I have been playing only skaven last year and a half so can only comment on the skaven bit and i usually can't be bothered to wade in but this needs to be said. For an uncompled list, this list is bleeding awful
Oh whooops, my mistake...espesially if it got hit with the WFT
Last edited by Tanglewood; 14-04-2012 at 22:53.
I play Skaven now since nearly 18 years and my win ratio is nearly 90% (but not with this list alone). As you my read before this is a scaled down list from my 2500 list I am playing now in a regional leage (http://www.rheinerftliga.haarrrgh.de...een/stefan.php).
Actual status quo: 3 games, 3 major wins (two against empire and one against vampires (7th edition books)) - so it can not be a very bad list ... :-)
But maybe we have some different experience ...
* The GS has it 4+ ward because of the death spells. With just unmodified ld 7 he will be dead very fast without some protection. He will never see combat, but against some things you have to take protection because he is to important to loose!
* A BSB is important to every army, more so in a Skaven army. In the 2500 list he has the stormbanner, but I had to loose some points. But I have some points left, could also give him the standard of discipline.
* The pistol is not there for a shoot! But I can skitterleap him behind enemy lines, loose his doomrocket and than can hunt a) a lone mage or b) a warmachine. He is not good at it, but against a normal human mage with only one attack or a normal warmachine crew he has 2 attacks and get the charge bonus, so he has a 50/50 chance to win a fight - not bad for 23 points. Against some types of warmachines (hellcannon / warmachines from dwarves etc.) or strong wizards (vampires, chaos sorcerer etc.) he has to stay far away of course.
* The level 2 plague priest is there that my grey seer has a better chance to get the plague spell AND he gets Cload of Corruption. Also skitterleap him behind the enemy line, cast Cload of corruption (at best against some heavy armored knights) and you have your points back in one round. After it charge him against a unit which has the flaming banner and he has a 2+ ward, 4 attacks and the plague censor! He is not there to fight inside a unit.
* Have you ever seen a horde of 100 slaves with spears supportet by deathfrenzy? That means 60 attacks!!! I have seen them, really fun! Much better if I get Wither or Bless with filth off.
* The 75 slaves has proven their worth more times than I can count. They can survive some artillery fire and still operate 5 wide or against T3 enemies also as a horde.
* The clan rat unit was bigger and pushing a bell in the 2500 list, but they are there to support the army with a banner, a WFT and a bunker. Even hitting the unit and causing 15 dead clanrats mean a rerollable 8 for a panic check. Was till now Ok for me. And if they shoot at this unit than they do not shoot against my HPA, slaves or anything else.
* Doomwheel is good every time. Any multiwound creature (dragon / steamtank / ogres of any kind / Hydras / chariots etc.) want stay away from him, and he can secure a flank against light cavalry / skirmisher etc.
So all in all, I am very happy with this list.
I agree with Blackpawl.
The sheer amount of bodies his list throws is hard to take out. Additionally, with the General being the single most important unit in a Skaven list, having some sort of save on him is necessary. I don't like that many slaves, but that's due to preference, not effectiveness, as I prefer more teams. For it's price, the Doomwheel is always amazing, as it either absorbs a ton of fire, or can rampage through a line. And even if ALL of the clanrats in the bunker die, the Seer is still Ld7, which isn't horrible, and will get the BSB reroll. And if his unit gets ground away, he can always abandon ship and join a new one.
And I have no idea what your experiences are, Tanglewood, but the Warpfire Thrower is simply amazing for the sheer amount of damage it can put out.
Tarian's Plog! (Updated 7/10/12)
Comments/Criticisms/Thoughts welcome indeed!
Death Korps, High Elves, random Dark Eldar, more to come (eventually)! Now includes Dark Angels!
So this is what it looks like when you throw hyperbole in a vacuum and throw the vacuum in a blender...this thread.
On another note, are people really using the 'they can hunt lone mages' argument still? When's the last time anyone saw a lone mage? It's been at least 2 editions for me anyway.
Last edited by GodlessM; 16-04-2012 at 15:37.
- Factored Death spell, hence the obsidian lodestone which will not only give you but the BSB a 4+ too. Good players will go for him first as he is generally a lot less protected. The lodestone will go on to protect your bunker from comet, flame cage, etc that gets thrown your way. Much better than a mere 4+ ward
- Yes, the BSB is a must. I pointed that there is so much more you can do with him than just naked. Standard of discipline, fire, foul pendant (to go with the lodestone in death heavy meta), etc
- Never encountered any 1/2 decent player that leaves his wizard out of unit like that. That's just begging to magic missile'd or Gutter Runnered so I can't see a return on the 8pt invested. Against warmachine, it's situational again. Only vs humans, goblins, other skaven and if they aren't near the general and they're on the flank and there is nothing in the enemy army that can deal with chaff (poor opponent) and your opponent actually allow the spell off. Too many conditions = happens too rarely to make your points back. A better way would be to skitterleap to the flank and 1" in front of a semi-important unit. That way you get perfect shot on the DR and redirected a unit by making it turn 90". Now the enemy will have a broken battleline at least and open up flank charges, etc
- 1/3 chance with lvl 2 to get CoC. 2/3 chance doing nothing. Realistically, you will get 1 spell off a turn so skitter + CoC will only go off against someone who doesn't know how to manage his dispel dice. So either skitterleap and give away 150+ for nothing or have 150 sit in block doing nothing.
- Sure deathfrenzy slaves are fun but spears still only add 10 w2 s3 attacks DF or no DF. Only 1/2 of the 10 attacks will hit so 50 points for 5 S3 hits. No thanks.
- If the enemy is shooting artillery at your 75 slaves block, you've won. No need to roll anymore dice. Shake hand and go drinking instead. 10 wide frontage opens the unit to multiple charge and they will die a lot faster than a unit of 50. It's not a theory hammer, I actually ran this through 2 tournaments and found instead it's better to have 3x50. Even if one is shot by artillery, you still have the other block to plug the hole in the battleline.
- Rerollable Ld 8 is 1/12 chance of failing with a reroll. If you fail, game over. The odd is too small for a risk that big. Not hard to force a retest until you fail and all the slave wall collapse.
- DW was good, then was crap and now could be good again
The whole strategy of that list is, tarpit everything using the seer Ld while throwing spells and hoping HPA, DW and WLC gets some points. Kill the 3 (or wait for them to kill themselves) and you can sit back and win. Or kill the GS or wait for the GS to blow himself up (since he is spamming spells constantly - w/o even an earthing rod). Or deploy a meat blender (anything that kills T3 by the bucket loads such as CW Khorne/Savage Orcs/etc). Or just shoot at the bunker at the back. Or just tarpit any of his slave unit back with an even cheaper unit then flank charge his other blocks. This list depends too much on getting spells off. Realistically he is going to get 5 spells off that game, 4 if opponent has a dispell scroll. There is certainly nothing that will help him get a chain of spells off. Unless he is 6-dicing everything with the general. And assuming he actually survives till turn 6.
Again you're claiming very high win rate with bells but bells almost auto-lose vs dual cannons. Even with storm banner, you will be dead by turn 3 and then all your slave walls will start fleeing and the game will be over. So not sure how your meta is unable to deal with this.
Tarian: Damage potential of WFT is undoubtable however it has 2 flaws. Move&fire and 1 wound. 24 arrow shots or 1 magic missile to kill a WFT (assuming 6's to hit). It will die long before it gets to fire against a good list.
As for my record, I do ok. In the last 3 tournaments at 2k, my record is 12-0-1 (2 of which are 30-40 players size so not just a local FLGS mini tournament). I lost because I never played vs congalining GG bunker with a travelator vampire using vanhels to charge across the board in turn 1 but i won't let that happen again (can't anyway)
Last edited by Tanglewood; 15-04-2012 at 03:52.
And maybe you have read some post from keldon33 before - he said that he will operate his wizards (two of them!!) alone behind his battle line ... it is not so far back in the past ... ;-)
Don't know your Meta, but for me it is Ok, have played the last 18 years with skaven in different locations and don't know against how many different opponents (too many to count them - or maybe I am to old that I have forgotten the most). If your Meta is different and have a different playstyle than it is also Ok for me, but I would not change anything in my list because of that reason (but I try out different skaven armies every game, but with this (2500) list I have to operate without a change all my league games till summer).
Where have you seen Archers / Crossbowmen the last time (maybe except of DE?). And there are different more threads in my army so I don't have to worry about a cannon shot against my WFT. Maybe a fireball or so is a real danger to them.
Yes, WFT has flaws: it is a skaven weapon - if I want a weapon without flaw I would take none skaven weapon at all ... ;-)
Last edited by BlackPawl; 15-04-2012 at 08:48.
If you haven't been seeing archers in your games, that just explained how competitive your meta is. A good tournament lists always include small units (of usually archers) to clear chaff/redirectors/guerillas.
And almost every lore has a signature magic missile that will kill a weapon team, not just fireball. Since you can only reliably dispell 1 spell per phase, spells with less priority such as magic missile you will have to let through, losing you a lot of points.
We can use meta as an excuse but some of the elements would be universally bad anywhere. If you wiz is not going into close combat, why 4+ ward instead of lodestone? Weak bunker is weak bunker and will be wipe out which ever country you play in. Hoping for combos of spells to go off without anything more than 2 extra pd per game shows meta or ingame naïveté and reek of theory hammer.
If you run into a combat heavy character, you are in trouble. A ghoul king can get 3+ to hit rerollable with 2s to wound your combat block with 7 attacks and red fury. Him and 50 zombies will beat your list if you cant get detachments in combat . You need a serious hammer to make use of your halbred anvils.
My 2k list
35 skeletons fc screaming banner
30 zombies standard
30 zombies standard
30 grave guard fc
10 black knights fc banner ofbbarrows
You cant really kill hemmler and krell is murder. The GG vs your halbreds and the zombies /skeletons vs 2 detachments.
you cant really deal with anvils yourself. Your anvil is also in fear of a single break test. You fail one and get run down, its good game. You need a standard bsb instead of those priests. Why two level 4s also ? Average spell costs 2 power dice so you won't be able to maximize a single wizards potential unless you roll 8+ dice. Downgrade one to a lvl 2.
Last edited by madival; 16-04-2012 at 16:53.
"Of course you fight fire with fire. You fight everything with fire!"
lesserofallevils.blogspot.com My warhammer gaming blog.
Trying to think about how the Red Guards would try to handle this one, a target rich environment for anti-magocrats.
Recent tournament army:
Comrade von Stahl’s Red Guards: A 2000 Point Bretonnian Army
Comrade Chairman Heinrich Von Stahl, the Comrade General (Bretonnian Lord with Virtue of Empathy, Enchanted Shield, The Ruby Goblet, Crown of Command, Tormentor Sword)
Comrade Commissar for Magical Affairs DuBois (Level 1 Damsel with dispel scroll, Lore of Beasts)
Comrade Junior Commissar for Magical Affairs Ozymandias. (Level 1 Damsel with Silver Mirror, Lore of Beasts)
Comrade Commissar for War Stephan Grunwald (Paladin Battle Standard Bearer with Barded Warhorse, War Banner, Virtue of Duty, Shield, Grail Vow. Rides with the Proletariat Leadership Commmittee)
Proletariat Leadership Committee and Advisers (8 Knights of the Realm with Full Command)
Quenelles Red Guard Brigade (40 Men at Arms with Full Command)
Quenelles Red Guard Commissariat (10 archers with braziers)
Enlightenment Brigade (Grail Reliquae with 13 Pilgrims)
Foreign Brigade (30 Men at Arms with Full Command, including a certain Comrade Heavyfoot)
Gisoreaux Red Guard Commissariat (10 archers with braziers)
The Foreign Brigade's Own Commissariat (10 archers with braziers)
Communications Commissariat (3 Pegasus Knights with Musician and Gallant)
Red Cavalry (5 mounted yeomen with musician, shields)
Trebuchet (‘No wall can withstand Revolutionary Thought or Trebuchets!’)
It is not optimal for taking your army on. My magic would be of limited effectiveness-but my magic defence would not be. The Communications Commissariat, overcome with joy at the relative lack of missile troops facing them, would gallop around trying to take on your two chariots. The Red Cavalry could do at least a good job of at least holding up one of them. My Trebuchets would take the Steam Tank first, then focus on crushing infantry or (if still alive) the wagons.
In the deployment phase, I would try to draw out your main block with my masses of chaff (namely archers and light cavalry. The former, coincidentally, would approve greatly of an opponent whose main fighting strength is concentrated in a unit of 45 T3 6+ save Halberdiers.) This would be left to advance towards a refused flank of mostly archers and perhaps a trebuchet due to the Reds out-deploying your army.
Glorious Comrade von Stahl's Quenelles Brigade would be tasked with holding off the main horde if it had to come down to a fight-this would be done by simply moving away from it, shooting it, then fighting it face to face. The Witch Hunter could prove an issue to Comrade von Stahl if it comes to a challenge, but there isn't really that much difference between their statlines. Without getting off buffs (which could be difficult in the face of my magic defence-the Silver Mirror and Dispel Scroll would be kept in check for just this moment-and Strength buffs would be ineffective when the Ruby Goblet means you can't wound on better than 3+ without using magic weapons) and killing Comrade von Stahl, it could prove difficult to break through massed stubborn infantry.
The PLC and perhaps the Foreign Brigade would focus on destroying one of your smaller infantry detachments, with the Enlightenment Brigade at least pinning down the other. The PLC and Foreign Brigade would then press on into the flank (if possible) of your main horde, which will hopefully be sufficient to break it.
Revolutionary victory, contrary to propaganda, would not be certain. The Trebuchets may not hit the Steam Tank in time. Your Capitalist-Imperialist Pig Dogs, if they manage to reach the Quenelles Brigade with enough ranks and buffs, and manage to kill Comrade von Stahl (not excessively difficult), could break through my lines, and I'm not certain about my ability to take both your wagons. The Red Guards approach to magic defence (absorbing it on sheer weight of numbers and armour, then killing the caster with conventional weapons) may not be effective when facing magical firepower of your magnitude. On the other hand, they do not operate based on the attacks of hyper powered characters, monsters or insane magical firepower, but massed ranks, cheap missile weapons, leadership distributed by Commissars and flank attacks. But it would be an interesting game, all the same. I would reiterate the suggestions based on less magic, more soldiers, and would enquire as to why there are so many Warrior Priests.
Now just doing Battle Reports.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191378 for the Red Guards
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196677 for my Imperial Guard.)
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