Magic Phase Strategy

[Brewmaster_D]

Be sure to post it on here once you have it developed! I'd love to take a look at it. Dare I ask for a battle report or two as well?

D

[Gloryseeker]

Magic Phase Strategy


2. Write down your opponent's spells

Almost nobody I know or have played against does this! When your opponent rolls their spells, write them down or pull out the relevant cards. This way you get to consider all possibilities before comitting to dispel a spell. If you rely on memory, inevitably you'll run into situations where you forget about that one spell and it comes back to bite you.

As GI Joe once put it: "Knowing is half the battle"

4. Use the 80% rule and know your math

In a game where so much relies on chance, it becomes very necessary to mitigate risk in order to achieve consistent results. If you start making risky rolls (ie. sub 80% success rates), then you must be willing to accept that you're going to have a high degree of variance in your phases. Some phases you'll look like a pro because everything works out, and others you will fail to stop anything.

When you're looking to dispel, you want an 80% chance to successfully take out the spell. Any less, and you'll be that guy that tells his friends after the game "If I'd have just made that roll, it would have been a different game"

A few rules of thumb to simplify things in-game:

- Two dice roll 7 or higher 58% of the time, so think of things in terms of 7's
- Take your wizard's level off the opponent's roll to get you the base number you need to roll. For example, if he rolls a 12, your level 4 needs an 8 or higher. 2 dice rolls 7 58% of the time, so rolling 8 is well below 80% success rate. Therefore, roll 3.
- It's better to dispel one spell with certainty than it is to accept too much risk and potentially have two spells go off unimpeded.

There are, of course, exceptions, but by and large these ideas will keep you on track and avoid the "OMG A SPELL, THROW SOME DISPEL DICE" syndrome.

D

The two things I can do straight away, easy.

Thanks a lot!

[Dreadlordpaul]

For DE with my level 4 my magic phase strategy is, use one power dice out the pool for the spell and sacrifice 2 or 3 guys for the extra powerdice needed to cast it this trick works a treat

[Von Wibble]

You can only use the dagger once per casting attempt, so I find its best to just use 1 less dice than is needed (lowering risk of miscasts and probably giving me an extra spell attempt per phase) for each spell. Starting with Power of Darkness of course.

[Capt._Jaelinek]

Bump for a very informative post! I really like the idea of having cards for your opponents spells.

As a DE player we have a few gimmicks with the dagger and power of darkness, but our mages are prime targets for it.

So my question to you lore masters is, how do you deal with RIP spells? Do you dispel at all costs and let a big spell through or let it go and dispel it at the lower value next turn?

Question 2, how many and what levels do you like your mages? Let's assume a 2000pt and a 3000pt game.

Thanks

[Von Wibble]

A lot depends on the situation

If the opponent casts a nasty RIP spell that won't affect me too badly this turn (but will if I leave it), and still has his most game affecting spell left to cast, assuming I am capable of stopping only one of them I will let the RIP spell through and dispel it next phase. I did this lst game with empire against Vampire counts, allowing curse of years on my greatswords in order to prevent him raising a load of troops (and healing his necromancer lord general). I then dispelled it next turn. It cost me less dice too as he cast way above the casting value (and had +6 to cast).

At 2500 points I would say again its army dependant, but I tend to think of more than 8 levels of wizard as too many points on magic (unless there is a very specific strategy attached), 6-7 levels as a magic heavy army (my Tomb Kings tend to have 3 level 2s plus casket for example), 4-5 levels as fairly typical (a level 3/4 with possible support). 2 levels or below is a bit of a risk. But as I say some armies like both undeads generally need quite a lot, whilst an army like empire can get away with a little bit if necessary.

[Brewmaster_D]

Great question regarding the RiP spells Capt_Jaelinek!

As Von Wibble mentioned, this can really be boiled down to the situation. Further to that, it can also fall under point #3 of magic defense "Focus on stopping the worst spell(s), not every spell". What I mean by this is that when you are evaluating the threat produced by a RiP spell, several things should be considered, and worked into the equation when you're determining what the "worst" spell is:

- What effect will it have this turn? (The most obvious)
- What effect will it have in my turn if I choose not to dispel it?
- What effect(s) do I want to achieve with my next magic phase?

For example, if the effect is manageable this turn, but must be dispelled next turn, and you have a phase where you're banking on some combat buffs, then the threat level of the RiP spell is greatly increased, despite it having little effect immediately. In this case, it might be worthwhile to dispel it.

However, if the situation is the same but you've managed to achieve a combo charge reducing the need for combat buffs, then it is probably manageable to sacrifice some power dice in your own phase to remove the spell, allowing you to prioritize your current dispelling on more immediate threats.

Unfortunately there are no formulas here - it is necessary to work through this train of thought and really think critically about what the short and long term effects are.

D

[Capt._Jaelinek]

So, as a follow up question. The vagaries of the magic phase provide anywhere from 2-12 dice with 7 average. Each lore is a bit different but on average each spell needs around a 10 to cast (Fire 9+, Metal 10+, Shadow 11+). Assuming around 6 spells per army that equates to just over 1 die per spell, but each spell really needs 3 dice to cast on average. So, is the concensus that you will only really get to cast 2-3 spells per turn?

A poor turn (2's) will limit you to 1 maybe 2 spells. A 12 will allow for 3-4, maybe 5 spells.

Spell selection becomes critical as you need to decide on the Bully or Trickle methods described above. Since spell selection is random, unless you roll multiples (more on that in a bit), aren't you banking on the signature spells first with the hope of a better spell? Do you guys build your army lists this way?

As for the multiples. A level 4 has a much greater chance of getting to chose a spell or 2 than a level 1 or 2. So what kind of level configurations do you take to have the best chance of getting what you want? (e.g. 1 Lvl 4 and a Lvl 1 or 2, or lots of Lvl 1 or 2s)

As for lores, do you focus on 1 or maybe 2 lores, or do you try to spread the wealth and take a different lore for each caster?

Sorry for the random questions, but magic tactics are by far the weakest part of my game.

[excessiveswagger]

The idea people have for running 2 level 4s is a good one as they get to cast useful spells. Its also worth pointing out as useful for another reason. With two level 4s you can afford to risk one rolling those one dice dispels your opponent uses to tease out dispel dice. Since it wont matter if he fails due to not enough power as you have a backup you can go for those weenie spells without blowing too much dice on them. You only fail 1/3 of the time anyway so statistically you should be able to get off 2 one dice dispels without an auto fail. This makes your dispel phase much better.

Now for my own thoughts on the waaagh magic

Night goblin shamans are absolutely amazing and the most efficient casters for their points in the game IMO. Mushroom dice turns them all into powerhouses. A level 4 orc shaman with two level 2 night goblin shamans is a force to be reckoned with. People whine a bit about waagh spells but itchy nuisance, vindictive glare, gift of the spider god, sneaky stabbing, foot of gork and hand of gork are all excellent spells that can often find use at any point in the game.
Sure they dont have purple sun, dwellers, mindrazor etc but people need to focus on the idea that they have many useful spells rather than a couple of super ones.

Synergy between orc and goblin shamans is great. A tactic I use (and I'm sure many others do) is to initially do all casting with the goblins. 5 out of their 6 spells cots less than 10 to cast and a boosted vindictive glare is only 10+ for 3D6 S3 hits. This means with magic mushrooms you can get away with casting many goblin spells on only a single dice do get casting results in the 8-9 range provided you don't suffer not enough power. Your opponent then has 2 options. He can try and dispel them, but using only a single dice even with a level 4 is a huge risk so to be safe he needs two thus wasting two dice for your one. He can also opt to let it through, letting you cast for only one dice and giving you a 1/3 chance of stealing one of his dice to get it right back! If you are worried about failing casting use two dice on the slightly larger goblin spells like vindictive glare. Using two dice + mushroom on a level two will typically get you a result in the 11-13 range, again forcing your opponent to use three dice to be confident of stopping it. You can then cast the last spell on one dice knowing that his casting will be over for the round regardless.

This cheap, efficient casting and the sneaky stealing attribute often means when you get to your orc casting you have a good ratio of your power dice to his dispel, letting you get off those important hand and foot of gorks. And if you had an unlucky round of goblin magic? Well thats what power stones are for... and you cant win them all anyway.

Smart casting with waaagh magic can give you a powerful magic phase, and curse of the bad moon is kind of like purple sun, dwellers etc anyway and even lets you choose the attribute

[Von Wibble]

So, as a follow up question. The vagaries of the magic phase provide anywhere from 2-12 dice with 7 average. Each lore is a bit different but on average each spell needs around a 10 to cast (Fire 9+, Metal 10+, Shadow 11+). Assuming around 6 spells per army that equates to just over 1 die per spell, but each spell really needs 3 dice to cast on average. So, is the concensus that you will only really get to cast 2-3 spells per turn?

A poor turn (2's) will limit you to 1 maybe 2 spells. A 12 will allow for 3-4, maybe 5 spells.

Spell selection becomes critical as you need to decide on the Bully or Trickle methods described above. Since spell selection is random, unless you roll multiples (more on that in a bit), aren't you banking on the signature spells first with the hope of a better spell? Do you guys build your army lists this way?

As for the multiples. A level 4 has a much greater chance of getting to chose a spell or 2 than a level 1 or 2. So what kind of level configurations do you take to have the best chance of getting what you want? (e.g. 1 Lvl 4 and a Lvl 1 or 2, or lots of Lvl 1 or 2s)

As for lores, do you focus on 1 or maybe 2 lores, or do you try to spread the wealth and take a different lore for each caster?

Sorry for the random questions, but magic tactics are by far the weakest part of my game.

Well, first of all for some armies a double 1 can actually be a very good result. Take my tomb kings with casket and hierophant - I get D3 extra dice so I now have 4 dice to his 1. If I throw 2 dice at 2 spells (boosted by D3 for the Hierophant so casting value up to 10 or 11 is a reasonable chance for a l4) then he can't stop either with just 1 dispel dice - I get 2 spells through (or 1 expensive, potentially game affecting spell).
Now, if I'd rolled 12, not only would I gain nothing from the D3 dice from the casket (or in some armies case, multiple channels, Banner of Sorcery, Teclis), I'd have an opponent with 6 dispel dice. He can use those to stop my best spells. Now, for a trickle phase that's still good as I probably pull off a couple, maybe 3 spells, but a bully phase will only get teh weaker spells through and chances are the killer will be stopped.
Imo the worst result is 1 and 6 as you only get 1 more power dice and the opponent gets plenty of dispel dice.

Spell selection is certainly important, as you want to have spells that are effective in all turns of the game. This is why imo you should have a lore with a great signature spell and lore effect, considering other spells in the lore after this. When taking multiple wizards, focusing on a lore is a good idea if there is a spell in that lore you really, really want to get. If you have, say a L2 and L4, have L2 go first when choosing spells. If he rolls the best spell you want, swap it for the signature (even if he gets a double you can do this). Then have the level 4 roll his spells - you'd have to get very unlucky not to have the best spell for him.

With different lores I'd say this is because you want different roles. Unless you have 2 or more high level wizards it becomes even more important to be happy with the signature spell, as there's a good chence you'll get it.