2k Empire Balanced Lactose Intolerant List

[Valaraukar]

Fantasy Army: Empire

This is my attempt at a fairly all-round list low on the normal combos etc. designed to try and make best use of some of the actual state troops whilst still providing them the support they need. Constructive criticism to tweak the list welcome, not interested in hearing why I should min mx various unit types and take a Lvl4 etc. though please.

General - Arch Lector with heavy armour and enchanted shield 109

Battle Standard Bearer - Captain with full plate armour and shield 93

Warrior Priest with heavy armour, shield and the dragon helm 74

Battle Wizard (Beasts) Level 2 100

Characters Total 376

40 halberdiers with full command group 270
- Detachment 20 Crossbowmen 180

30 Swordsmen with standard and musician 230
- Detachment 15 Militia 90

Core Total 770

Great Cannon 120

5 Outriders with musician 115

5 Outriders with musician 115

4 Demigryph Knights with musician and standard bearer 252

Special Total 602

Celestial Hurricanum 130

Hellblaster Volley Gun 120

Rare Total 250

Total 1998

Vague plan:

State troops in the centre, Arch Lector general and captain bsb in the halberdiers set up as horde at middle corner giving LD9 re-rollable bubble over the swordsmen and on 3d6 pick lowest for themselves. Swordsmen deployed 5 wide 6 deep for steadfast with the other Witch hunter on their inside corner, Militia set back from and to the outside side of swordsmen. Hurricanum behind and inbetween the state troop units for the +1 to hit bubble and both with hatred conferred from warrior priests including the militia detachment plus any prayers they get off. Beasts mage in the crossbowmen set behind and to the outside side of the halberdiers trying to cast wyssans wildform on whichever unit needs it most. Demigryphs and outriders holding one flank, hellblaster covering the other, cannon placed behind lines to take advantage of the best lines of sight over the battlefield depending on terrain setup.

[jonnywright104]

Id maybe split the outriders into 2 units of 5 and give them musicians so you can feign flight....using them as bait whilst shooting the fluff out of stuff

[Valaraukar]

Id maybe split the outriders into 2 units of 5 and give them musicians so you can feign flight....using them as bait whilst shooting the fluff out of stuff

Yes you might well be right, I was just thinking of the number I wanted and panic, but this would make them more resistant to combat units or at least minimise the risk. Will have to playtest both, any thoughts on the main elements?

[z4carlo]

I dont have the new book yet but im assuming the Arch Lector is still Ld9, why would you chose a WP and banner of discipline over just a AL who has the +1 Ld and has +1 W?

[Valaraukar]

It's a good question, I guess because the list grew organically and I started with the core as this for me defines the character of the army then added support units as required and characters were last but I knew I wanted two priests (/lectors) and a battle standard then when I realised I wouldn't have the points for a separate lord choice I added the standard of discipline for Ld9 it is still 22 points cheaper (lectors are 35 more than priests and armour is 2 more than for priests) but the extra wound might well prove worth that and I could drop 3 swordsmen easily enough as those were used to fill up the final points I had left. Infact I'll edit the list now to reflect that cheers.

I dont have the new book yet but im assuming the Arch Lector is still Ld9, why would you chose a WP and banner of discipline over just a AL who has the +1 Ld and has +1 W?

I have now also split the outriders and got rid of the swordsmens champion who contributes little for the extra musician. So what do people think of the list any glaring problems or things it will have difficulty with or does it seem fairly solid?

[Valaraukar]

What was that bump?

[LaughinGremlin]

Can characters go into detachments? (i.e. Mage with +bows) Neato.

[Valaraukar]

Yup I've not found any rule to the contrary they just can't take command groups.

Can characters go into detachments? (i.e. Mage with +bows) Neato.

So please anyone got any thoughts on the effectiveness of this list, weaknesses, tweaks?

[Baron_Nikos_]

I really think you will benefit from a stubborn crown on your general, and maybe swap the enchanted shield and dragon helm to make your generals save higher. Making the unit stay longer when you start to loose ranks. And the detachment of bows will now be stubborn too, useful to hold a unit in combat now as well as shooting.

I also think your bsb is quite vulnerable.

Otherwise I like it a lot

Nikos

[LaughinGremlin]

I'd be very tempted to consider the removal of some of the outriders to put a naked engineer next to the Volleygun. It could equate to extra kills (and scariness) during the shooting phase on aggregate. I understand that outriders may be more your style, and the way that you use either group of outriders may be essential with how you play with this list. I think that your list can work well as it is, so any changes by others will often reflect their various tastes. I personally tend to put magical protection on my BSB as well. You'd have to give up a few state troops or something to do that though.

[jonnywright104]

Why are you taking 4 Demigryphs? for one it means buying two boxes!! Secondly, their bases are wide enough that unless you are always against a horde then you will get no benefit from a fourth. Also, might make them sneak under the radar a little more?

If you dropped a demigryph, and the warrior priest (and maybe a little more), you could squeeze a war altar in!

[Valaraukar]

Actually they're 50mm wide so against any 5 wide 20mm base or bigger unit they will all get in with the outside two being corner to corner on each side, also I'm guessing they'll be a target as they're new, shiny and quite dangerous so even if I lose one this way I still have three. Also I already have 2 boxes for when I want to field 2 units of 3 so not a problem there!

As to the war altar, I don't think it's worth it especially in smaller games, it makes a big juicy target and no longer confers the ward to the lector on top, both get hit by any template in 8th and it will at most effect 2 units which I already have covered with my priest and lector who can't be singled out.

I think Baron Nikos has a point about the protection though I have left myself a bit short as I knew what characters I wanted but didn't have the points to kit them all out, any suggestions on load outs for these guys to make the best of them? I'm thinking leave the priest fairly basic (what do people think about a mounted one for additional armour save vs the risk of no look out sir?), up the protection on the lector and battle standard with something like enchanted shield and talisman of preservation for the bsb and perhaps white cloak of ulric for the lector? I'm considering dropping the 2nd level on the wizard to make points for this although it effects both my casting and dispelling bonuses and might struggle vs a level 4, downsizing and merging the outriders, possibly downsizing the detachments. My concern is it feels like I'll be a bit light on shooting then and bodies also if I wanted to fit the engineer in as well i'm not sure what I'd cut.

Any thoughts on how to get some / all of this in and what I could afford to cut?

Why are you taking 4 Demigryphs? for one it means buying two boxes!! Secondly, their bases are wide enough that unless you are always against a horde then you will get no benefit from a fourth. Also, might make them sneak under the radar a little more?

If you dropped a demigryph, and the warrior priest (and maybe a little more), you could squeeze a war altar in!

[LaughinGremlin]

A mount for your priest is more points and makes him stick-out. The benefits aren't worth the cost, especially when you can get armor in either the main rule book or Empire book that either gets him a 1+ armor save or a combination of AS AND a ward save. I think that the 2+ save against fire attacks that the dragon helm provides is too situational. In most cases, fire will be the least of your worries. I'd rather have a Charmed Shield (first hit is ignored on a 2+) for 5 points unless I knew I was going up against a Chaos Dwarf Army or something. Talismans: The 25 pt. Dawnstone which allows re-rolled failed armor saves is great on top of great full plate, shield, and a steed, if you still choose to get one. Mundane armor of 1+ AS plus the dawnstone. reroll! Beastmen have a couple different items that ignore armor saves, and that blows, so anticipating that sort of build, I got magic armor AND the talisman that offered a 4+ ward save on two different priests in my army, and the predictable beastman player just scratched his head. Remember that your champion can accept challenges from the uber bad guys (and get auto-killed) and your BSB or priest will have a high enough AS to repel the lesser attacks typically. At times, though, Some people take multiple fighter characters (like my beastman buddy) and you can't always avoid them, and they won't need to challenge if they're already in base contact.

Have you thought about the possibility of a Heavens mage to assist your hellblaster? You'd have to sac your amber mage guy though to make room, which is a VERY tough thing to do. It's just a thought for a future list. Reroll the hellblaster with e engineer and then reroll to hit, wound, AND reroll AS rolls of 1 , all with that one spell. Instead of saccing the amber mage, maybe you can piddle with a mage lord instead of your original "general" approach; afterall, you captain already has "hold the line too" (with less LD, yes....) 'Just thought I'd throw it out there. You'd start your outriders near to this battery as well to benefit from the harmonic convergence bubble.

[jonnywright104]

A mount for your priest is more points and makes him stick-out. The benefits aren't worth the cost, especially when you can get armor in either the main rule book or Empire book that either gets him a 1+ armor save or a combination of AS AND a ward save. I think that the 2+ save against fire attacks that the dragon helm provides is too situational. In most cases, fire will be the least of your worries. I'd rather have a Charmed Shield (first hit is ignored on a 2+) for 5 points unless I knew I was going up against a Chaos Dwarf Army or something. Talismans: The 25 pt. Dawnstone which allows re-rolled failed armor saves is great on top of great full plate, shield, and a steed, if you still choose to get one. Mundane armor of 1+ AS plus the dawnstone. reroll! Beastmen have a couple different items that ignore armor saves, and that blows, so anticipating that sort of build, I got magic armor AND the talisman that offered a 4+ ward save on two different priests in my army, and the predictable beastman player just scratched his head. Remember that your champion can accept challenges from the uber bad guys (and get auto-killed) and your BSB or priest will have a high enough AS to repel the lesser attacks typically. At times, though, Some people take multiple fighter characters (like my beastman buddy) and you can't always avoid them, and they won't need to challenge if they're already in base contact.

Have you thought about the possibility of a Heavens mage to assist your hellblaster? You'd have to sac your amber mage guy though to make room, which is a VERY tough thing to do. It's just a thought for a future list. Reroll the hellblaster with e engineer and then reroll to hit, wound, AND reroll AS rolls of 1 , all with that one spell. Instead of saccing the amber mage, maybe you can piddle with a mage lord instead of your original "general" approach; afterall, you captain already has "hold the line too" (with less LD, yes....) 'Just thought I'd throw it out there. You'd start your outriders near to this battery as well to benefit from the harmonic convergence bubble.

I like your style

[LaughinGremlin]

Thanks. I honestly looked at this thread in the first place because I have grown to be lactose intolerant. No joke.
another random thought: Instead of a volley gun, take a naked engineer (maybe mounted for extra mobility) with pigeon bombs. It can free up a few points for an extra (or better) magic item on one of your current characters. On another thread right now, labeled pigeon bombs (in the General Discussion room, I believe,) we are singing the praises of them. It's a smaller template than the mortar, but the engineer sit in a middle of a forest because he doesn't need line of sight. The bomb is a pretty strong thing and does more damage than a mortar, and according to others, it has about the same chance of hitting as a mortar while being much cheaper. You can stick the engineer next to your cannon in case you'd rather make that piece more accurate at a critical moment too. Launch angry birds in the other turns.

[Valaraukar]

Ok I've taken comments into consideration and tweaked the list a bit, what do people think of the following:

Arch Lector with heavy armour, shield and the white cloak of Ulric (Will give me an excuse to use my Ar Ulric Mini too!) 158

Captain battle standard bearer with enchanted shield, full plate armour and talisman of preservation 141

Warrior Priest with heavy armour and shield 69

Battle Wizard (Beasts) 65

Master Engineer 65

40 Halberdiers with Full Command Group 270
- Detachment 10 Crossbowmen 90
- Detachment 5 Archers 35

30 Swordsmen with Full Command Group 240
- Detachment 14 Militia 84
- Detachment 5 Archers 35

6 Outriders with Musician 136

4 Demigryph Knights with Musician 242

Great Cannon 120

Helblaster Volley Gun 120

Celestial Hurricanum 130

Total 2000

Upped the protection on the characters, dropped some outriders, and downsized the crossbowmen to make room for this and added an engineer to sit with the helblaster and cannon. I also added two 5 man archer detachments to protect artillery from scouts like chameleon skinks and act as redirectors etc.

[LaughinGremlin]

In short, I'd use it, 'cause I like it. Still having a unit of outriders gives you variety. I guess there are no limits to how many times priests can cast spells, so you won't have to worry too much about under-utilizing you magic phase. I don't think that you need to worry about "sticking" your melee troops into battle sooner than later, because it isn't necessarily a bad thing to always cast awesome spells every single magic phase. Your amber mage will focus on the signature buff spell too, and he'll be sort of useless until he's required. Again, don't think that you should "stick" your melee troops into battle sooner ONLY because you want to use your amber mage sooner than later. You KNOW he'll have his chance to make his own head explode soon enough. You have enough "shooty" to make most armies come to you. Never ever accept a challenge with the lowly warrior priest. Let the champion get smooshed instead, and your regiment will benefit from the priest's survival.

Arguably, there is no perfect list, and you'd be hard-pressed to make this one much better. In theory, this is already one of the best lists you can make when you consider the style that YOU desire to play, using the models you think are most fun to use, etc. Congratulations on making it an EVEN 2000 points too. That's bonus. I've enjoyed seeing everything up to this point. Thanks.