Look back before you look forwards (edition changes)

[Malorian]

My tactics didnt rly change from 7th 8th. Soften the target with shooting. Let big blocks of Spearmen/swordsmen absorb the initial charge and follow up with greatswords, knights, halbs and flaggies in the flank.

I never used War Altars and only used the Tank like twice.

You were one of the nice players then. Extrememly rare in the tournament scene.

Now I basically cannot shoot anymore. Apparently The Empire is becoming an army of ravening berserkers rather than a disciplined, well equipped force.

Do the math. How much did your mortar kill before when it was str 3 and didn't get partials in 7th, and how much does it kill with str 2 and with partials? It's pretty much the same.

"But Malorian, I thought partials were added to help make up for combat happening sooner and larger units?"

That was our first thought but tournament players would put the faming sword spell on the mortar and/or reduce the toughness of the target. The result was crippling to the opponent.

So now in the new book the mortar is truly a support weapon and is still helpful in knocking off a rank before combat while not being over the top if supported by magic.

[IcedCrow]

We all know that to take an item in a tournament, it must be capable of reliably erasing a unit on its own or its not worth its points.

Am I right?



You're math is pretty accurate. The numbers are close. Not exact, but close. However the change twinges people psychologically. Dropping in strength but getting partials is still *dropping in strength*, which is what tweaks people.

[Jind_Singh]

Well I used the mortar yesterday and didn't buff it with spells - just an engineer - who let me subtract FOUR inches from the number shown on the artillery die.

Misfire = misfire, reroll and pray to get 2", 4", or 6"
2" = direct hit
4" = direct hit
6" = 2" deviation, almost a direct hit
8"-10" = most likely a miss unless placing on a massive unit or you get lucky with scatter direction

It helped that I was playing a T3 army with 5+ save - which is pretty standard for core troops from a lot of armies - all the Elves, Goblins, men-at-arms, etc. Sure there are T4 forces with good armour saves - in which games my engineer baby sits another machine instead.


IF I did get access to a spell that reduces the toughness of the enemy or gives me +1 to wound, etc, then the mortar gets better.

However, the Rocket battery - for the extra 20pts, was a lot more fun if not as reliable!

[The bearded one]

- just an engineer - who let me subtract FOUR inches from the number shown on the artillery die.

eh? Am I reading the master engineer's rules wrong? Mine only lets you reroll the artillery dice.

[Balerion]

eh? Am I reading the master engineer's rules wrong? Mine only lets you reroll the artillery dice.

(Without having seen the book) isn't he talking about indirect-firing the war machine using the Engineer's BS of 4?

[vinush]

(Without having seen the book) isn't he talking about indirect-firing the war machine using the Engineer's BS of 4?

It's not 40k we're talking about.

In fantasy you don't subtract BS from the roll of the artillery dice, so you've been playing the game wrong mate.

THE \/ince

[Djekar]

I'm pretty sure the indirect fire rules say that you always scatter, even if you roll a hit - but *that* scatter is reduced by your ballistic skill. I'm not sure that the regular shots benefit if you fire indirectly, just the "hit-scatter".

[Haravikk]

I'm pretty sure the indirect fire rules say that you always scatter, even if you roll a hit - but *that* scatter is reduced by your ballistic skill. I'm not sure that the regular shots benefit if you fire indirectly, just the "hit-scatter".

Correct; it only applies to the scatter for a Hit when firing indirectly, all other scatters go the full amount. Seems silly that it's that specific really, especially when it's not that often you can't see everything on the battlefield anyway, especially with true line of sight. Oh well!

Still, a large template stone thrower is very easy to hit with, and since you're usually targeting big blocks, or just throwing the shot into the middle of a packed area of the table, then you're almost guaranteed to get a good amount of hits per shot. With the smaller template it's easier to find those unfortunate gaps where you hit absolutely nothing at all… turn after turn… or is that just me?

[ihavetoomuchminis]

Not directed at Jind_sigh, but serves a purpose....

I'm amazed how many times people defending something is good (or bad) is just playing the rules wrong.

[The bearded one]

I still think my flame cannon is good.. with 24" there's nothing I can't h.. wait, I'm playing the rules wrong?

[Jind_Singh]

The rocket battery is deployed behind stuff and fires indirectly, as even if it has direct sight it always scatters full distance - the mortar has line of sight to the battlefield and fires direct, so I can subtract the BS from the amount scattered. It's behind a unit of archers in skirmish formation, a hill behind my lines if there is one, in a tower if there is one - or in the front line hidden by archers if nothing handy is around.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

the mortar has line of sight to the battlefield and fires direct, so I can subtract the BS from the amount scattered.

Jind, that rule does not exist. You cannot subtract the ME's BS when firing directly. Even then, he only has one point more BS than the regular crew.

[The bearded one]

The rocket battery is deployed behind stuff and fires indirectly, as even if it has direct sight it always scatters full distance - the mortar has line of sight to the battlefield and fires direct, so I can subtract the BS from the amount scattered. It's behind a unit of archers in skirmish formation, a hill behind my lines if there is one, in a tower if there is one - or in the front line hidden by archers if nothing handy is around.

erhm..

The rocket battery always fires as if it fires indirectly, yes. If it rolls a hit, then you may subtract the BS from the scatter.

The mortar can fire 'directly', but it can't subtract the BS from the amount scattered. This is a misinterpretation. There is only 1, and 1 only, case in which BS may be subtracted from the scatter: when firing indirectly and rolling HIT. In every single other case BS is NOT subtracted from the scatter.

[Jind_Singh]

Good to know! Prior to Empire coming out I've been using 2 spear chukkas for better part of 3 or 4 years - I should read warmachine section again!!

[Aluinn]

The most disappointing thing is however that crossbowmen/handgunners/pistoliers are so utterly overcosted. The common argument for raising Combat cores was that they would benefit more from the 3 altars and warrior priests. Our shooting troops does not benefit (probably to avoid players fielding too many gunlines), which seems an open gap in the rules as they have no synergy apart from stand/shoot as a detachment and just seems costed so badly they aint worth taking. Same with pistoliers. Their shooting will due to movement/long range/multiple shots hit 7's and they dont get +1 attack for having two weapons anymore. Fairly useless for their cost.

I don't have the book yet (though I've given my friend's a read-over), as I've not been playing Empire recently, but don't the missile troop detachments gain flaming attacks when the priest in the parent unit casts Soulfire? If so, that is actually a rather big deal, because flaming shooting is one of the most reliable ways to get rid of some of the scariest monsters in the game (e.g. shoot them with random flaming shots, remove regen, then fire your cannons, and you're doing as well as Dwarfs with their fancypants flaming war machines). But, again, I'm not sure if the flaming attacks are one of the rules that are passed on from Regimental units to detachments.

[Jind_Singh]

Good to know! Prior to Empire coming out I've been using 2 spear chukkas for better part of 3 or 4 years - I should read warmachine section again!!

EDIT: Just read entire section again, thanks for pointing it out people!

[ihavetoomuchminis]

Good to know! Prior to Empire coming out I've been using 2 spear chukkas for better part of 3 or 4 years - I should read warmachine section again!!

EDIT: Just read entire section again, thanks for pointing it out people!

Don't worry mate, you just had a Fantasy/40k rules crossing. Not as unusual as it seems to be.