Surgical Strike Empire?

[Tayrod]

I was wondering if it is possible for the new Empire army to use MSU-type tactics, sort of like Wood Elves.

Maybe several small units of Archers (or other BS based shooting) harrasing the enemy, moving out of charge arcs, etc. Supported by small knight and pistoler units, whose task it is to run circles around the enemy, before engaging in overwhelming force on one point of the battlefield. I'd also like to use small artillery pieces scattered (in each end of the deployment zone) defended (from chaff) by units of militia. With fast mobile charachters on Griffons, and Pegasus roaming at will.

The basic premise would be to engage only a part of the enemy army, and run circles around the rest. Do-able?

[Von Wibble]

That's an interesting idea. Archer detachments can be 5 men so plenty of units potentially.

A 2000 point army could be

Wizard lord on griffon.
Captasus
Cannon
steam tank
Hellstorm
2 x pistoliers/outriders
2 x 30 militia/halberds/spears etc
1 unit of knights
4 x 5 man archer detachments

Invest spare points in extra missile troops.

Not sure if its tournament competitive, but certainly worth a go.

[Tayrod]

The problem as I see it, is mainly the cannons/war machines dying fast because they are static, while the rest of the army is running around. This could work however, as the main point of the warmachines is a) to kill other cannons, so my flyers wont be shot down, and b) to kill enemy fast stuff, so they cant interfere with my plans.

[GodlessM]

The problem is that while everything is capable of MSU tactics, it never works in 8th edition.

[Von Wibble]

The problem as I see it, is mainly the cannons/war machines dying fast because they are static, while the rest of the army is running around. This could work however, as the main point of the warmachines is a) to kill other cannons, so my flyers wont be shot down, and b) to kill enemy fast stuff, so they cant interfere with my plans.

Part of the reason I suggested a steam tank, though the cannon is still a risk on that. I think its a rare game in which my war machines survive anyway, usually somthing gets them. They get good shots in first though.

I wouldn't say MSU never works - isn't there a poster on warseer (Malorian?) who is being very successful with such tactics? Certainly not as easy to win with, but that makes it all the more satisfying!

[Asuryan's Spear]

would love to be proven wrong but i dont think MSU is viable because they just dont have units that hit hard enough to make the whole hit where it hurts thing work. Demigryphs might pack a punch but it just isnt really enough to run MSU. Empire are more about stoic blocks of infantry anvils and hamers smashing into the enemy. they dont really have any line breakers. most combats will be won in turn 2+3 of CC which keeps your force static an thus negates the ability of MSU to gang up as they get bogged down and naturally don't have much durability.

[EDMM]

Oh, you mean like how SmithF has been doing for years now?
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewto...p?f=12&t=94537

Yes. It works. Very well. It will work better with the new book.

[Asuryan's Spear]

like i said 'love to be proved wrong'

[Lord Solar Plexus]

(Fast) MSU can work if you're a tactical genius. A couple of knights and archers charging in all together however will only die together. Not to sound rude but where IS the overwhelming force you speak of? Warmachines are nothing special, and the rest on that list, preliminary as it may be, sounds like a weaker version of a standard list. Those State Troops or Militia units for example are no threat to anything bigger than a rat swarm - and they will run at the first opportunity. 20, 30 archers, small or big, also won't have any effect on a game in turns of kills, regardless of how often they might be shooting, and there's no synergy between the various elements with characters running around on their own.

[EDMM]

@Lord Solar Plexus,

Did you look at the link I posted?

If you did, before you posted that, please look again. Read the whole thread. It is worth it.

[Rhaivaen]

What exactly does the term "MSU" stand for?

[Sappysid101]

Multiple Small Units

- Sid

[Rhaivaen]

Thanks blahblahblah

[Wesser]

The problem is that while everything is capable of MSU tactics, it never works in 8th edition.

I beg to differ. Also I have yet to lose a game to Purple Sun/Dwellers etc...

[russellmoo]

If the point of the army is to isolate portions of the army and destroy them- then I think a somewhat MSU army could be feasible with the new book- however, you should focus on maneuverability- standard warmachines need to be small in number-

I think something like this might be different, fun and fit the playstyle you want to try-

Wizardlord on griffon
Mounted BSB
Throw in some mounted priests

5 reiksguard x 2 (they can congo line and with stubborn will hold anything up for a while)

2 units of pistoliers/out riders

2 unit of knights

2 Mortars
Stank

Demigryphs (if you can fit them in)
Rest of the points on missile troops

Something like this is going to be a very hard army for the enemy to come to grips with as, with the exception of the warmachines- which will end up in the far corners of the battlefield- the whole army moves and moves quickly-

[Lord Solar Plexus]

@Lord Solar Plexus,

Did you look at the link I posted?

I have already been aware of it for a long time. A great read indeed but honestly? There's always an exception to a rule, and in this case its name is SmithF. Its a bit like using detachments, some would almost always win because of them but the majority didn't try or couldn't make them work.

[laribold]

One of the problems with what's being suggested is spending a lot of points on missile troops.

Gunners/Xbows - Are too slow to be of use in an MSU style army due to 'move or fire'
Archers - I just can't see them doing enough damage to be worth their while.
Pistoliers and Outriders may be able to fulfill part of this role, but the question needs to be 'What is the role you want your missile troops to provide in this MSU army'

If I was to go down this route, I'd look at many, many small units of knights with some small missile troop units to see off chaff and a couple of essentially throw away artillery pieces. Almost an all-mounted army as manoueverability is key for an MSU army.

[EDMM]

I have already been aware of it for a long time. A great read indeed but honestly? There's always an exception to a rule, and in this case its name is SmithF. Its a bit like using detachments, some would almost always win because of them but the majority didn't try or couldn't make them work.

Inspired by SmithF, I am using an MSU Empire army that has proved devastating to a variety of opponents.

A couple characters (still nailing that part down, so it varies a bit - lately I've been rolling with a Light Coven, Engineer and BSB) Big block of spears, 8 Inner Circle Knights with GW, 8 Reiksguard Knights, 2 units of 10 handgunners, 2 units of Greatswords with 2 halberd detachments each, 2 cannons and a Engineerblaster.

That much Stubborn in an army should be illegal. It is incredibly effective, and incredibly versatile. Light magic backing up tons of Stubborn units after the Helblaster and S7 banishment put a few holes below the enemy waterline has won most of the games I've tried with it.

[Baluc]

Part of the problem with 8th ed MSU is 7th ed MSU. If you think if MSU and 7th ed MMU you'll be on a better track. It requires you to use your units in ways you maybe haven't before, some of them aren't 100% optimal either.

Your army is going to need to include a few multi-role units, luckily empire has a large collection of multi role units.

The Empire Wizard:

Magic is going to be your friend in MSU, it is a force multiplier like no other. I'm going to suggest light magic. As it gives you a little bit of everything. Net can be used to slow down those hugh S3 blocks you need to isolate. Forcing the enemy to slow his advance or come at your piecemeal. Timewarp, to make any unit a meat grinder or make any unit into a speed demon. 2x3d6 steam tank and 2 attack Knight orders I'm looking at you. Pha's and speed of light to make any unit a tarpit. Making Gut stars hit on 6's is jut too funny.

The War Alter, an 18" General, chariot, and AoE buffs

The Stank, move and shoot cannon, chariot, monster all rolled up in a 1+ save with unbreakable.

Just because you are playing MSU doesn't mean you can't have a horde yourself. 40 Halberdiers are going to give you a solid pivot point. You need to be able to form a line. Think of it like you would inception, you need your spinning top to know you're in reality. Without your core you are likely to be spread, and lose cohesion. Without cohesion you, not your opponent is the one who is going to get isolated and destroyed.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Inspired by SmithF, I am using an MSU Empire army that has proved devastating to a variety of opponents.

Yep, not a bad list at all. In fact, Noght on Warhammer-Empire did a very similar thing in one of his last games with the 7th ed. book (so no Reichsguard but Flaggellants and GS instead). I'm not saying it won't work but I strongly believe it is an approach reserved for advanced players.