Suggestions for a Dark Elf army that doesn't rely on shooting vs High Elves

[Kahadras]

Over the past couple of days it's been suggested to myself that the only way Dark Elves can hope to win vs High Elves is to focus on shooting and just gun down them down before they get anywhere near combat. I was just wondering what other people's opinion on the match up where. It was felt that due to ASF and the various special infantry units (Phoenix Guard, White Lions and Swordmasters) that High Elves could field it would be easier to fall back on a horde of Crossbowmen, Shades and Repeater Bolt Throwers. I was just wondering what other groups POV was on the matter.

Kahadras

[willowdark]

First of all, there is a big difference between having shooting and relying on it. Every DE army should include RxBs and RBTs. I could see not including Shades for fluff reasons, but there really aren't any good fluff reasons to not include the others. DEs are hyper military fascists, a military state, and every host would include those units as a matter of simple standardization.

So assuming 2 of each, you are already laying down an impressive volley against a vulnerable opponent, but you are a far cry from a gunline mowing them down like they're storming the beach at Normandy.

After that, I think a Horde of Witch Elves is a pretty impressive thing, even against tougher opponents, backed up by a Cauldron and I think it's got the advantage against any of those HE elites. Those HE special units are more expensive than your DE elites, so even striking first they are going to drop models a lot faster than you are. And with cheaper core infantry like Warriors and Corsairs... well...

I really don't see the argument. I'd think it's the other way around, that HE have to rely on gimmicks like Teclis and his book or multiple Chariots and Dragon Princes to stand up to their dark kin.

Edit: I am still very much in a 7th ed, MSU state of mind. By '2' I was referring to 2 units of 10 RxBs. If single units of 20 are more common in 8th, though, I still think my point stands.

[tmarichards]

You don't really need to gear your list in any particular direction, as most balanced DE lists can give HE all sorts of problems. However, as a general rule it's better to kill them at range due to their ASF and great weapons- although with the Cauldron ward save and enough bodies, Corsairs will still usually kill enough to win out against most HE infantry through sheer volume of attacks and by merit of having more bodies, but a unit of Swordmasters will pretty much neuter a Corsair unit even if it dies in the process of doing so.

On the other hand, 2x10 shades and a Fire level 2 mage (very common in all-comers competitive Dark Elf lists) make for a very handy platform against High Elves- shades are very difficult for them to deal with unless they bring a dedicated magic missile mage and will make very short work of Swordmasters, and Fireball does horrible things to White Lions as they don't get their Lion Cloak save against it.

[Mirbeau]

As a (largely former) High Elf player, I've got to say one of the armies that gave me the most trouble was D.E. I do realise this is subjective though.

I always felt Dark Elves had the tools to disrupt more effectively (despite a lack of eagles) than our lot - whilst most have figured counters - 'unkillable' pegasus riders can still be a pain to deal with - especially as few High Elf players bother with bolt throwers.

After that, shooting is, I can't deny, very useful in regards to swordmasters - and as Tom ^ pointed out, magic for White Lions. The High Elf player will try and screen the swordmasters, which if anything, can excarcerbate the effects of any disruption you cause with riders, pegasii etc.

The phoenix guard are more durable, but much less killy - they can be bodychecked by most solid units (especially if buffed by magic or a cauldron), followed by a good flanking charge. Once our elite infantry has been taken care of, I believe, point for point - the rest of your army is much more effective than our equivalents - even in combat.I guess what I'm saying is shooting has it's place (swordmasters!), but a relatively balanced list should have the tools for the job. Hope that helps

[sulla]

Dark magic is also very, very good vs elves of any colour dress. Even the worst spells, chillwind and doombolt have their place vs massed t3 shooters and eagles. Bladewind kills RBTs in one shot or hurt mages to within a miscast of their lives, WoP is handy for reducing their considerable damage output and the 2 big spells are just great vs anything in their list.

I also quite like knights for grinding HE core. In a combined arms force, I try to shoot/magic the elite hordes and engage the core in combat. Elite vs elite is usually fairly pyrrhic in elf vs elf fights but rather than give spears/archers something that even they can hurt, I try to put knights against them so their ASF amounts to not much and they lose their rerolls too. Even 6 knights can usually tarpit a big spear block quite well and 10 with hydra banner and cauldron will chew through them quickly.

HE are a good matchup for DE because you don't need shadow like you do vs many other armies in the game to make your core worthwhile.

[Pointy Headed Elven Paladin]

Over the past couple of days it's been suggested to myself that the only way Dark Elves can hope to win vs High Elves is to focus on shooting and just gun down them down before they get anywhere near combat. I was just wondering what other people's opinion on the match up where. It was felt that due to ASF and the various special infantry units (Phoenix Guard, White Lions and Swordmasters) that High Elves could field it would be easier to fall back on a horde of Crossbowmen, Shades and Repeater Bolt Throwers. I was just wondering what other groups POV was on the matter.

Kahadras

Magic, Hydras, & Cold One Chariots.

a Lvl. 4 Sorceress with a spear bunker & sacrificial dagger using Dark, Fire, Shadow (combined with repeater x-bows), and Death magic (to a lesser extant because Purple Sun is the only mass infantry troop killing spell the lore has but Soulblight is also useful as it can hit multiple enemy units within range of the spell) can make mincemeat of HE units.

The CoCs are one of the best chariots in the game, T5, heavily armored (3+ armor save), & does STR 5 1d6+1 impact hits (that goes before ASF) . A group of 3 can massacre a similar points units of HE elites (san Phoenix Guards). Backed up by Shadow Magic then go through HE units like a hot knife through butter.

1 Hydra would be hard enough to deal with but 2 would be even more difficult in addition to the other 2 in thrown into the mix (I'm sure most everyone here knows how b@d@$$ Hydras are so I won't need to go into detail about).

This person has interesting ideas on how to use all of them as a combined arms force:

http://nike40k.blogspot.com/search/label/Dark%20Elves

From his battle reports he seems to have very good success with them.

[Kahadras]

As a vice versa question how would people take on a shooting heavy Dark Elf army with High Elves? I was highly dubious about the prospect of a HE army being able to weather the amount of shooting that a Dark Elf army can put out. Crossbowmen, Dark Riders, Bolt throwers and Shades can put out a lot of strength 3 AP shots and can be backed up by a level 4 Sorceress with a Hydra or two to mop up any survivors.

Kahadras.

[Pointy Headed Elven Paladin]

As a vice versa question how would people take on a shooting heavy Dark Elf army with High Elves? I was highly dubious about the prospect of a HE army being able to weather the amount of shooting that a Dark Elf army can put out. Crossbowmen, Dark Riders, Bolt throwers and Shades can put out a lot of strength 3 AP shots and can be backed up by a level 4 Sorceress with a Hydra or two to mop up any survivors.

Kahadras.

I'd probably suggest to the HE player to use archers for core since longbows outrange x-bows, using 6 man Silver Helms units for flanking elements to clear out the dark riders, counter Shades with Shadow Warriors, use Great Eagle spam to deal with the RBTs, and use White Lions & Phoenix Guards as the elite choices since they are more surviable to range attacks.

Magic Lores for Archmages I would probably select Lore of Light or Lore of Life to counteract the shooting damage while my secondary mage with Lore of Shadow or High Magic for range de-buff with Miasma or to make my shooting more accurate with CoAA spell. The Guardian of the White Lions will probably carry the Ironcurse Icon for some additional protection against Warmachine attacks as well. If the player can spare the points for magic items I'd suggest carrying the sacred incense as well for addtional protection from shooting on the second lvl. mage.

[Brewmaster_D]

Only because you asked

I would humbly submit my own list for giving a typical dark elf list a good run for their money. Dark Elves really are one of the tougher matchups for High Elves no matter how you swing it though.

Archmage, Level 4, Forliath's Robes, Guardian Phoenix, Jewel of the Dusk (Lore of Light)
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff (Pha's, Banishment)
Mage, Ring of Corin, Gem of Courage (Lore of Light)
Mage, Anullian Crystal (Lore of Light)

35 x Spearmen, Full Command
14 x Archers, Musician
11 x Archers, Musician

14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Standard of Balance
14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Gleaming Pennant
17 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Dragonhorn
5 x Dragon Princes

2 x Great Eagles

D3 + 1 power dice per phase, with 4 attempts to channel can rival even a Dark Elf magic phase with the dagger. 2 x S7 banishments to deal with shades quickly and Shem's for Hydras poses a significant ranged threat to all aspects of a dark elf army, and the Ring of Corin lets me deal with the Pendant. Pha's protection drops the X-Bowmen down to 6's to hit. Speed of Light gets me my rerolls back vs. I6 Dark Elf elites. Net is also particularly useful as magic defense; most sorceresses sit in a S3 bunker, elminating their casting ability 50% of the time. All of these spells are on 3 power dice or less.

Swordmasters with the Standard of Balance would be hell for Witch Elves - poor things would lose both hatred and frenzy.

Regardless of how the game goes, though, a match versus Dark Elves is always downright mess. Getting the first turn really helps, but I'm going to be 6" back from the line versus dark elves, forcing them to come to me with my long range nukes.

[Don Zeko]

Only because you asked

I would humbly submit my own list for giving a typical dark elf list a good run for their money. Dark Elves really are one of the tougher matchups for High Elves no matter how you swing it though.

Archmage, Level 4, Forliath's Robes, Guardian Phoenix, Jewel of the Dusk (Lore of Light)
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff (Pha's, Banishment)
Mage, Ring of Corin, Gem of Courage (Lore of Light)
Mage, Anullian Crystal (Lore of Light)

35 x Spearmen, Full Command
14 x Archers, Musician
11 x Archers, Musician

14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Standard of Balance
14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Gleaming Pennant
17 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Dragonhorn
5 x Dragon Princes

2 x Great Eagles

D3 + 1 power dice per phase, with 4 attempts to channel can rival even a Dark Elf magic phase with the dagger. 2 x S7 banishments to deal with shades quickly and Shem's for Hydras poses a significant ranged threat to all aspects of a dark elf army, and the Ring of Corin lets me deal with the Pendant. Pha's protection drops the X-Bowmen down to 6's to hit. Speed of Light gets me my rerolls back vs. I6 Dark Elf elites. Net is also particularly useful as magic defense; most sorceresses sit in a S3 bunker, elminating their casting ability 50% of the time. All of these spells are on 3 power dice or less.

Swordmasters with the Standard of Balance would be hell for Witch Elves - poor things would lose both hatred and frenzy.

Regardless of how the game goes, though, a match versus Dark Elves is always downright mess. Getting the first turn really helps, but I'm going to be 6" back from the line versus dark elves, forcing them to come to me with my long range nukes.

I'm skeptical about Light for High Elves in an all-comers list, but this looks like something of a nightmare to play against with Dark Elves.

[Brewmaster_D]

I'm skeptical about Light for High Elves in an all-comers list, but this looks like something of a nightmare to play against with Dark Elves.

Most are

I'm going to avoid derailing the OP's thread, and instead direct you to an article I wrote about the lore of light & High Elves if you're interested:

The Lore of Light and You

Alternatively, if you want to see the list in action, there's plenty of battle reports in the thread linked in my sig. It performs admirably vs. gunlines, and a tough matchup so far has been Ogres (Light provides no protection vs. impact hits )

D

[sulla]

If you're playing HE vs DE, high magic is a pretty good choice for at least one mage. Unmaking for the dagger and then pendant takes out two of the most potent DE threats, flames is great for further weakening the DE magic phase by sucking up power dice to dispel it. The ward save is useful for outgrinding your opponent too. There aren't reallly any bad spells in the lore vs DE.

If it's no holds barred, Teclis is a great choice of course. Smart HE players should have little trouble protecting him from any threats.