new griffon model vs the previous model.

[loveless]

Claiming we see things through rose-tinted glasses is hardly just an opinion: it's a judgement.

Er...I was wondering if people enjoyed it because they had first seen it when they were younger and they had a love of it based on nostalgia. Things that seem cool when you're younger often seem silly to people who view them when they're older - I've several old toys and such that simply don't compare to more recent offerings (certain transformers, Batman action figures, etc.), but I still enjoy and in some cases prefer my old toys to the new ones. Looking at a quality perspective, I can tell you the new ones are better designed, better formed, and often better painted. This doesn't lessen my enjoyment of the old things, and I probably would defend the old things if they were challenged.

In other words - I wonder if people are defensive of that particular model because they're so used to it or have special feelings attributed to it. I'd say there are definite improvements in sculpt quality and detailing in the new kit, and my assumption that people preferred the old one due to fond memories of first laying eyes on the metal DC & KF. I still think the metal version was a terrible model, but I'm interested in what exactly drew so many people to it and what pushes so many away from the new one.

[aldo_milo]

Well i'm wondering on what grounds you consider the Griffon too large. Traditionally comments on designs of mythological beasts in these contexts (i.e. supposed limitations on form) hang on biology- i.e. what is biologically possible- how a body is able to support weight, how it might feed, those kinds of things or it could be in regard to what the general consensus of the sources is (so if for example to take a very unlikely prospect, someone objected to the IOB griffon based on the fact that griffons are almost universally eagle-fronted rather than having the front half of a falcon). For the purposes of your claim that the Griffon is too large, i assumed you were basing it on something like that. If not is your argument then one of pure aesthetic taste? If so, while there's no accounting for it, i think i can put up a pretty comprehensive defence of the new griffon compared to the previous two metal models, so if that's the grounds we're working from in this debate, just say the word and i'll change my approach

Dr Death

as someone said before, maybe i'm taking the description of half eagle/half lion to literally, but that, and just about every other depiction or description of a griffon i've seen, they don't appear to be as large as the new model depicts them.

for example the hyppogriffs shown in harry potter are slightly smaller than i imagine a griffon to be. (about 1.5x the size of the hyppogriff)

[Dr.Zahnfleisch]

I don't like it.

It's basically a "must release a huge monster-kit for each faction" - move from GW. The pose is pretty static and it's way too bulky for what I imagined a griffon to be. Birds should be slender and graceful...this one looks more like a chicken than anything.

"The Island of Blood" - griffon is way superior in my opinion.

[aldo_milo]

the more i look at it, the more the model grows on me. (but it's like i say about acquired tastes. if you have to acquire a taste for it, it must not be very good.)
no matter how much i look at it though, the griffon's head is always going to look to small.

i would like the model. other than the head, i like the sculpt over all...it's just the size and demensions throwing it off for me. less width, a tad more length, and a slightly larger head, and i think it would be perfect. a lion is a sleek, creature, an eagle is a sleek creature, so the combination should be sleek looking not...bulky. just my opinion though.

and i'm naming mine george

[Kiras of the flame]

compared to the older model this looks less goofy and more terror causing...

also the option of getting a two headed griffon makes me feel a bit giddy tbh... It's so insane I love it

[aldo_milo]

compared to the older model this looks less goofy and more terror causing...

also the option of getting a two headed griffon makes me feel a bit giddy tbh... It's so insane I love it

after all, two tiny heads are better than one! lol

[DaemonReign]

I love the model aesthethically speaking.
It's a shame they had to make it that big though.
My Empire playing friend already had the old metal DeathClaw-model, which looks like a hatchling now.
We also have two of the IoB Gryphons about to be converted with Empire-riders, and while being awesome models they'll be 'off' compared to the new Gryphon.
Some increased dimensions would have been fine, and understandible, they just went a little tiny bit too far IMO.

[Dr Death]

the more i look at it, the more the model grows on me. (but it's like i say about acquired tastes. if you have to acquire a taste for it, it must not be very good.)
no matter how much i look at it though, the griffon's head is always going to look to small.

i would like the model. other than the head, i like the sculpt over all...it's just the size and demensions throwing it off for me. less width, a tad more length, and a slightly larger head, and i think it would be perfect. a lion is a sleek, creature, an eagle is a sleek creature, so the combination should be sleek looking not...bulky. just my opinion though.

It's a good point about acquired tastes, and one i generally share myself, but I think there are cases when ones initial reaction to a model (good or bad) can change with further analysis of the details. The head for instance i think looks smaller because it's lying flush to the neck. I actually think it's a good size, particularly given GW's (particularly Trish Carden's) tendancy to give monsters ridiculously oversized heads (see the dark elf dragon/hydra for prime examples). The old Deathclaw was extremely front heavy in my view with a head that appeared almost as big as its entire rear body, while the 6th edition metal griffon's head i don't think was that much bigger relatively to the size of the body than this one, it was just more detatched from the main body.

You may have a point about the sleekness, then again neither the eagle nor the lion is the sleekest in it's respective class- lions particularly can get fairly chunky, even around the gut, and frankly this new griffon model has one of the most sculpted big-cat physiques i've ever seen, like the members of the panthera genus spend their spare time down the gym instead of sleeping like normal cats. But you've also got to consider the mythological basis. The griffon is composed of the king of beasts- the lion, and the king of birds- the eagle, the symbolism is clear: the griffon is lord of earth and sky. Therefore i think it's right that the griffon has a bit of an inflated presence, that it is more than just a predatory animal.

There are things i dislike about the model, don't get me wrong- the chest armour rides too high, the feathered flares also detract from it, but those aside i really really do like this beasty

Dr Death

[jtrowell]

I love the model aesthethically speaking.
It's a shame they had to make it that big though.
My Empire playing friend already had the old metal DeathClaw-model, which looks like a hatchling now.
We also have two of the IoB Gryphons about to be converted with Empire-riders, and while being awesome models they'll be 'off' compared to the new Gryphon.
Some increased dimensions would have been fine, and understandible, they just went a little tiny bit too far IMO.

Suggestion: use the new model as Deathclaw itself, supposed to be the biggest imperial Griffon, and use the two converted IoB models as normal griffons, but put them on chariot bases (the model position will have it fill the base like if it was made for him if you lower the angle slightly, the current 50x50 base being somewhat too small for it)

The old metal Deathclaw could also be used in the same way, or (re)painted gold to be used as the statue on a converted war altar.

[yabbadabba]

-snip-

Or accept that, like most animals, Griffons come in lots of different size and shapes.

[DaemonReign]

Thanks for that advice jtrowell!
Our group have a long-standing tradition of not using Special Characters, so the actual DeathClaw is not something that will be fielded I'm afraid.
Our Empire player already has a scratch-built Waltar, all painted and actually very cool so..
Re-basing the 'smaller' Gryphons.. *meh* It's first and foremost the ancient question of 'going back and redoing stuff' that's getting in the way of that one.
No.. In the end - for the games that are big enough - he'll be sporting 4 Gryphons.. 1 big'un and 3 smaller once buzzing around.. At the moment only 1 out of those 4 is painted so we'll see how it goes.
Basically, it's Yabba's approach being implemented on this matter..

[IcedCrow]

Or accept that, like most animals, Griffons come in lots of different size and shapes.

You *will* accept my opinion of what a creature that doesn't really exists looks like!!! {RAGE RAGE RAGE}

[Frankly]

Guess I'm the only one who likes my warhammer as MINIatures

hahahaha

[aldo_milo]

Thanks for that advice jtrowell!
Our group have a long-standing tradition of not using Special Characters, so the actual DeathClaw is not something that will be fielded I'm afraid.
Our Empire player already has a scratch-built Waltar, all painted and actually very cool so..
Re-basing the 'smaller' Gryphons.. *meh* It's first and foremost the ancient question of 'going back and redoing stuff' that's getting in the way of that one.
No.. In the end - for the games that are big enough - he'll be sporting 4 Gryphons.. 1 big'un and 3 smaller once buzzing around.. At the moment only 1 out of those 4 is painted so we'll see how it goes.
Basically, it's Yabba's approach being implemented on this matter..

or say that the smaller ones are adolescent griffons maybe? big enough and well trained enough to ride, but still not fully grown.

[Urgat]

Use the smaller ones as pegasus? I always thought pegs didn't fit with the Empire visual anyway.

[Tygre]

Use the smaller ones as counts as Demigryph

[DaSpaceAsians]

As for say Imrik, he isn't riding Minaithnir, oh no, he's straddling Enola Gay!

Dr Death

That would be so awesome

[Torga_DW]

Use the smaller ones as pegasus? I always thought pegs didn't fit with the Empire visual anyway.

Yeah, thats one of the things i thought about the new empire book, it was a missed chance to solidify their griffon theme. I know the imperial zoo and all, but they've always struck me as having a griffon vibe, moreso now with the dgk. Oh well, i'm not in charge of anything, and probably better off that way.

[aldo_milo]

why don't you guys think that pegasii fit the empire feel? griffons come off as more aggressive yes, but i don't see the empire as necessarily aggressive.

[Urgat]

It's not about aggressive or not. It's about looks. It's merely my opinion though, I just don't think it fits the imagery.