Alternative Mortar Rules

[Tygre]

As I strongly dislike that Goblins hit harder than mortars now, and that an exploding rocket is stronger than an exploding mortar shell, I tried to come up with some alternative rules for the mortar.
My Idea is to make it use the small blast marker and make it Str 4 (6), armour piercing.
I am not sure how many points this would cost. Any suggestions.

[Sexiest_hero]

275 points.

[TsukeFox]

Gotta just accept it buddy- this is not 40k after all. Play 40k of you just want to shoot stuff

[Tygre]

Warhammer is not all about close combat and magic, a lot of it is but not all. I have been playing as Empire since just before 5th edition and it is not to much to ask, for an empire army to have ability to weaken enemy units before they are in close combat.
My suggestion of Str 4 with the Small template (for a potential house rule with my gamining circle) is not that big a change.
I have worked out that on a average it will actually do slightly worse against targets that aren't T4. But against T4 it does do slightly better.
I just wanted suggestions on how this should modify the points. Is it worth bringing it up to 120pts so it is the same as the cannon (the cannon and mortar in 4th Ed were both 100pts.
Telling me to just deal with it, and this in not 40k is just plain rude.

[Sexiest_hero]

275. It tears through anything less than a heavy armor/shield, hits around 20 models and I'm not sure if you want it to have d3/6 wounds on the high str. you can pretty much do more damage than most monsters in combat. wounding most troops on 3s and reducing armor saves by -2, means they have to scoop up units at a time. That costs as much as a beastman rare, so 275.

[Dreadlordpaul]

I would say 300 as with those rules its better than my hell cannon

[Petey]

Your rules have no basis in reality. It is appropriate that the mortar is s2, and there should be more stuff like it.

A man swinging an axe with one hand or a sword is s3. An arrow (which you should see irl) is only s3. Heavy shot fired in over packed black powder weapons reach s4, and I'm not sure just how justified that is. Shrapnel is dangerous, but much less serious than a spear thrust landing on you (especially from this equivalent time period). The mortar is fine.

[Jind_Singh]

I prefer the way the mortar is now - strength two, large blast - pretty epic - with strength 6 in the hole - that represents, to me, the way it should play.

IF ANYTHING...

ROCKET BATTERY

A unit must take a panic test if any kills result from the rocket battery - to represent just how unsettling the screeching of the rockets are - troops should should soil their breeches at such a barrage of shots!

Bump points to 130 points for the Rocket Battery - job done

[Damien 1427]

S3 (S6/D3 Wounds under the hole), Large Template, Armour Piercing. 150 points. What came before but a hell of a lot more expensive, and uses the Black Powder Misfire table. Same great taste, but spamming them isn't a terribly viable tactic any more. Not if you want something other than Mortars for your Special choices.

[Urgat]

I'd take two of those for 300 points w/o blinking, Damien. Large Template.
to the OP: I'm trading my rock lobbers for your S2 mortar. I could use the large template to flatten hordes of weak infantry. It's not even a rare choice, is it?

[Tygre]

21 models is about the max that a small template can hit of 20mm bases. (target must be at least 5x5 to get that many)
45 models is about the max that a large template can hit of 20mm bases. (target must be at least 7x7 to get that many) however
However combined with the increase in its armour save modifier it might be a bit much.
What about if I made it Str3 with the small template.

As a comparison maybe comparing it to the 8th ed Orc and Goblin Rock Lobber might be more appropriate (Str 3(9) D6 wounds, longer range, small template, goblin crew, 85pts)

Heres some Mathshammer for you. (current Mortar vs my proposed mortar)
Note not including the guy hit by the hole
Str 2 Large template against 20mm bases if max hit (44) vs T1 29.3 wounded, T2 22 wounded, T3 14.6 wounded, T4 7.3 wounded, T5 7.3 wounded
Str 2 Large template against 25mm bases if max hit (31) vs T1 20.6 wounded, T2 15.5 wounded, T3 10.3 wounded, T4 5.16 wounded, T5 5.16 wounded
Str 4 Small template against 20mm bases if max hit (20) vs T1 16.6 wounded, T2 16.6 wounded, T3 13.3 wounded, T4 10 wounded, T5 6.6 wounded
Str 4 Small template against 25mm bases if max hit (13) vs T1 10.83 wounded, T2 10.83 wounded, T3 8.6 wounded, T4 6.5 wounded, T5 4.3 wounded
I must also point out that unless your reqular opponent deploys units with 20mm bases 7 deep and at least 7 wide you will never reach the maximum for large templates

So how about bringing the mortar back to str 3 but reducing the template to small.
Str 3 Small template against 20mm bases if max hit (20) vs T1 16.6 wounded, T2 13.3 wounded, T3 10 wounded, T4 6.6 wounded, T5 3.3 wounded
Str 3 Small template against 25mm bases if max hit (13) vs T1 10.83 wounded, T2 8.6 wounded, T3 6.5 wounded, T4 4.3 wounded, T5 2.16 wounded
Should that drop it back down 75pts instead.

Or maybe Str 4 no armour piercing. 120pts?

[Damien 1427]

I'd take two of those for 300 points w/o blinking, Damien. Large Template.
to the OP: I'm trading my rock lobbers for your S2 mortar. I could use the large template to flatten hordes of weak infantry. It's not even a rare choice, is it?

I know, the reason being they have a use. They're amazing for clearing out hordes of cheap infantry. If the internet obsession didn't revolve around horde-spam, there wouldn't be the mad desire for the old Mortar, even at double the original price.

These days, at worst, I can bring along a Fire Wizard and a Shadow Wizard, hope I get the right spells, and use them to pick off particular units (Flaming Sword of Rhuin, Withering, or even a Death Wizard with Soulblight). Still can be nasty if you get lucky with The Withering, and positively wonderful if you buff the Mortar with Flaming Sword of Rhuin first.

[Tygre]

to the OP: I'm trading my rock lobbers for your S2 mortar. I could use the large template to flatten hordes of weak infantry. It's not even a rare choice, is it?

I see against Empire, Orcs would love a Mortar. Against Orcs, Empire would love a Rock Lobber (well at least I would; rolling a 6 to wound orcs is not fun for me)

Still can be nasty if you get lucky with The Withering, and positively wonderful if you buff the Mortar with Flaming Sword of Rhuin first.

I had no idea, until I checked it in the book, that flaming sword of ruin could be applied to shooting attacks. Will have to remember that.

[jtrowell]

Also, note that the spell isn't +1 to S, it's +1 to the damage *roll*, meaning that you will wound anything on 5+ at worst with the flaming sword of Rhuin on a mortar.

[IcedCrow]

What are you are suggesting is OP and if were official would always be taken and spammed by a lot of people for its potential efficiency would be too great to ignore.

I wouldn't be taken aback if the mortar moved to S3 from S2, but S4 pushes it to the point of it would always be taken and for that cost it better be in the mid 200s or so.

[TsukeFox]

I know, the reason being they have a use. They're amazing for clearing out hordes of cheap infantry. If the internet obsession didn't revolve around horde-spam, there wouldn't be the mad desire for the old Mortar, even at double the original price.

These days, at worst, I can bring along a Fire Wizard and a Shadow Wizard, hope I get the right spells, and use them to pick off particular units (Flaming Sword of Rhuin, Withering, or even a Death Wizard with Soulblight). Still can be nasty if you get lucky with The Withering, and positively wonderful if you buff the Mortar with Flaming Sword of Rhuin first.

Yup. With total lore access the mortar is more of a combo piece now. It would seem that GW is trying to balance things out- and the results are making total gun lines ( booring & starts to resemble 40k...) not a viable option.
8th is about combine arms. I am happier for it.

[hamsterwheel]

Yup. With total lore access the mortar is more of a combo piece now. It would seem that GW is trying to balance things out- and the results are making total gun lines ( booring & starts to resemble 40k...) not a viable option.
8th is about combine arms. I am happier for it.

I agree. GW is starting to price and adjust power levels for the total outlook of an army rather than individual pieces. Even if the mortar were given the standard 3(9) d6 wound stone thrower it would still cost more than a goblin rock lobber because empire has multiple ways of buffing the model to do more damage.

[T10]

Your rules have no basis in reality. It is appropriate that the mortar is s2, and there should be more stuff like it.

A man swinging an axe with one hand or a sword is s3. An arrow (which you should see irl) is only s3. Heavy shot fired in over packed black powder weapons reach s4, and I'm not sure just how justified that is. Shrapnel is dangerous, but much less serious than a spear thrust landing on you (especially from this equivalent time period). The mortar is fine.

Agreed. Also, a Goblin does not hit 20 enemies with a single attack.

-T10

[Haravikk]

There's nothing wrong with the Mortar; so it got nerfed, it was pretty obvious that it would be either nerfed or significantly boosted in cost as it became obscenely powerful due to 8th edition's improvements to stone throwers. It's to be expected that any army with stone thrower type weapons can expect them to be reduced in power, modified to an appropriate cost, or give less access to bonuses (I'm expecting this one for Dwarf Grudge Throwers).

A plan S3 Stone Thrower with small template is a strong weapon; a S2 flaming large template is still arguably more powerful, as it's a lot more likely to hit your intended target, and still perfectly able to wound it, especially since these weapons are best suited to massacring horde infantry, against whom 5's to Wound is perfectly adequate.

[Boreas_NL]

As I strongly dislike that Goblins hit harder than mortars now, and that an exploding rocket is stronger than an exploding mortar shell, I tried to come up with some alternative rules for the mortar.
My Idea is to make it use the small blast marker and make it Str 4 (6), armour piercing.
I am not sure how many points this would cost. Any suggestions.

That would seem a bit too strong... The Mortar was good the way it was. The increase in points is something I can understand (for a mere 75 points it was way too good) and I would gladly pay 100 or even 120 for the old Mortar, but the new version isn't worth that much (not even close)...

However, I do think the S2 Mortar warrants a new misfire table, don't you agree?

Replace the bit in the BRB with the following:

When the machine misfires, roll on the following table.
1- Catastophic malfuntion: The crew is now permanently deaf (and subject to Stupidity for the remainder of the game) but may fire as normal next turn...
2-4 The machine is now stained with soot from the explosion and the crew must spend this turn polishing their barrel. Next turn roll a D6: on a roll of a 1, the crew isn't satisfied and will spend another turn polishing (their barrel)...
5-6 Nothing happens, as was to be expected... You lose D3 crew (they can't cope with the disapointed and decide to head back home or to the nearest tavern) but may fire as normal next turn...

I fully expect this to appear in the next FAQ update...