Warriors of Chaos summary

[BattleofLund]

The artwork in the rulebook is different (and better).

This I may have missed. What page?

Edit: the Kludburgh Savages?

[Avian]

I don't own the oversized rulebook, but it's in the big chaos invasion thingy in the back. Where it lists all the various chaos forces. There is a line drawing of a Forsaken that looks a lot better than what we get in the army book.

[lbecks]

How is that in any way relevant?

the only thing they have in common with Chosen is the minimum number of models per unit

They share common points costs. That's relevant to rules and also how GW tends to pack certain things as models. The 7th edition chaos book description pretty much says Forsaken are like Chosen but got bad gifts instead of good gifts. It's plausible to think that GW sees them as 2 sides of the same coin and may possibly put them in the same box.

[Avian]

Given that Chosen are basically Warriors with extra bling, that would be considerably easier and cheaper to pull off. Look at what they did with regular GK Terminators and Paladins, for example. They have basically the same stats and options, so their differences are represented with variant heads and some add-on bitz.

But, to make an extensive list. Here are the things Chosen share with Forsaken and Warriors.

Forsaken
- minimum unit size
- points cost
- common stats: strength, toughness, wounds, leadership

Warriors
- starting equipment (hand weapon and chaos armour)
- common stats: movement, ballistic skill, strength, toughness, wounds, initiative, attacks, leadership
- Mark of Khorne / Slaanesh / Tzeentch / Nurgle options
- shield option
- additional hand weapon option
- great weapon option
- halberd option
- musician command option
- standard bearer command option
- champion command option

Now, which units are really two sides of the same coin, and which are two sides of two very different coins?

[vorag1]

Thanks for the round up Avian. What I find a bit odd is that there aren't many (any!) solid rumours for completely 'new' units. Chariot/warshrine, Dragon Ogres and Forsaken are all existing units. Maybe the mystery 'big' kit? Looking at all the 8th ed releases, there has been mostly new units, with very little replacing of existing ones - except Orcs and Goblins, so there is a slight precedence there I guess. I would just be very surprised is they only released regular Dragon Ogres/Chariots/Forsaken/Chaos Dragons, with no added twist to them at least... traditionally we haven't really known until just before... So I guess we'll just have to wait and see!

[lbecks]

Given that Chosen are basically Warriors with extra bling, that would be considerably easier and cheaper to pull off. Look at what they did with regular GK Terminators and Paladins, for example. They have basically the same stats and options, so their differences are represented with variant heads and some add-on bitz.

But, to make an extensive list. Here are the things Chosen share with Forsaken and Warriors.

Forsaken
- minimum unit size
- points cost
- common stats: strength, toughness, wounds, leadership

Warriors
- starting equipment (hand weapon and chaos armour)
- common stats: movement, ballistic skill, strength, toughness, wounds, initiative, attacks, leadership
- Mark of Khorne / Slaanesh / Tzeentch / Nurgle options
- shield option
- additional hand weapon option
- great weapon option
- halberd option
- musician command option
- standard bearer command option
- champion command option

Now, which units are really two sides of the same coin, and which are two sides of two very different coins?

In the past GW made entirely different Chosen metal models. They even made metal halberd add-ons for the regular warrior kit making the Chosen metal models somewhat superfluous. It's clear in their model practices GW sees Chosen as a dime to the warriors' nickel. And in the fluff the Forsaken as the tails to that dime's heads.

[Avian]

Thanks for the round up Avian. What I find a bit odd is that there aren't many (any!) solid rumours for completely 'new' units. Chariot/warshrine, Dragon Ogres and Forsaken are all existing units. Maybe the mystery 'big' kit? Looking at all the 8th ed releases, there has been mostly new units, with very little replacing of existing ones - except Orcs and Goblins, so there is a slight precedence there I guess. I would just be very surprised is they only released regular Dragon Ogres/Chariots/Forsaken/Chaos Dragons, with no added twist to them at least... traditionally we haven't really known until just before... So I guess we'll just have to wait and see!

Well, it's not problematic that we haven't heard about any new units, it's quite common for solid rumours on new units to show up late (with the Empire, for example, there were plenty of early rumours, but they were all made up). The problem is that if Hastings' rumours are correct, then that doesn't leave a lot of room for new units. If none of the three named kits have no extra variant builds, that leaves only one new kit that could make brand new units.

But maybe they are going with the Orcs & Goblins / Tomb King approach and not releasing all new units right away.

Or maybe they consider Forsaken / Warshrines "new" because they don't have any models currently.

In the past GW made entirely different Chosen metal models. They even made metal halberd add-ons for the regular warrior kit making the Chosen metal models somewhat superfluous. It's clear in their model practices GW sees Chosen as a dime to the warriors' nickel. And in the fluff the Forsaken as the tails to that dime's heads.

Heh! We shall see, then. If I am wrong, you may mail me your hat and I will eat it.

[MyNameDidntFit]

Now, which units are really two sides of the same coin, and which are two sides of two very different coins?

The idiom "two sides of the same coin" does not mean "are as close as possible to being the same", it can often mean quite the opposite. In the case of Chosen/Forsaken, the coin is the gifts of Chaos; one side [Chosen] gets the good while the other side [Forsaken] gets the bad.

With Warriors it's less related to that idiom and more a simple "Chosen are superior to Warriors" straightforward shift.

[Avian]

The idiom "two sides of the same coin" does not mean "are as close as possible to being the same", it can often mean quite the opposite.

In which case it wouldn't make sense to put them in the same box, would it? You put similar units in the same box, which is why Empire has a box that makes Swordsmen, Spearmen and Halberdiers, instead of Swordsmen, Flagellants and Demigriffon Knights.

[Grimmeth]

Pure speculation, but looking at the Vargheist/Crypt Horror kit could we potentially see a Dragon Ogre variant?
That would add another unit at least without needing yet another plastic kit?

[Avian]

It could, but the VC equivalents don't have any equipment options. As far as I can see, you only get the exact number of pieces to build each variant, whereas Dragon Ogres would require two sets of arms, assuming they keep their weapon options. Dragon Ogres are also rather bigger than the VC critters. The Empire monstrous cavalry box builds Demigriffon Knights and nothing else, as a comparison.

So while a DO box could feasibly build a variant unit (such as for example Chosen Knights on Daemonic Steeds), it's not terribly likely as I see it.

[Grimmeth]

It could, but the VC equivalents don't have any equipment options. As far as I can see, you only get the exact number of pieces to build each variant, whereas Dragon Ogres would require two sets of arms, assuming they keep their weapon options. Dragon Ogres are also rather bigger than the VC critters. The Empire monstrous cavalry box builds Demigriffon Knights and nothing else, as a comparison.

So while a DO box could feasibly build a variant unit (such as for example Chosen Knights on Daemonic Steeds), it's not terribly likely as I see it.

That is true, I didn't think about it like that.
I'm not sure the Chaos army list needs more troops anyway, new rules for some troops definitely, and some better internal balance. But there's a lot of options within the existing book as it is.

[TsukeFox]

It will be something new for sure (the big kit). Now to hope it is a monster instead of another ''wacky car''...

"Ancient Forces of Evil-!!grant me the power to Corrupt & Pimp this Car into a tool of Chaos!!"

[akenatum]

kinda a bit wishlisting here mmore than anything would like to see the dragon ogres to be very similar to the current shagoth and a new shagoth that is bigger meaner and punchy... (not really gonna happen though i guess) that out of the way i am very currious to see how gw are going to be nerfing the woc slightly to bring them in line with the other 8th ed books rules wise.

[Urgat]

Just a question, regarding the chosen/forsaken dual kit argument: do they often make infantry dual kits for two different infantry choices in WFB?

[Haravikk]

Just a question, regarding the chosen/forsaken dual kit argument: do they often make infantry dual kits for two different infantry choices in WFB?

Not really, but I think there is enough similarity to justify it since the heads and arms are the main difference. I mean, when it comes down to it the Chosen could easily be accommodated by the kit, depending on how different they're intended to be; alternate armour pieces for example.

I suppose it would make sense, as the current warriors kit, while nice, don't cover the options very well at all. In particular a lot of people like Great Weapons or more usually Halberds on their warriors, but the kit doesn't include those options. So an update may be due. If they follow the trend, then it would be reasonable to assume a £15 kit of 10, which could justify optional bits for Forsaken or Chosen. More pessimistically though I wouldn't be surprised if GW used it as an excuse to make a £25.50 kit for warriors, chosen and forsaken in one go.

[MyNameDidntFit]

In which case it wouldn't make sense to put them in the same box, would it? You put similar units in the same box, which is why Empire has a box that makes Swordsmen, Spearmen and Halberdiers, instead of Swordsmen, Flagellants and Demigriffon Knights.

But they aren't irreconcilably different. Regardless, my comment was mostly on the use of the idiom.

Personally, I'd rather see Chosen in their own kit--they're meant to be taller and broader than CW, with more ornate armour. If they were in the same kit, they would likely be running off of the same legs/torsos, meaning that there could be no size difference. As far as I see it, they should share their weapon choices and the general 'Chaos armour' aesthetic. Beyond that the Chosen should look altogether more 'chaotically regal' (being that they are described as "truly the nobility" of WoC) than their lesser brethren... something that a helmet switch-out doesn't achieve.

A Chaos Warriors/Forsaken kit could work, given options for mutated arms/legs/heads with a couple of mutated torsos, as not every Forsaken needs to look like he's half-Spawn--it might only be his mind that is warped--but in the end you're looking at having a lot of unused pieces in any kit that matches up with Forsaken.

What I guess I'm getting at is that I think these three units, while inherently similar, will remain as separate kits.

[furrie]

Pure speculation, but looking at the Vargheist/Crypt Horror kit could we potentially see a Dragon Ogre variant?
That would add another unit at least without needing yet another plastic kit?

Mabey a dual kit with chaos ogres, then the lower body should be different.

[Avian]

Just a question, regarding the chosen/forsaken dual kit argument: do they often make infantry dual kits for two different infantry choices in WFB?

It is fairly common for units that share statlines and/or equipment options.

[Ender Shadowkin]

Chaos Ogres seam to be missing some models too. They have a lot of options that requires some conversions, while you can use Ogre Kingdoms plasitcs, they really need a lot of coverting to match a chaos Aesthetic IMHO. What about a base size shift for forsaken and a dual Ogre Forsaken Kit? Any other way to get an Ogre combo kit? Ogres and Chaos trolls?