents magic phases. This is mainly due to vilitch, For every spell you FAIL to cast i get the power dice used to add to my dispell dice, and for every spell cast by vilitch which you fail to dispell i get the dice used as extra power dice. Now the black tongue goes and takes a wound off my exalted BUT it then turns one of your failed casting attempts into a miscast. Now add pandemonium into the mix and ive got you stuck between a rock and a hard place magic phase wise.

[BigbyWolf]

Vilitch and exalted in the warriors, level 2 goes in the Marauders. While i agree a gun line COULD tear me apart this list enables me to dominate both mine and my opponents magic phases. This is mainly due to vilitch, For every spell you FAIL to cast i get the power dice used to add to my dispell dice, and for every spell cast by vilitch which you fail to dispell i get the dice used as extra power dice. Now the black tongue goes and takes a wound off my exalted BUT it then turns one of your failed casting attempts into a miscast. Now add pandemonium into the mix and ive got you stuck between a rock and a hard place magic phase wise.

What happens when Vilitch dies though? He tends to do that in the games I've seen him in, more so if you put him in your main combat unit. Take into account you're now facing an Empire army with a character that can declare him a heretic and things look a lot trickier. The best counter to Vilitch is to restrict your casting until you've killed him (which can be accomplished within the first two turns, if you're careful).

[BlackPawl]

So now only a few words because I am at work:

The MR2 and 6++ ward will only work on the main regiment, not on the detachments.

What you did not take into account are the scenarios:

* With Watchtower you have a problem if you are the defender because you have no unit to place there (detachments have to stay 3" from their parent unit), so the attacker will get into it and then it will be a problem to get them out (100 slaves, 100 Night goblins, Swordmasters etc.).

* With the scenario with reserves it could have a problem because if you get a 1 for the main unit you will have it harder against anything that can outshoot you because they have more time.

* With the scenario where you have to roll at which side your army deploy (left flank, centre, right flank) it could you have your uunits scattered around the board. It is also for the enemy, but because you want your units together for the effects it could be that it will really hurt you.


And I do not need to get a double on 3 dices to get the spell of. With 7 dices I would through five or six dices into plague, hoping you will try to dispell it. After that and with only one power dice (and one or two warp tokens) together with the power scroll I could easily the 13th off.

You said that a miscast would hurt me. That's right, but only if I get a 2-4 ABD the 1-3 on the roll (maybe there are some dead slaves, but that did not matters. they are slaves).
But every miscast you do will hurt your magic phase (because you loose 1d6 power dices) and you depend more on magic than me.

[Dreadlordpaul]

What happens when Vilitch dies though? He tends to do that in the games I've seen him in, more so if you put him in your main combat unit. Take into account you're now facing an Empire army with a character that can declare him a heretic and things look a lot trickier. The best counter to Vilitch is to restrict your casting until you've killed him (which can be accomplished within the first two turns, if you're careful).

While witch hunters may cause me a hard time if he doesent make his unit immune to panic the panic test at -2 from the hell cannons will give him a problem, Also aint his pistols 12" range

[keldon33]

BlackPawl -

The 6++ will work on detachments... i can setup the Hysh behind the regimental unit in the middle, and set the detachments to line up with the backline of the regiments... everybody is 5" away from Hysh... as you move closer or I move up, I can make minor maneuvers to form the line how I originally wanted - which will still give the regimental unit and one detachment the buff. By this time your plague +thirteenth will have needed to get off anyways.

Scenarios:
Watchtower will be treaky. but the other two arnt that bad.. cant prevent all bad luck in the game, if I roll a 1 on the main unit just the way it went...

I am confused on your reasoning with the spells? If you only have 1 dice (+ say 2 tokens) for thirteenth, doesnt that mean 3 dice total? Powerscroll will only cast with irresistable force on doubles... 3 dice to get a double = 44% chance?

Don't forget 10-12 on the miscast... a power drain is seriously going to hurt your ability to stop any of my magic in subsequent turns...
My own miscasts, for the most part I would be planning to use large dice rolls after I made all of my small spell dice rolls - so dice loss is not a big issue, my wizards are also out of units so no surrounding casualities, and I have a Life wizard who heals up lost wounds no problem... Don't let your clanrats with the GS get within 12" of my WH after he only has 2 wounds left...

[BlackPawl]

BlackPawl -

The 6++ will work on detachments... i can setup the Hysh behind the regimental unit in the middle, and set the detachments to line up with the backline of the regiments... everybody is 5" away from Hysh... as you move closer or I move up, I can make minor maneuvers to form the line how I originally wanted - which will still give the regimental unit and one detachment the buff. By this time your plague +thirteenth will have needed to get off anyways.

Scenarios:
Watchtower will be treaky. but the other two arnt that bad.. cant prevent all bad luck in the game, if I roll a 1 on the main unit just the way it went...

I am confused on your reasoning with the spells? If you only have 1 dice (+ say 2 tokens) for thirteenth, doesnt that mean 3 dice total? Powerscroll will only cast with irresistable force on doubles... 3 dice to get a double = 44% chance?

Don't forget 10-12 on the miscast... a power drain is seriously going to hurt your ability to stop any of my magic in subsequent turns...
My own miscasts, for the most part I would be planning to use large dice rolls after I made all of my small spell dice rolls - so dice loss is not a big issue, my wizards are also out of units so no surrounding casualities, and I have a Life wizard who heals up lost wounds no problem... Don't let your clanrats with the GS get within 12" of my WH after he only has 2 wounds left...

Read the FAQ: the power scroll halves the power level of a spell, so I need only a 13+ to cast the 13th - with +4 and three dice it should be good enough!

My GS (and any other GS out there) will NEVER be 12" from any eneym unit (we are Skaven and that's the way we fight). He stays in his bunker unit behind 100 slaves - so no chance you will reach him. But my gutter runner will reach your lone wizards very fast.

The WFT is still in the list, I have only forget to write it there (and there are just 20 points left to spent).

Just read your post again - you want to cast:
* Phas Light so I have problems to target your units with my WFT / Doomrocket / WLC - assuming you will cast it on one unit I can still choose another unit, so you have to cast it in the bigger version (12+), so you need 3 PD
* you want to cast Amyntoks net, so another 2 PD
* Flesh to stone for protection: one or two more dices
* Dwellers from below: 4 PD
* the missile from the Hysh mobile: 2 PD or in close combat 2 battle prayers (also 2 PD)

So 12 power dices, not to mention some other spells from Life or Bironas or Fast as Light to boost your combat abilities. And that even without any miscast etc. and not considering any dispell. Even after 3 Dwellers on my slaves (and assuming that I do 0 wounds to you in my magic or ballistic phases) I have still more bodies on the field than you have in your starting force (and a HPA, a WLC, Doomwheel etc.).
Even after entering close combat you could not cast dwellers into close combat with my slaves anymore, while I can cast plague into it (and shoot into it).
And at some time I will hit one of the wizmobiles with my WLC (or with cracks call, my Doomwheel or the gutter runner), so don't hope that you will have the support very long)

So no, I don't see it as a real threat! But give us some information after the first few battles with this list, so that we know how it works in a real battle.

[keldon33]

Ah, didnt realise the rules were changed for powerscroll. Nevertheless, let you use 6 dice on a plague spell - don't attempt to dispel... take the hit (if you hit my main unit they get a 4+ ward) then use DD for the 13th... not too bad. Theres also always the chance I have a good channeling or you have a bad winds in the first 2 turns like I said, in which case I will be setup pretty good to dispel everything...

If you arnt using those clanrats for combat then they arnt much of a unit... I only have to deal with 3 slave units + doomwheel + HPA.... I've got 3 units + S-tank... you potentially could flank a single unit then with the doomwheel...I'll cast to help that unit out...

My post doesnt say I need to cast all of that... it jsut says I have lots of options for casting things for various situations...
I just need to cast a single buff for that flanked unit, and throw a ton of the rest of the dice at birona's on the main unit to end your 100 slaves in 1 full turn of combat... that would be enough to deal with your slave units head on...
Before combat, throw a ton of dice into the buffed up version of pha's and give all of my units shooting protection.

But yeah - I think we've theorized this match up enough - I'm still convinced my army can offer a decent fight against your list. I will definatly post up info when Ive managed to put this army together and played some games. =]

[keldon33]

Paul - Your list is a good match up vs mine (not against dwarf gunline though =])

but anyways, your list doesnt dominate the magic phase quite like you think. Some crucial points:
1. Vilitch will only gain PD if a spell is unsuccessfully cast - Therefore, while he is alive, I just need to throw enough dice at a spell to ensure it has a 85% chance or better to cast. With lvl 4's and life and light magic (the cheapest magics) thats not too difficult at all...
2. Vilitch will only gain DD if I fail to dispel a spell - Just means I will only throw enough DD at dispel attempts to ensure a very good chance of dispelling while he is alive...
3. Black Tongue - Only can force a miscast on unsuccessful cast - Again, just use enough PD to ensure a very good chance of success and this item is useless (also if I just risk with the life wizard while he has thrones on I will discard the miscast on 2+)... (also I can still use my 3 WP's to cast their spells and risk unsuccessful casts with the Black Tongue because the WP never suffers from the miscast table)
4. You have only 2 channeling attempts and no auto dice generators... Against my +1 auto dice in each phase, + 5 channeling attempts, + my arcane PD adding items, my magic will almost certainly be stronger...

So with this in mind lets look at how I can mitigate those scary hellcannons. I will be unlucky not to get either Pha's or Light of Battle... so lets assume I get 1... say Light of Battle... During my magic phase I roll 3+2 for winds (a below avg roll), +1 auto PD, +1 from channeling, therefore the dice are as follows : 7 PD for me 3 DD for you... I throw 5 PD at the buffed up verison of Light of Battle and every unit in 12" will auto pass all Panic tests... no worries about the hellcannons now.

Once my troops close the gap, your's will be in big trouble... it shouldn't be hard to kill vilitch and then be able to cast at will to finish off your army...

[keldon33]

Goblin Warboss
Night Goblin level 4

Goblin BSB
Night Goblin big boss
Night Goblin big boss on hopper

45 Goblins, command
48 Night goblins, command, netters, fanatic
5 Spider Riders

15 Squigs, 10 herders
5 Squig Hoppers
Wolf Chariot
Wolf Chariot
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka

Giant
Arachnarok Spider


That's my standard 2000 point list - and they would RELISH a chance to get their teef into your army!!

Turn 1 - I shoot my spear chukkas at your wizard mobile with the giant laser beam - my magic weakens up your core unit (If the spell goes off of course!)
Turn 2 - I shoot my spear chukkas at the steam tank - magic to weaken the core unit

And that's it - my army advances - the Giant is going to heading towards the steam tank to distract it - but my main objective will be to outflank and overwhelm the core unit.


And buffs or no buffs - that unit will go down - but if you had even a character with a crown of command to make the core unit stubborn....that would be handy as it'll allow the core unit to hold the battle line.

Combine that with a BSB and a captain's actual ability to hold the line - we got a real tar pit unit.

Once you start putting buffs on the unit they become a hammer unit too.


But either way - you can see that while the concept of a character heavy list to buff units is sound in principle, on the table top they don't always perform as well - I also follow a similar approach but limit it to 1-2 characters per combat unit

I still think you can safely drop a warrior priest or two without ruining the overall feel of your army - but the gains additional units provide is HUGE!!!

I would suggest 5 Outriders at the bare minimum or a cannon from the points - they will do a lot for your options during a game.

Not so fast Jind...

Your missing the main and most important strength of my army... the magic.
You have a single, bare, lvl 4 shaman... I have already explained thoroughly how effective my magic on average can be and if it is anything more it just dominates...
So you can pretty much rest assured I will be able to get off 2 spells if not more each turn and dispel anything you send at me...

Turn 1: S-tank steams up towards the Arachnarok 3d6"... 2 steam points shoot a cannonball at the giant...
Use enough PD over your DD to successfully cast the Hysh Laser at the giant... dead giant.
Use any left over PD/use power stone to cast regrowth on Hysh if your spear chukka's did any dmg (at long range with BS 3... probably not much)

Turn 2: S-tank charges the spider and effectively kills it.
Magic runs ramapant again ... regrowth anything damaged... etc etc...

Subsequent turns, s-tank charges down the rear of units or hunts the chariots/fires cannonballs at them...
Armies clash, every single one of your goblin characters is without items and protection so they get targeted in combat and die easy...
Is your goblin shaman in a unit? hes gonna die especially quickly if he is...
My magic continues to run rampant...

[Dreadlordpaul]

Paul - Your list is a good match up vs mine (not against dwarf gunline though =])

but anyways, your list doesnt dominate the magic phase quite like you think. Some crucial points:
1. Vilitch will only gain PD if a spell is unsuccessfully cast - Therefore, while he is alive, I just need to throw enough dice at a spell to ensure it has a 85% chance or better to cast. With lvl 4's and life and light magic (the cheapest magics) thats not too difficult at all...
2. Vilitch will only gain DD if I fail to dispel a spell - Just means I will only throw enough DD at dispel attempts to ensure a very good chance of dispelling while he is alive...
3. Black Tongue - Only can force a miscast on unsuccessful cast - Again, just use enough PD to ensure a very good chance of success and this item is useless (also if I just risk with the life wizard while he has thrones on I will discard the miscast on 2+)... (also I can still use my 3 WP's to cast their spells and risk unsuccessful casts with the Black Tongue because the WP never suffers from the miscast table)
4. You have only 2 channeling attempts and no auto dice generators... Against my +1 auto dice in each phase, + 5 channeling attempts, + my arcane PD adding items, my magic will almost certainly be stronger...

So with this in mind lets look at how I can mitigate those scary hellcannons. I will be unlucky not to get either Pha's or Light of Battle... so lets assume I get 1... say Light of Battle... During my magic phase I roll 3+2 for winds (a below avg roll), +1 auto PD, +1 from channeling, therefore the dice are as follows : 7 PD for me 3 DD for you... I throw 5 PD at the buffed up verison of Light of Battle and every unit in 12" will auto pass all Panic tests... no worries about the hellcannons now.

Once my troops close the gap, your's will be in big trouble... it shouldn't be hard to kill vilitch and then be able to cast at will to finish off your army...

You seem to forget my hell cannons they are going to cause you some trouble. Plus i have +5 to cast i could chuck 2 dice at every spell in the lore with him and most likely cast them. Also lets say i have 11 PD i will 2 dice flickering off vilitch 2 dice flickering off the level 2 3 dice a gateway off vilitch. Then should my level 2 get pandemonium as he will always swap 1 spell for flickering, but if i should also get pandemonium on the level 2 i will 2 dice it off him and should you dispell that il 2 dice it off vilitch. You can't stop all my magic. Plus your wizmobiles will die turn 1 to my hell cannons

[vcassano]

Not so fast Jind...

Your missing the main and most important strength of my army... the magic.
You have a single, bare, lvl 4 shaman... I have already explained thoroughly how effective my magic on average can be and if it is anything more it just dominates...
So you can pretty much rest assured I will be able to get off 2 spells if not more each turn and dispel anything you send at me...

Turn 1: S-tank steams up towards the Arachnarok 3d6"... 2 steam points shoot a cannonball at the giant...
Use enough PD over your DD to successfully cast the Hysh Laser at the giant... dead giant.
Use any left over PD/use power stone to cast regrowth on Hysh if your spear chukka's did any dmg (at long range with BS 3... probably not much)

Turn 2: S-tank charges the spider and effectively kills it.
Magic runs ramapant again ... regrowth anything damaged... etc etc...

Subsequent turns, s-tank charges down the rear of units or hunts the chariots/fires cannonballs at them...
Armies clash, every single one of your goblin characters is without items and protection so they get targeted in combat and die easy...
Is your goblin shaman in a unit? hes gonna die especially quickly if he is...
My magic continues to run rampant...

Quite honestly you are overstating the effect that your magic will have on a game. The downside to magic is that it is incredibly random - you have to roll enough dice, you have to get the spell off, you have to not get dispelled AND then you have to resolve the spell effects. The magic phase is set up mechanically so that you should get off one spell a turn (by virtue of the 2 dice generation roll). With luck and clever casting it is possible to do more, but magic is best used to bolster your troops. Which you basically have none of. Jind would thrash your army 9 times out of 10, I'd say. Just because he can actually take a hit.

Really you are trying to do too much with magic for the points level. I don't have the new book but it must be about a 1/3 of your army spent on magic? Plus all the Warrior Priests, which are pseudo-mages. That is just too much. I think replacing one of the wagons and one Wizard Lord with a beefy unit (And/Or Demigryphs - I don't know the points values so I can't be more specific, sorry) would be far better. I have found that far too often there just isn't the means to actually fully utilise a single level 4* through a game. To the point where my 2000 points Ogre Army only has a Level 2.

Now obviously, Empire is a different kettle of fish, but my point is that you should look at what you want your magic to achieve and what it is best at achieving. From there you can make decisions. Empire do not struggle for long range shooting. I'm really confused as to why you think your magic will 'run rampant'. Yes, you will have a good selection of spells (Both lores are EXCELLENT choices for Empire, in my view), but Light and Life work best when buffing troops. Which helps your halberdiers a lot, but they will die eventually.

I don't mean for this to be harsh - I'm merely setting out my reasons. If you disagree, go out, play with it and post up the battle reports (this is the best form of army list critique). Even try using Universal Battle. I am happy to be proven wrong. But your army just looks flimsy. Dreadlordpaul's Chaos army is similarly bad and would get run over pretty easily by a competent player. Units will win you most games; magic is there to make sure they can win encounters that they shouldn't.

*In part this was to do with my lore - Maw is limited at range, has uneven spell selection and is situational; Tzeentch is a bad blend of useless and useful; Heavens is more flexible but sometimes I just don't want to risk it.

[keldon33]

Hey vcassano, no it's not too harsh don't worry... I like to get all feedback no matter what the form... so speak your mind =]

But ok,

Quite honestly you are overstating the effect that your magic will have on a game. The downside to magic is that it is incredibly random - you have to roll enough dice, you have to get the spell off, you have to not get dispelled AND then you have to resolve the spell effects. The magic phase is set up mechanically so that you should get off one spell a turn (by virtue of the 2 dice generation roll). With luck and clever casting it is possible to do more, but magic is best used to bolster your troops. Which you basically have none of. Jind would thrash your army 9 times out of 10, I'd say. Just because he can actually take a hit.

Normally I would agree, effects of magic are overestimated in the magic players mind (under estimated in the magic hater's mind =]) But few armies take on 5 castable characters... In armies that have little defense for magic, I can be using 1 or 2 dice to get off my cheapest spells... if a caster rolls a 1 or 2.. I have 4 other casters behind them... So I get a lot of cheap magic there....
You mention that magic is incredibly random - but in every example I've shown in this thread I'm using weak to average turns to get my magic off... and the chance the opponents have had to dispel have only been good enough to stop 1 (maybe 2 spells a turn)... Post an example of a turn where my winds roll wont be enough to cast off a crucial spell or two (save rolling all 1's and 2's on the dice, that kind of bad luck again can't be averted in some games)
Why do you think I'm not using my magic to bolster my troops and why do you think I "basically have none" of it? That is infact the MAIN reason I am so magic heavy. Most of my examples thus far have been exactly to do that (pha's, light of battle, light speed, birona's, regrowth, f2s, the list keeps going...) Life and Light contain a vast array of troop buffs, which is even stated in their very descriptions of the lores in the main WHRB.

I think replacing one of the wagons and one Wizard Lord with a beefy unit (And/Or Demigryphs - I don't know the points values so I can't be more specific, sorry) would be far better. I have found that far too often there just isn't the means to actually fully utilise a single level 4* through a game. To the point where my 2000 points Ogre Army only has a Level 2.

This is actually a good suggestion you made - I like it. If/When I get my original list setup and play test some games with it, and I find it really just doesnt work like I planned for... this could be a good way to salvage the build. So thanks for this idea =]

[keldon33]

You seem to forget my hell cannons they are going to cause you some trouble. Plus i have +5 to cast i could chuck 2 dice at every spell in the lore with him and most likely cast them. Also lets say i have 11 PD i will 2 dice flickering off vilitch 2 dice flickering off the level 2 3 dice a gateway off vilitch. Then should my level 2 get pandemonium as he will always swap 1 spell for flickering, but if i should also get pandemonium on the level 2 i will 2 dice it off him and should you dispell that il 2 dice it off vilitch. You can't stop all my magic. Plus your wizmobiles will die turn 1 to my hell cannons

Paul-
Heres what I orginally posted...
"So with this in mind lets look at how I can mitigate those scary hellcannons. I will be unlucky not to get either Pha's or Light of Battle... so lets assume I get 1... say Light of Battle... During my magic phase I roll 3+2 for winds (a below avg roll), +1 auto PD, +1 from channeling, therefore the dice are as follows : 7 PD for me 3 DD for you... I throw 5 PD at the buffed up verison of Light of Battle and every unit in 12" will auto pass all Panic tests... no worries about the hellcannons now."
So no, I havent forgotten your hellcannons...

Your +5 is really just +1 over my wiz lords... So your magic phase... (again I will use numbers tilted in your favour AND keep in mind you need your first 2 magic phases to be the ones that count because after that vilitch is in combat and will be targeted like crazy...)... you roll 5+4 on winds... 9 PD for you... I get 4DD + 1DD + 1DD channelling... so 6 DD...
Here are the only spells I will attempt to dispell... Treason of Tzeentch on my main 45 man unit, or Gateway.
Most likely I'll use everything to dispell Treason... and let you cast gateway... my main unit has 4+ ward save vs it and the odds of you getting such a magic phase in the first two turns + casting gateway with 11 or 12 is low.
Ofcourse if I get a pha's off on my main unit, I will probably dispel any gateway and let treason go through - as my unit will be hitting only on a 5+, and then they will have 6++ from hysh.

Pandemonium doesnt scare me in the slightest... I let you cast it, on my turn I cast throne of vines (miscasts discarded on 2+) I then use 2 PD to dispel Pandemonium...

The hellcannons can shoot at my wizmobiles if they want (I prefer that... wont have to worry about my main combat unit breaking)... You still need to score a direct hit with them to deliver a str 10 D6 hit... with single models thats not so easy to do... you then need to roll 5+ on the D6 + hope I don't roll a 6++ to kill the wizmobile in one turn...even if a wizmobile goes down, I hardly need them to take you out in combat...

[danny-d-b]

so what happens if you roll double 1 for magic?
what happens if your block gets hit by a load of shooting 1st turn and you fail your leadership test?

you have over spent in magic and have nothing to help with your avrage leadership, to beat it you just show up with enough templates to kill halbaders and watch them run away- infact dwarfs should do this easy, spam scrolls to dispel magic and then 3 runed of accuracy stone throwers, go from there- with some avrage rolling you should be running before you mages get anywhere

[keldon33]

so what happens if you roll double 1 for magic?

Already covered this... its a very unlikely situation, but in any case its not as bad as you might think... 1+1 PD + 1 auto PD + 1 PD from channelling... 4 PD to enemies 1 DD... can get atleast 1 important spell off and in just about all cases thats all i need..

what happens if your block gets hit by a load of shooting 1st turn and you fail your leadership test?

Depends what shooting I am up against... if it is a lot of bows/crowsbows etc... I can always position the s-tank and 2 wizmobiles infront of my units and effectively provide hard cover.... also could throw a bunch of dice at pha's and have a good shot at irresistable force for pha's Aoe all over my units or f2s on the parent unit...

you have over spent in magic and have nothing to help with your avrage leadership, to beat it you just show up with enough templates to kill halbaders and watch them run away- infact dwarfs should do this easy, spam scrolls to dispel magic and then 3 runed of accuracy stone throwers, go from there- with some avrage rolling you should be running before you mages get anywhere

admittedly dwarf gunline with more than 1+ dispel items will be one of my toughest challenges... but every army does have a weakness... in any case if i couldnt get phas off here, or light of battle, or even f2s, or any magic... absolute best case scenario is 57 str 3 hits + 3 str 9 hits...
rolling is as follows: 4+ to wound, 6+ AS, 6++ ward save. so 25ish dead halbs... roll to panic and hopefully get 8 or below... if not, after this turn has used up the dispel items, cast light of battle (or even just rally on a natural roll of 8 or under) and still have enough to spout off a pha's/f2s on the main unit now for much greater protection in the following turns (power stone + forbidden rod will surely give me more than enough pd to ensure I'm able to cast atleast 2 spells this turn)... meanwhile while all this is going on, s-tank is most likely already in range to hit a warmachine, and also charging a unit of dwarves to grind down...

[BlackPawl]

It's funny that everyone says that this list is to magic heavy for 2000 points.

I have startet a post in the general forum, just to get a few more opinions ...

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...-army-will-win

[danny-d-b]

how are you planning on casting magic if your fleeing? (I didn't think you could?
plus with 45 halbaders your going to be deployed quiet deeply on the board edge, if you do flee, its not far to take the unit with all your hero's off the board edge- and while yes you could plonk your steam tank and magic things right in front of the unit. with something that wide stonethrowers and cannons should still be able to see them, unless your deploying all 3 sideways- and just fire the cannons at the magic things and watch them hit the unit as well, so two for the price of 1 (yes at least that way your blocking stonethrowers, but I could just clip the rear of them with the template, it doesn't say anywhere in the rules that the center of the template has to be over the center of a chariot to my knowllage

so yep I'd just turn up with a rune lord, a couple of rune smiths, a BSB and core infanty and then 3 cannons and 3 stone throwers (all with with rune of accuracys and various other runes), yep its slightly list tailering but hay its prob only interms of caracters

[Dreadlordpaul]

Danny is right. I myself have fought against a empire list like this before but minus the magic wagons and witch huntee as it was in the old book, i crushed it within 3 turns

[Tarian]

To chip in, one really nasty magic phase, i.e. Dwellers Below, is going to make a horrid mess of that unit.

Lords:
Teclis
Lore of Life

Heroes:
Mage
Level 2
Annulian Crystal
High Magic


Noble
Battle Standard
Armor of Caledor
Great Weapon

Core:
Lothern Seaguard x15
Standard
Champion
Musician

Lothern Seaguard x20
Standard
Champion
Musician

Specials
Phoenix Guard x20
Standard
Banner of Sorcery
Musician
Keeper of the Flame

Swordmasters of Hoeth x14
Bladelord

Rares
Great Eagles x2

Is not even optimized, and I think it'd punch very large holes in your army, as Teclis will completely dominate the phase, with +2d3 Power Dice and +d3 +1 Dispel Dice for the list.

And my Skaven:

Lord:
Grey Seer
Screaming Bell
Skalm
Dispel Scroll
Spells of Ruin

Heroes
Warlock Engineer
Level 2
Doom Rocket
Warp Energy Condenser

Battle Standard
Standard
Shield
Storm Banner

Core
Clan Rats x25
Standard
Champion
Musician
Warp Fire Thrower

Clan Rats x25
Standard
Champion
Musician
Warp Fire Thrower

Clan Rats x25
Standard
Champion
Musician
Poisoned Wind Mortar


Slaves x 35

Slaves x 35

Slaves x 35

Slaves x 35

Rare
Doom Wheel

Warp Lightning Cannon x2