What Lore for Tzeentch Daemon Army?

[Azazel]

Hi, I have a few ideas myself as what would be good for an all Tzeentch Daemon Army in terms of Magic Lore. But it seems although all the Lores are great (some more than others)!

What would you recomend to take in an all Tzeentch Daemon army with the following spell casters:

1 x Lord of Change
3 x Herald of Tzeentch

Do you think a mix of Beasts, Death, Shadow and Life? Or just go Life with the Lord of Change and two Heralds and give the third Death?

[MyNameDidntFit]

Well... if you care about fluff at all there's got to be a Lore of Tzeentch in there somewhere

[Cambion Daystar]

Yes, why not the lore of Tzeentch?

[Azazel]

Well... if you care about fluff at all there's got to be a Lore of Tzeentch in there somewhere

My units of Horrors have spells from the Lore of Tzeentch.

And whilst far from the worst Lore in the game, the Lores in the Rulebook are far better IMO.

[TheDungen]

they've been buffed more recently, but hey its better than the LoT from 6th edition. 5 magic missiles and one hex, what a lore that was. =P

[MyNameDidntFit]

My units of Horrors have spells from the Lore of Tzeentch.

And whilst far from the worst Lore in the game, the Lores in the Rulebook are far better IMO.

Fair call. And I suppose you daemons don't get Infernal Gateway like us mortals

[DaemonReign]

1 LoC and 3 HoTs in a MonoTzeentch Army you say..?

The Lord of Change should have the Lore of Tzeentch. He has an 'innate' Loremaster for that Lore and your army is gonna eat Power Dice like crazy so Boon of Tzeentch will be a really nice spell to have on at least one Caster. The Daemon Lore of Tzeentch doesn't have a real über-spell like the 8th Ed Lores, but this is compensated by the entire Lore still having 7th Ed Casting Values which means you get away with extremely low Casting Values for spells like Flickering Fire, Bolt of Change, or Glean Magic. So I'd definately let the LoC keep the Tzeentch Lore.

With Tzeentch Heralds it's Master of Sorcery all the way, on the other hand. A decent mix of Lores could be:
- Lore of Shadow (Pit of Shades, Occam's on Horrors once combat starts)
- Lore of Beasts (nice utility, also excellent for turning your Herald into a Chimera in combat)
- For the third HoT you might actually forego Master of Sorcery and take the Power Vortex Gift instead (you're gonna need it).

Oh, and it goes without saying that your Lord of Change should have the Power Vortex too, with what-ever other Gifts you want to give him for the other 70pts in his Allowance.

MonoTzeentch is tough atm in 8th Ed. It's good fun though. Last time I tried it was against Dark Elves and even though I lost I certainly wasn't tabled.

Cheers!

[Ratbeast]

Id go life on the greater and 1 herald, loremaster life pwns and then a death and shadow for kicks

[thesheriff]

To start off with, Lore of tzeentch is awsome. a Lv.4 horror unit with a total of +4 to cast can put out with roughly 6 dice;
2D6 S5 hits
2D6 SD6+4 hits
1D6+1 SD6+1 hits

Now, with a bit of mathhammer, that takes it to(pause for furious calculations)....11 S5 and 7 S7 hits (ish). Its horrific, and can literally decimate whole units combined with flamers or other firepower. its the kind of thing i woudl do if i ahd a bumper crop of dice, or needed to protect that unit from an imminent charge.

Back to the question, Well, to start, your are going to have more magic than you have dice. So, there will be an element of redundancy.

The lord of change, well he has two chacteristics to rememeber;
*Hes a flying monster (which means hell be in close and hes maneurvrable)
*Hes quite vunerable (not being able to hide himself ina unit, and only having a 5++ makes him pretty flimsy)

To that end, you either want a lore with lots of damage spells, or a lore that will keep him alive. Id probably go with teh former, as if you keep just protecting him, hell never make his poinst back. So, either;
*Lore of Tzeentch
*Lore of Death (this is what id pick)

Mostly id pick death as you can do loads of tricks with it. Fly + purple sun down the flank is lethal. All the charecter-sniping spells are super short range too, so being able to use them from the chicken is great. Tzeentch is great too, but your probably gonna have 1-2 unist with it anyway, so variety is the name of the game here.

Th second choice is easy for me. A herald with Shadow compliments a death-mae great, as combining -d3 Initive w/ purple sun is teh holy grail of magic beardiness. Shadow's a great allrounder too, as you can have pit of shades, and a bunch of reduce stats. Plus, Okkams on a big unit of horrors, reformed to 10x4 can makes them sick in combat. S8?? Yes please!

Thats leaves you with two. Life is a staple in any daemon army. T8 horrors, dwellers and regrowth are all fantastic choices. Its also a great lore for a BSB, as lifebloom can help you regain wounds from miscasts.

And finally, id go with Metal. Metal is circumstantial yes, but in this senario I think its good. Firstly, one of the tings about Metal is that a few of its spells (mainly the ones with direct damage) are specifically related to armoru saves. Thats not necassarily bad, but coming against an O+G army with a single metal caster does suck a bit. However, it has alot of spells that arnt like that, including one my favourite spells of all time, Final Transmutation of Molten Lead. 1/3 of a single wound unit (ie; not MI, MC or M) dies and all units within 12" are stubborn. A great trump card to play, and a great back-up lore to have.

Alternativly, instead of metal, sticking with tzeentch and grabbing a Power votex will be very useful.

Remember, your never going to cast every spell you have. Having specialised lores is good, as you can just pick and choose your favourites from your 15+ levels of magic.

Hope that helps!

thesheriff

[DaemonReign]

I think you give fairly good advice, TheSheriff. A few remarks though:

- Not to nitpick but Horrors (as all Core Daemons) have Ld7 so Occam's would give them S7 and only the Herald would be at S8. Not big deal.
- Over at the Daemon Forums the majority of (especially competative) players seem to question why LoLife is oftentime described as a staple for Daemons, just as you describe it. I admit it looks good 'on paper' but after having it used a couple of times I have to say that at least a few other Lores (from the BrB) seem to be generally better choices (I'd say LoLight, LoShadow, LoDeath, LoBeasts, and even LoMetal - depending of course on the composition of your army).

For the MonoTzeentch Army I would really not recomend Life. First of all it's a defence Lore and Horrors don't need a boost to Toughness (what they need is to KILL stuff). Secondly, except for FleshToStone which is a great spell, most of the Lore has inefficient Casting Values (really) unless you have Throne of Vines up and running (which a savy opponant will not allow). Dwellers is cool but really only against S3 (or less) opponants.

I suspect that it is the attribute of LoLife that makes particularly non-Daemon players conclude that it's a 'must have'. It's good, I'll admit that of course, but again it's defense and a MonoTzeentch list is really lacking too much in the offensive department to afford such worries.

The advice on the LoDeath LoC is good, and I've seen that in action too being quite successfull.

[ArtificerArmour]

Lore of beasts, all the way.

Seriously, everyone will be wanting to get you in combat. Giving yourself the best lore for fighting would really suprise your opponant. Wyssan's on your horrors, curse of arnaheir on and large cavalry beasties you dont want near you, amber spearon bloodthirsters and their ilk then buffing your herald to T7 or S7 with 5 attacks will seriously make people hate you.

Also, as the 4+ inv is "inbuilt" to your herald, you keep that when you turn him into kadons transformation. Not too shabby eh?

[thesheriff]

I think you give fairly good advice, TheSheriff. A few remarks though:

- Not to nitpick but Horrors (as all Core Daemons) have Ld7 so Occam's would give them S7 and only the Herald would be at S8. Not big deal.
- Over at the Daemon Forums the majority of (especially competative) players seem to question why LoLife is oftentime described as a staple for Daemons, just as you describe it. I admit it looks good 'on paper' but after having it used a couple of times I have to say that at least a few other Lores (from the BrB) seem to be generally better choices (I'd say LoLight, LoShadow, LoDeath, LoBeasts, and even LoMetal - depending of course on the composition of your army).

For the MonoTzeentch Army I would really not recomend Life. First of all it's a defence Lore and Horrors don't need a boost to Toughness (what they need is to KILL stuff). Secondly, except for FleshToStone which is a great spell, most of the Lore has inefficient Casting Values (really) unless you have Throne of Vines up and running (which a savy opponant will not allow). Dwellers is cool but really only against S3 (or less) opponants.

I suspect that it is the attribute of LoLife that makes particularly non-Daemon players conclude that it's a 'must have'. It's good, I'll admit that of course, but again it's defense and a MonoTzeentch list is really lacking too much in the offensive department to afford such worries.

The advice on the LoDeath LoC is good, and I've seen that in action too being quite successfull.

You not to bad for advice yourself.

Ld7, Derp! Forgot that. But still, the point remains the same, -4 to armour and wounding most stuff on 2's is still mean.

Now, onto lore of life. There are multiple reasosn its my first pick for any herald I take.

Firstly, if I take a BSB, Lore of life (as i have mentioned) makes for a fantastic lore to keep him alive. Any miscast wounds (if they get through thrones, or if its not cast) can be healed every time a spell is cast. This has saved the life of my BSB on more than one occasion.

Secondly, Lore of life has access to one of the best spells in the game, Dwellers. While you mention that it is ineffective against all but S3 armies, most armies ARE S3 armies;
WoC - Marauder hordes
Daemons - Most lesser daemons (with the exception of arguably the weakest lesser daemon, Plaguebearers).
O&G - Most have goblins in abundance
Brettonians - Mostly T3, and Dwellers also bypasses the high AS.
Ogres - Yes, they are T4, but with each failed test losing the ogre player 3 wounds, it more than makes up for it.
Beastmen - Majoritivly T4. But still not usless.
Empire - T3
High elves - T3
Dark elves - T3
Wood elves - Unless against all forest spirits, T3
Vampire counts - Quiet alot of T4, but again, skellies and zombies hardly make it redundant.
Dwarves - The exception!

Dwellers is more often applicable than not then. And having lore of life is probably worth it just for that spell. Plus, if you have lore of shadow, you ahve teh potential to reduce strength.

Thridly, Lore of life is always a staple for me due to Flesh to stone. While you mention that Horrors need to increase there destructive capabilities, I believe it is equally effective to just use attrition. A 40-man horror unit w/ the Changling and a LifeHerald BSB, deployed 5x8 will have a static combat res. of 5 (banner, BSB, 3 Ranks). The changling should do anything between draw and destroy in any challenge he fights. And the unit fighting them then has to contend w/ T5(possibly 7), 4++ sv. horrors in return?? Most unist shoudl break. Hell, i broke 18 Tzeentch chosen w/ +1 attack, halberds and the 3++ ward/stubborn with that combo (at only T5 aswell) in two rounds last wednesday. Increasing durability can increase combat fortunes just as much as increasing offensive levels. Its why in a tzeentch list, id run that unit, and one unit of 40 horrors w/ CMD and a shadow Herald w/ Okkams (10x4). One offensive unit, one deffensive.

So, i just dont see why you wouldnt take it!

[DaemonReign]

I agree the Attribute of Life is awesome. Especially for keeping those 2 wound Hero/Heralds alive.

Dwellers is nice too. And again with the nitpicking but it forces the opponant to take a Strength Test and you just gave us a long list of various Toughness Values for different armies.
Again, you're right in principle that it's still a usefull spell against most armies in one way or another (even Ogres have Gnoblars).
It's also true that if you can debuff a unit's Strength then Dwellers really kicks into a whole new gear.

Flesh To Stone, as I said before, is probably the best Augment (by itself) in the game at the moment.

In the choice, however, between getting Strength 7 (Occam's) and T5+ (Flesh To Stone) or turning your puny Locus-Herald into a 4++ Black Mountain Chimera (LoBeasts) I have to say though that I'm not a big believer in winning games by attrition. Especially not if you're playing a MonoTzeentch force. Sure enough - if you have a Horde of Bloodletters ready to slam into the flank of the enemy, and all you need is for your Horrors to soak as much damage as possible, then of course T5 will come in handy. But I don't see it with a MonoTzeentch list.

And as an aside I definately think Horrors are the weakest Core Daemons in 8th Edition. Closely followed by Daemonettes. PB's are assumed to suck because they can't stack their Ward/Regen anymore, but really I only concider Bloodletters to be better as far as all-round troops goes.

Anyway, I'm not really challanging the fact that LoLife has its definate up-sides. As far as I remember I also included it when I played MonoTzeentch last (so there you go!) but I'm not as sold on it as you proclaim to be. That's all.

[GodlessM]

If you are talking mono-Tzeentch then as tempting and awesome as Life is, you need Shadow, as without Mindrazor you have little to no combat presense at all.

[thesheriff]

Again sorry about the Toughness compared to Strength. I did mean S. But the strength is transferable almost seamlessly. Except Dwarves are majoritivly S3, so it's better!

I personally think that Transformation of Khadon is a very sub-par spell. While for 145pts it's not a total points/damage inadequacy, I believe it's flawed. With the variety of warmachines floating around, combined with the fact that everything wounds on max 6's, and that steadfast makes monsters breaking on the charge a very unlikely senario, what is the point??You could make yourself a monster true, but for the same dice needed to reliably cast it (presumably 6) you could
*Fire off 3 magic missiles from a horror unit
*Cast Dwellers
*Cast Final Travamutation
*Cast Pit of shades AND Miasma (on iniative)
*Cast Okkams

I think everything in that list will do more damage. With your dice being so scarce compared to how many spells you have in a tzeentch list, finding 6 dice to turn yourself into a dragon is just not a constructive way to use them IMO.

Also, you say you don't believe in attrition. That's reasonable. However, you do aknowlege that T5 is useful as a safety measure. But imagine a unit with Okkams and Flesh to Stone. A S7 T7 4++ ward unbreakable unit is disgusting. Unless you play a gunline and you literally blow your opponent off the table, combat is an inevitability. Having a caster who can keep units that are 500+ pts in the game is a safe bet, and for 145pts, it is a good buy too.

Now, you say horrors are the worst core choice. Not to be rude, but I had to look away from the screen and look back to see if I was imagining (). I defy anyone to find for 500pts a lv4 wizard who is as durable as horrors. A 40 man unit is like having a 40 wound wizard in many respects. With the icon of sorcery, and an extremely low cast magic missile lore, they are (hate to overuse the term ) a staple in my daemon army. One of the key issues with competative daemons is that while they have plenty of access to multi spel casters, until you hit 2.5k+ (Kairos), Lv4 lords are not cost effective. In 8th, not taking a lv4 often gives your opponent a magic advantage with the bonus level to cast. Taking a horror unit enables you to close that gap. And, as I've says before, they are incredibly durable with minimal buffs and can take one of the best special chatecter champions in the game.

My issue with Plaguebearers also isn't the fact that they can't stack the ward/regen (well partly). It's that they cant deal enough damage. 1S4 attack each is pretty good, but not when compared to a daemonette or bloodletter. And on a personal note, I'm surprised that you of all people would see then as decent, or even usable, as you yourself say you are not a huge believer of "winning by attrition". Anouther key issue with them for me is that a Horrir unit will usually be as durable. Even with them being identical sizes and both having heralds, what the Plaguebearers have on the horrors is +1 T. Where as horrors have a 4++ (instead if regen, which can be negated by the flaming attacks found in the majority of armies) and they are also a Lv4 wizard! There is just no contest for me.

I'm not arguing that Life is the best thing to take in a mono-tzeentch list. But I would rank its uses among the top 3 book lores in this senario. If there were only two mages in the army that could take book lores, I would definatly remove life. But, like you I believe it's uses are still warranted in this kind of daemon army. I think we are of closer opinions than is perceived!

[Morkmillian]

i played a 2k mono tzeentch army, i wasnt sure how it would go and it was my first game with daemons.
i had loC and 2 heralds.
i went for tzeentch, beasts and life.
and my army revolved around 2 blocks of 30 horrors and 2 units of 6 flamers.

i basicly wiped the floor - granted i got lucky with teh scenery and i deployed my horrors with big bit of scenery protecting their inside flanks.
and flamers their outside flanks.
having lore of life saved my LoC dieing as he can take wounds fairly easily but the best part was how bad ass lore of beasts made the horrors. and life to bring back the dead ones.


all in all great fun. the main problem is your turn really relies on the magic phase, so when you roll crap it can really hinder you if you need to get a few spells of.
i know the horrors can cast spells but generally you wont have the spare dice.
the horrors obviously arnt great in combat as they are. so you spend all your dice eitehr lowering the enemys stats or raising your own.

but life and beasts are both great for this army.
i nealry went with shadow but i knew i couldnt avoid combat all game, and the horrors just wouldnt have stood for very long without buffing from spells, no matter how much damage i did.

[DaemonReign]

I think we are of closer opinions than is perceived!

Yeah it's just minute details.. And I imagine personal experiences that make up for slightly different perspectives.

Take Horrors for example, I know they're a 40 wound Level 4 Wizard taken from the Core Allowance of the Army (!) - that's very true. My feeling that they're 'the worst' basically comes from my Horrors having been a streak of utter fails ever since 8th Ed hit the shelves. Your passionate speech on behalf of their merits actually prompts me to want to give them a few more chances, because I had really started to view them as grossly overcosted "Militia with Wardsave" that does nothing but 'steal' dice from your more versatile Casters.

In turn my Plaguebearers must be performing better than average. And the Standard of Seeping Decay of course 'changes' them to some degree. That Icon and the HoN with BreatheWeapon lets them perform reliably - which I guess is my point - without having to rely too much on the fleeting luck of the Magic Phase.

S7 T7 4++ Horrors would rip naturally. However requiring the casting of two augments both of which your opponant will try to dispel. I mean, while we're at it why not throw in Birona's Timewarp as well for +1 attack and ASF.

I agree, by the way, that Transformation of Kadon leaves you wanting for more.. Remains in Play spells have sort of taken the back seat in this Edition. I don't see the problem so much as being about "not getting Look out Sir" or "not negating Steadfast" - but basically it's just the small issue of that Big Monster getting "Dispelled" in the opponants Magic Phase even if you Miscasted in order to get it. The one time I did turn a HoT into a Black Mountain Chimera the unit that just charged my Horrors was completely obliterated though, so the effect for that single Combat Phase is nothing to scoff at.

Interesting, this. I shall try to give my poor Horrors a few more chances.

[Azazel]

Thanks all, some great points here I hadn't thought of. I'm still pretty new to 8th edition and a lot of tips here I think will help.

I have thought about whats been said and I think the best approach for a 2500 pt Tzeentch Daemon army would be:

1 x Lord of Change (Lore of Shadow)
1 x Tzeentch Herald (Lore of Death)
1 x Tzeentch Herald (Lore of Life)

Then I have Purple Sun (on a Herald with Winged Horror), Mindrazor, the healing one from Life and the Miasma from Shadow (to help with Purple Sun). I don't hope to cast all these in the same turn, but at least it covers a lot of bases when it comes to tactical flexibility.

Incase you're interested or it would make a difference heres a quick run down of my army:

Lord of Change
Herald BSB
Herald

25 Horrors (Full Command) (Changeling)
25 Horrors (Full Command)
25 Horrors (Full Command)

6 Flamers
6 Flamers

[DaemonReign]

I still think you're gonna run out of Power Dice so badly with Army it ain't even funny.
I would still suggest letting the LoC keep his (full) Tzeentch Lore, but at the very least make sure he's got a Power Vortex. That would be a bare minimum.
One of the HoTs having Lore of Shadow is a good idea - you will need Mindrazor in order to get anywhere in CC with those Horrors.

My suggested list would be something like this:

Lord of Change, General, Power Vortex, Magic Levels, maybe Dark Magister or whatever you like but not Master of Sorcery.
Herald, Wings, BSB, Shadow Lore
Herald, Wings, (Lore of Death, Life, or Beasts)

35 Horrors, Full Command, (Changeling)
- Winged HoT starts here.
10 Horrors, Full Command
- BSB starts here, it's a bunker, hiding behind the bigger blocks.
30 Horrors, Full Command

4 Flamers
4 Flamers
4 Flamers

* Also, some Furies wouldn't hurt your cause.. But that depends on how Strict you want to be with the MonoGod thing.
The reason for the resize of the Horror-blocks is basically because you want them to get access to Bolt of Change (and keep that even after taking damages, for a while at least) because that is the one Spell you might really want to cast with them on occassion. Mostly they won't get to do anything though - having ONE Loremaster is enough to eat all the Power Dice, having 3 of them is sadly not something 8th Ed is 'built for' haha

Well, go ahead and try it out either way you like. Best of luck!

[Bodysnatcher]

My Mono Tzeentch army includes:

Lord of Change - Lore of Tzeentch, Vortex
Herald BSB - Lore of Life
Herald - Lore of Shadow
Herald - Lore of Tzeentch, Vortex

And then the dirty great horror unit.

Lore of life and lore of shadow are both fluffy (shadow being all about deceit, and as for life - remember what Aekold Helbrass used to do) and are synergystically extremely potent. Enfeebling a unit and then dwellersing it is just plain nasty. T7 horrors are practically impossible to shift. Mindrazor + changeling is disgusting (although it's rare that I ever get to cast it). And regrowth to bring the changeling back is just plain ol' hilarious.