Newly Founded Chapters

[Hadrun]

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere most likely. What is the process of forming a new Chapter? I'm under the impression that gene-seed is grown within space marines and kept by the mechanicus to be used when a new chapter is commissioned by the Inquisition or Imperium.

Can it be taken directly from existing troops in said chapter the gene-seed belongs to?

Who trains the new chapter or initiates??

Have there been instances of a company or squad from a successful chapter forming the nucleus for a newly commissioned founding(aside from the second founding)? I vaguely remember something about a chapter dissolving and folding into another.

[Lupe]

Not sure about any chapter being dissolved / disbanded. However, I did remember a paragraph I'd re-read just yesterday, that might be relevant to your questions.


From Imperial Armour - Volume 9 - The Badab War, Part 1 - Page 81

The Fire Angel's origins lie as one of a series of Chapters founded in the latter half of M40 by the order of the High Lords of Terra. [...] Founded as a Chapter from 'whole cloth', which is to say without a named predecessor Chapter. Instead, they were created from a gene-stock issue, their initial command and training structure composed of honoured warriors drawn from several Ultramarine successor Chapters. Their gene-seed is also on record as being sourced from the highly stable Ultramarine stock...

[Korras]

also, from the Badab War books, it is said that Lufgt Huron's chapter was used as the 'basis' for several new chapters. so, the exact process seems to differ, but the command staff is formed by those from already existing chapters, or probably those that are near whiped-out.

[TheBigBadWolf]

Not sure about any chapter being dissolved / disbanded. However, I did remember a paragraph I'd re-read just yesterday, that might be relevant to your questions.


From Imperial Armour - Volume 9 - The Badab War, Part 1 - Page 81

I was just away to post something along those lines.

The bulk of the first set of marines would probably come from another chapter. I would imagine it being a great honour to be selected to start a new chapter

[Fangschrecken]

I know I read exactly what was stated above somewhere or another but my search-fu fails me.

The distinction between a 'whole cloth' founding and another might be that in both cases the chapter is created from veterans from another chapter (which, I think, is always the case) but a 'whole cloth' founding might operate independantly from the start while the other kind would involve a training period where the veterans that are forming the new chapter basically lead their own scout (later other) companies in conjunction with the parent chapter, and at some point when the new chapter is at a certain strength in terms of marines and equipment there's a handing off ceremony where they might be presented with relics from the parent chapter and then told to go forth and smite in the name of the emperor (or protect the people if they're related to the Salamanders).

[jareddm3]

I think any post-second founding chapter would have been 'whole cloth'. The geneseed used in new chapters comes from the Mechanicus vaults, not from specific marines. The veterans of another chapter are just there to teach the new marines, not act as their geneseed reserves. As for a handing off ceremony, I can see this varying from lineage to lineage. An Ultramarine successor probably would have what you describe, but another chapter may have the veteran marines from the parent chapter simply serve until they die, their positions being taken by the most ready marines of the new chapter.

[Lupe]

Not really. I've been reading the Badab War books lately, and it seems that there are two cases for founding new chapters:

'Whole cloth' foundings seem to involve stored geneseed of a specific legion, but coming from multiple chapters of the same lineage, directly from the geneseed tithes sent to the Mechanicum, by order of the High Lords. The initial structure is drawn from multiple chapters as well, although the exact criteria for being chosen for this role are not clarified upon. This is the case of the Fire Lords.
There's another kind of founding, though. It seems the High Lords can also decide that a new chapter can be founded exclusively from an existing chapter, with their own particular lineage. In this case, the Tiger Claws chapter were created exclusively from Astral Claws. There were also additional examples in the same Badab War books, but I couldn't possibly give you the names or quotes until tomorrow, when I get back home and in front of the books.

[jareddm3]

But even in the case of the Tiger Claws, the geneseed wasn't taken straight from an Astral Claw's progenoid and implanted into a new recruit. The AM keeps every chapter's geneseed tithes seperate from one another. It was the Astral Claw's tithe that was used in founding the Tiger Claws. This still makes them part of whatever lineage the Astral Claws were, but since that's not known it becomes the Astral Claw's lineage. All I'm trying to say is the veterans who go to train the new chapter do not add to that chapter's geneseed tithe.

[Hadrun]

found the bit I was referring to.

When Dante asks the Blood Angels' successor chapters for men to bring the Blood Angels back to full strength, having suffered heavy casualties during Arkio´s heresy, Seth, chapter master of the Flesh Tearers, makes a counter to this demand: disband the Blood Angels and spread them amongst the successors. When Orloc (chapter master of the Blood Drinkers) protests that there is no way a First Founding Chapter can end like this, Seth retorts that, actually, it has happened before.

though this debunks most of it. It was a vague grasp at unknown legion info on lexicanum. :P

This statement is no definite indicator, as the two Unknown Legions were legions and not chapters. Additionally James Swallow is known for taking certain liberties with the way he depicts the Blood Angels. Technically there are no first founding chapters, as chapters did not come into existence before the second founding (which Swallow might be referring to as "first").

Makes sense that vets/elected members of the successor chapter would train and be heavily involved in the newly formed chapter.

[Hawkkf]

I was under the impression that when a chapter's gene seed is selected to found a new chapter, that chapter is requested to send marines to act as the founding chapter master and support staff. Usually this includes a Captain and veterans and possibly other archetypes such as chaplains and/or librarians. For most this is a great honor, but it can be used as a way to remove high ranking trouble makers at, least temporarily. After the chapter is brought to full strength for the first time, these marines are allowed to return to thier parent chapter or to remain with the new chapter. This can lead to extremely loyal successors such as we often see with those bearing the legion names. This can also lead to extremely divergent successors within the same geneseed lineage.

The only reference I have seen of a chapter splitting into two chapters after the breaking of the legions is when the Sons of Medusa split form the Iron Hands. This was a special case and was sanctioned by the high lords to avoid the possibility of losing a chapter bearing a legion name.

[Fangschrecken]

It occurs to me that the founding veterans wouldn't need to come from the smae genestock because, being veterans and thus having served for a long time, their progeniod glands would already have been harvested so theres no real risk of an overzealous apothecary taking one of thier geneseeds and generating a small lineage of marines in the chapter that would have the geneseed of a different legion. Would be sort of odd if 1/10 of your chapter cant spit acid, or has black/albino skin.

Also maybe after Calgar croaks and Sicarius gets promoted he'll send Agemman off to lead a new chapter so to prevent any sort of insubordination. I, however, look forward to the impending schism in the Ultramarines.

[Fangschrecken]

Double Post

[Grit]

thought they used serfs to create the organs,by putting proginand glands into very healty males till they mature,then when they do,they take them out to make the organs,but the guy dies as a result.

[shadowhawk2008]

Hmm. Some dubiousness here.

The Mechanicus creates new sets of progenoids by implanting vat-grown slaves. Then they harvest the gene-seed when it matures. The slaves however do not die. In The Gildar Rift,

A Silver Skull has his progenoids removed, but he is still pretty healthy and living. The chapter's suspicion however is that he is just going to age and die like a normal being now, derived of the gene-seed.

The way gene-seed extraction normally works:

Gene-seed matures in a proper Astartes over a period of ten years. At that point, one of his progenoids is removed and put in storage for use by neophytes and aspirants. The second set is left and is only retrieved at the moment of death. There are some vague recollections of mine where I've read of marines having their gene-seed harvested before they go on certain-death missions so that the chapter's due is not lost. Can't remember from where.

[Lupe]

A Silver Skull has his progenoids removed, but he is still pretty healthy and living. The chapter's suspicion however is that he is just going to age and die like a normal being now, derived of the gene-seed.

Yes, in Legion of the Damned (or, at least I hope I'm remembering the book right)

The Apothecary is ordered to remove everybody's progenoids and take the strike cruiser as far away as possible before the glorious Last Stand. That means it's a fairly common, if desperate practice

I'm pretty sure that one of the WD Articles mentioned something like that, as well. Not sure if the Apothecary entry or the one that lists all the implants.

[shadowhawk2008]

Ah yes, thanks for the assist there! :-)

[chriscrowing]

As a rule a NEW chapter founding is approved by the High Lords of Terra who have a store of the gene-seed of every chapter on Terra. They liase with the AdMech (who are the only ones who can work the machines) to synthesise a new strain of gene-seed from the stocks.

Ultramarines succesors are most popular because they have the most gene seed, the most stable gene seed and have generally proven to be quite reliable.

The other First Founding chapters are less well represented when succesors are being created, on account of their gene seed being unstable (Raven Guard, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) their numbers being denuded during the heresy, reducing the amount of seed available (everyone bar the Ultramarines) and/or there being some doubt as to their ommitment to the Imperium on account of non adherence to the Codex Astartes (Dark Angels, Space Wolves.)

The removal of progenoid organs from dead Marines allows an existing chapter to maintain it's stock of GS - a portion of this is sent to Terra on a regular basis to allow the high lords to test it for purity and maintain their own stocks.

[althathir]

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere most likely. What is the process of forming a new Chapter? I'm under the impression that gene-seed is grown within space marines and kept by the mechanicus to be used when a new chapter is commissioned by the Inquisition or Imperium.

Can it be taken directly from existing troops in said chapter the gene-seed belongs to?

Who trains the new chapter or initiates??

Have there been instances of a company or squad from a successful chapter forming the nucleus for a newly commissioned founding(aside from the second founding)? I vaguely remember something about a chapter dissolving and folding into another.

I could see a chapter sending off a company to start a successor, though I don't know how often the high lords of terra would provide an opportunity to do so.

I was just away to post something along those lines.

The bulk of the first set of marines would probably come from another chapter. I would imagine it being a great honour to be selected to start a new chapter

I think it would be a fairly mixed bag if they weren't a direct successor I don't think a chapter would send off someone that they could see being a captain or leading the chapter otherwise. So they would probably send some older sgts who aren't moving forward, and few guys that lost in chapter politics and didn't join the deathwatch or even a hero who messed up as a shot at redemption (maybe his geneseed get sent back to his chapter).

[Hawkkf]

I think the captain they send to be the acting chapter master of the successor would be very capable. Even if they disagree with some of his methods or just want him gone semi-permanently they wont send someone they see as inadequate. I would imagine sucessors are a matter of pride with many marine chapters. If they sent thier worst just to get rid of them then other chapters and the high lords may begin to think something is wrong with them as thier sucessors all fail. Now its completely possible said captian could get some of the worst, but probably the majority would be good marines.

[althathir]

Its not that they wouldn't be capable, im pretty sure most chapters have more guys qualified for being captains then they have spots available. Its just they aren't gonna send the top guys unless its direct successor and I think most of the whole cloth ones wouldn't be viewed that way.

edit: I also could see a captain having the opportunity to volunteer