old one eyes rampage

[Khorneflakes]

is it really possible for old one eye, using berserk rampage, to get 12 attacks against an immoblised vehicle? it says for every successful to hit roll he makes an additional attack. you dont roll to hit an immobised vehicle, it automatic

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Well you need a "roll" to automatically succeed it don't you?
This has come again on different matters and the concensus is that you "make the roll" as long as other rules are considered.

[Khorneflakes]

there is no roll thou, why would you roll if no matter what came up is a hit? a 1 is normally a fail but you wood class it as a hit?

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Automatic success doesn't suddenly mean automatic failure just because you don't need to actually roll the die to figure out the result.

Just out of curiosity, though, what was Old One Eye attacking where the first 6 S10 2d6 penetration autohits weren't enough against?

[Khorneflakes]

he was attacking a land raider full of terms. i thought 12 hits was a bit much! so i questioned it and he said thats what he gets but looking at it last nite it still doesnt seam rite. if he needs to roll to hit models to get his ability to activate then automatic hits require no dice to roll at all so he cant get the bonus hits

[TheGreatDalmuti]

The only thing I a can remember coming close was the old rending and being allowed to actually roll in orde for you to see if you got any sixes.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

...it still doesnt seam rite.

What doesn't seem right to me is trying to claim that automatic success somehow means automatic failure in your eyes.

[wyvirn]

Well since the to hit chart reads 'D6 roll needed-> automatic' (in chart form on page 63), and there is no reason to skip the roll RAW, I would have to say that OOE does get the extra attacks. People skip the step because it is irrelevant in virtually every case, and that's become the norm. But technically, OOE would get 2X attacks.
Also, between charging and crushing claws, OOE could get 16 attacks in one turn.

side note: does that mean that an immobilized vehicle is automatically exploded when attacked by a model with blood talons due to an infinite number of attacks? Assuming it can pen, of course.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Blood Talons need wounds, not just hits. Of course, with S6 and re-rolls that's rarely an issue against normal infantry! But against vehicles, they can't ever get extra attacks at all.

[DoctorTom]

There's been an old precedent for automatic success = not rolling, but that seems to have changed now. Back with the earlier Chaos Codex, Tzeentch Sorcerers would automatically succeed with psychic tests. We know that an automatic success does not mean that you avoid Perils of the Warp since you could still roll snake eyes. So, by RAW you would still need to roll to determine Perils. This was FAQ'd though that they would not have to roll Perils. They didn't word it that it was an automatic avoiding Perils, but that you don't roll if it's an automatic success. This example had been trotted out in the arguments about Calgar choosing to automatically succeed, but they didn't deal with that issue until much, much later. With the new Chaos Codex, this FAQ question/answer disappeared, so it's not out there as precedent any more.

Now, they have the FAQ answer for Marneus Calgar choosing to succeed at a Morale Check as not having to take wounds from No Retreat!, so now they're treating an automatic success (or at least choosing to have an automatic success) as still having been a roll. If automatic success meant not counting as rolling, then the answer about no retreat wounds for Marneus Calgar would have been the other way around.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I'm pretty sure they just rule in favor of Calgar regardless of the underlying reasoning. (And that argument keyed more on whether choosing to succeed counted as automatically succeeding rather than on whether or not a roll was made; if he'd simply automatically made the roll he'd've triggered No Retreat without necessitating any ensuing argument - until they FAQ'd it in his favor anyway.)

I remember the ancient Mark of Tzeentch precedent differently. Basically GW ruled Psychic Hoods to work on MoT but not on Warlocks, drawing a distinction between succeeding automatically and not having to roll, with no actual rolling of dice occurring in either case. I thought it pretty weird at the time, but it makes more sense to me now; the wording of the psychic hood just caught some more exceptions than they'd intended. That precedent would still support OOE getting his extra attacks, for the record.

[Khorneflakes]

im not saying automatic failure.

for every successful To Hit roll.......make an extra attack etc etc. there is no rolling of dice, what would be the point? he hits automatically against the vehicle, therefore if he doesnt roll to hit he cant activate his special rule to get more hits.

[wyvirn]

Would you care to cite where it says you don't need to roll if the result is already known? I agree that common courtesy says to skip it, but I don't think it has any bearing on the rules. Also, why would he get the attacks from a WS1 enemy, but not a WS0 one who is easier to hit?

[Khorneflakes]

how about fearless troops? you dont make them roll for morale tests for them...... p75 small rule book
characteristics tests with a value of 0 auto fail........ p8 small rule book
ws0 models are auto hit in combat ........p7 small rule book
models out of range in the shooting phase auto miss ..........p17 small rule book
a lascannon that wounds auto penetrates a 2+ save, do you still take an armour save? ........p20 small rule book
units that are immune to pinning are hit by a shot that causes them to take a pinning test, do they take it? p31 small rule book
all these are automatic results

also in fantasy

a double six when casting a spell is auto cast, can you dispel it?
unbreakable troops that lost combat?
the watchtower mission, the player not in the tower auto takes the first turn, no roll off

if you dont roll the dice you cant get any benefit from it

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Look either he succeds to hit and then he gets extra attacks or he fails and doesn't. You treat him like he failed. And since you roll no dice you treat him like he failed automatically! That is what the others where telling you

[ErictheGreen]

how about fearless troops? you dont make them roll for morale tests for them...... p75 small rule book

You do not roll morale tests for fearless troops because they automatically pass (i.e. they are considered to have rolled the amount needed on the dice, regardless of modifier)

characteristics tests with a value of 0 auto fail........ p8 small rule book

Characteristics tests are always "roll lower than X". Since X is a 0 value, you cannot pass the characteristic test and automatically fail.

ws0 models are auto hit in combat ........p7 small rule book

So you are arguing that Old One Eye would not get extra attacks against WS0 models?

models out of range in the shooting phase auto miss ..........p17 small rule book

because they are out of range...so if they shot the bullet wouldn't get there...

a lascannon that wounds auto penetrates a 2+ save, do you still take an armour save? ........p20 small rule book

No, because AP2 ignores the armour of the model in question, there is no automatic fail.

units that are immune to pinning are hit by a shot that causes them to take a pinning test, do they take it? p31 small rule book

no, because they are immune to pinning, so don't take a test. there is no automatic pass.

all these are automatic results
...

you haven't actually made an argument, just cited where there are automatic successes and failures in the game system (and in some cases, are wrong).

Fantasy is an entirely different game system, so we'll ignore those points.

OOE automatically hits stationary vehicles. That is, he is considered to sucessfully roll a hit without having to roll a hit. So yes, OOE gets 12 hits against stationary vehicles. Against anything that isn't a land raider, monolith or superheavy it's a moot point because you won't need 12 hits. You're clutching at straws and while it may "not seem right", thems the rules. OOE is hideously overpriced as it is, and you're taking this away from him? shame on you!

[TheGreatDalmuti]

There is a reason he is overpriced. He is so old and prices have gone up so many times since he appeared...

[Vipoid]

Just out of curiosity, though, what was Old One Eye attacking where the first 6 S10 2d6 penetration autohits weren't enough against?

I was going to ask that...

[wyvirn]

how about fearless troops? you dont make them roll for morale tests for them...... p75 small rule book
characteristics tests with a value of 0 auto fail........ p8 small rule book
ws0 models are auto hit in combat ........p7 small rule book
models out of range in the shooting phase auto miss ..........p17 small rule book
a lascannon that wounds auto penetrates a 2+ save, do you still take an armour save? ........p20 small rule book
units that are immune to pinning are hit by a shot that causes them to take a pinning test, do they take it? p31 small rule book
all these are automatic results

also in fantasy

a double six when casting a spell is auto cast, can you dispel it?
unbreakable troops that lost combat?
the watchtower mission, the player not in the tower auto takes the first turn, no roll off

if you dont roll the dice you cant get any benefit from it

You forgot a S10 versus a AV 10 vehicle for armor penetration. But you just listed times when success or failure is automatic, not why you would skip those rolls. Secondly, you are oversimplifying the rules, particularly in the fantasy tangent. The only reason people don't roll for these automatic outcomes is time versus information gained, not from a rule in the book.
A counter example to the automaitic pass/fail is reserve rolls with a +1 modifier. Turn 4 you need a 2+ to come in, so you still 'need' to roll, but every outcome produces the same result.

Edit: Better example. A lone IC assaults a unit in difficult terrain exactly 1" away. Since he cannot roll less than 1, he automatically makes it. However, he still rolled for moving through difficult terrain, so he is striking at initiative one.

[ErictheGreen]

i thought natural 1 always fails?